Twin charged vs Single

[dsm4fox]

This is going in the general Field Because its more of a general opinion vs a fact.
So Ive seen ALOT of twin charging going on! Everything from 3 cyl subaru engines to v8 mustang KITS... We have a few members of our community that have this idea down like ray peters and his 1g. A few of us have compound turbo's. Even seen a nicely made up custom twin turbo manifold for an evo.. So here is my question. Would you twin charge? how? and why?? I personally have been considering adapting the use of a STS rear turbo with the current turbo system. And basically use it like a compound turbo. But i want all opinions and whys. Not just "35r Turbo because its easy" Would you use a centrifigal supercharger? Twin screw? single turbo? I personally like this topic because i love the rapid power of a smaller turbo but hate the drop off there after ...

 

[ariman]

I vote Single Sequential Variable Geometry turbo. A lot of the new diesels run them and like g4ebguy90 said its like two in one. DualBoost Single Sequential Turbocharger I am ashamed to post something about a fix or repair daily on here but this is a good explanation and diagram.

That single sequential turbo Sound like a good idea

 

[dsm4fox]

Twin Engine 800hp Eagle Talon - 4.6L Twin Turbo! - YouTube

 

[tkelly27]

I have heard of people using a clutch on the supercharger once the turbo has spooled. Much less parasitic drag, and instant boost. Then all you're dealing with is complexity, size constraints, and fabrication. Fun fun.

 

[TopGun8818]

Twin Engine 800hp Eagle Talon - 4.6L Twin Turbo! - YouTube

NICE! However, all that fabrication and he ended up selling it before he could go under 12's He stated he didn't want to get banned from the track but I don't see the point Reminds me of my buddy that produced 575whp on his 2g on FFTEC's mustang dyno - only to get fed up with it (unreliable as heck) and sell it a couple months later. He never ran it because of worrying that he would snap the stock drivetrain. I did however get to drive it a couple of times...man that thing was F-A-S-T!

 

[dsm4fox]

I have grown really fond of the Compound turbo Concept. The REAL compound system.. not some hacked staged system

Actually started ordering a crap load of stuff 3 days ago to start my own!

 

[Myslow420a]

When it comes to 4cyl, maybe even 6's one big turbo is the best, for most setups.

I've never actually seen a 4g63 T-turbo'd in person. It'd be interesting to see.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

When it comes to 4cyl, maybe even 6's one big turbo is the best, for most setups.

I've never actually seen a 4g63 T-turbo'd in person. It'd be interesting to see.

Ya.. so how'd you make this determination, then?

 

[dsm4fox]

When it comes to 4cyl, maybe even 6's one big turbo is the best, for most setups.

I've never actually seen a 4g63 T-turbo'd in person. It'd be interesting to see.

Not quiet sure what it is you're trying to say there.. never seen a 4g63 T-turbo'd in person. Unless you ment T-Turbo'd as running 2 turbo's Im sure you've seen a 4g63t in person somewhere even if you hadnt noticed it!!

 

[AngelOfPassion]

T-turbo'd, twin-turbo'd. C'mon guys .

 

[dsm4fox]

All i know is, Im not doing twin turbo.. Or single turbo..

 

[Nekid]

I've always wanted to look into doing a supercharger and turbo combination (twin-charged).

Two choices:

Put an electric clutch on the supercharger, which is sitting right on the head, and just have it for low-end, turbo for top-end.

or

Keep a decent SMIM, and have the supercharger feed the turbo charger for a compound setup.

I like the idea of the first one for across-the-band power and the sheer fun of a supercharge for street driving.

 

[dsm4fox]

OR Option C ... Larger turbo feeds smaller turbo. Both turbos work UNDER 2:1 Pres ratio THUS never going way out of efficency ranges.... and you get a compounded effect...

The thing about a supercharger is the fact its RPM limited... and then on top of that... remember a supercharger feeding a turbo would be interesting due to the fact that a supercharger uses engine speed period... and if you go to say 6500 rpm and lay off WOT the turbo may shut off but the supercharger is still trying to push 6500rpm air volume into the turbo... IDK seems WRONG to me IMO

And I could be wrong but why put an electric clutch on it? If you used said supercharger on the IN Manifold.. You wouldnt want it to shut off...... You would want it to take the compressed air the turbo is feeding it and compounding it further.. Only issue there is intake temps...
Remember each supercharger works on different RPM ranges...

and!!!!! if you used a smaller charger like a centrifugal there is less rotating mass on the charger and less parasitic losses.. So the need for a clutch at all.. would be useless....

I think personally if you have a turbo car.. the best set up you could use if you wanted top response and amazing power is a compound turbo system.. They are very miss understood...

If you already have a supercharged car with a twin screw like say a cobalt ss... then adding a turbo would be effective... But you would want to set it up so the turbo alters the superchargers intake pressure and holds that, so the supercharger can do its thing. ON top of what the turbo does. Not have them hit some medium or have one turn off or on...

Essentially the twin charged concept with thes supercharger+ a larger turbo is just like a Compound turbo system but with the turbo system you get more control over the forced induction instead of limiting it by rpm and Throttle position only.

BUT the supercharger version has way less back pressure so i guess... its what ever evil you want to live with to make evil power

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Thats kinda what I was thinking. Supercharger is rpm limited. Read the thread of ppl making a supercharge setup for these cars. Thread name " good bye lag?" But I wasn't excited in the least due to a supers limitations.

Go check out a, supercharged car making 6-700 hp. Whats the size of it? Pretty big right? Being rpm limited a super has to be big to make big power.

A super is not practical for a space limited 4cyl. Turds making it much harder to twin charge.

I dont see a, twin charged setup efficiently making much more power than a well setup 16g car.

 

[dsm4fox]

Well if you use a compound turbo, TECHNICALLY you are twin charging it just the same as using a larger turbo and a twin screw charger. The twin screw takes the job of the smaller turbo. and the larger one is not only spooled faster from the twin screw but serves the same purpose in both set ups...

Yeah superchargers are def harder to mount due to you have to revolve around the belt area or use an extension shaft if possible. BUT with turbo's you can remote mount them anywhere.. giving even more flexability..

BUT to say you dont see it having more efficently made power than ANY single 16g car is not really correct.. Not to counter that statement but thats what Im about to do.

If you picture your "well set up 16g car" Then plumb that exhaust into say a 3582r or a 4088r
This said "16g car" gets compressed air from the larger turbo, say around 1 bar and your large turbo never goes beyond 2:1 ratio's.
The 16g you set at 14psi and use the wastegate to control it with spring rate and reference the rise in boost pressure in so it keeps manifold pressure at spring rate+pressure in.

So in this case both turbos make 28psi gauge pressure but neither turbo goes above the work of a 2:1 ratio. and the 16g actually drops down to a 1.5:1 pressure ratio when the larger turbo kicks its full boost..

SO this could reach well over 500-600hp and have alot more efficency than a single 16g car pushing 28psi...

The 16g thinks its working less and getting more air. and the larger turbo thinks its on an engine size closer to a 3.5- 4 liter

IN my opinion a supercharger limits this set up grately by the fact that boost is not consistent from the charger. Its rpm limited and harder to mount. ALSO... twin screw chargers like an eaton.. you are compressing the air charge right before the engine with no aftercooler use

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Well if you use a compound turbo, TECHNICALLY you are twin charging it just the same as using a larger turbo and a twin screw charger. The twin screw takes the job of the smaller turbo. and the larger one is not only spooled faster from the twin screw but serves the same purpose in both set ups...

Yeah superchargers are def harder to mount due to you have to revolve around the belt area or use an extension shaft if possible. BUT with turbo's you can remote mount them anywhere.. giving even more flexability..

BUT to say you dont see it having more efficently made power than ANY single 16g car is not really correct.. Not to counter that statement but thats what Im about to do.

If you picture your "well set up 16g car" Then plumb that exhaust into say a 3582r or a 4088r
This said "16g car" gets compressed air from the larger turbo, say around 1 bar and your large turbo never goes beyond 2:1 ratio's.
The 16g you set at 14psi and use the wastegate to control it with spring rate and reference the rise in boost pressure in so it keeps manifold pressure at spring rate+pressure in.

So in this case both turbos make 28psi gauge pressure but neither turbo goes above the work of a 2:1 ratio. and the 16g actually drops down to a 1.5:1 pressure ratio when the larger turbo kicks its full boost..

SO this could reach well over 500-600hp and have alot more efficency than a single 16g car pushing 28psi...

The 16g thinks its working less and getting more air. and the larger turbo thinks its on an engine size closer to a 3.5- 4 liter

IN my opinion a supercharger limits this set up grately by the fact that boost is not consistent from the charger. Its rpm limited and harder to mount. ALSO... twin screw chargers like an eaton.. you are compressing the air charge right before the engine with no aftercooler use

Well compounded is two turbos to me and twin charge is a turbo and super. Reason why I said twin charge wasn't efficient and would not be much.better than a well done 16g setup. Supercharger is just a restriction to me. If going that far do a compound setup instead of twin charging.

Compound setup (two turbos inline) is the ideal setup when going this route. Thats what I was meaning.

 

[dsm4fox]

I guess you could say that a compound turbo is a twin charge system. Since a twin charger essentially is using two forced induction systems to get two different power ranges to work together. The two turbo's allow quick response and top power outputs..

Im interested in how you could make a centrifugal supercharger replace the larger turbo in this system.
Essentially the larger turbo pressurizes the pipe between it and the smaller turbo. The smaller turbo does its thing, thinking that its starting with that pressure and making it even more compressed.

The reason im interested in how a centrifugal charger would work is because a charger like that starts off small and makes the most amount of peak airflow near redline (as long as the charger is sized properly)

Doing this could get the same effects but not have the back pressure issues from a compound turbo set up..

And the thing I like about a centrifugal charger idea is that those types of chargers have less mass to move internally thus less parasitic loss. Plus flow HUGE amounts of air at lower psi rates like 1000 cfm at 14 psi. and so on. They build their boost gradually though.
I think adding one of those ontop of the quick spooling turbo would basically eliminate the top end drop off of the smaller turbo. But your boost would look like it spikes all the time...
Say you had a supercharger that could give you 14psi and set your turbo to 10 psi.
2600-10psi
3500-13psi
4500-18psi
5500-22psi
6500-24psi
NOT actual numbers but it shows how the psi would literally grow with the supercharger.

 

[ILiveForBoost]

I dont see a, twin charged setup efficiently making much more power than a well setup 16g car.[/QUOTE]

I know this thread is kinda old, but I think this guy is making a few more ponies than your average 16g dsm [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j-qVQwlLEY]Hans Schori Swiss Hillclimb Champion 2011 Mitsubishi EVO RS 800 HP - YouTube[/ame]

Hope the link works, if not just look up Hans Schori evo on youtube =)

 

[tattoos]

her my projekt fore this wintr season ,eaton blower + big turbo all dropped in angine bay and just starting fore tune whit ecuflach/evoscan ...sound grat allready ,cant wait fore snow melt so im can go test driwe