Torn turbo wise, can you help me make up my mind?

[Libila]

Alright here is the situation-
I am in the mode for upgrades but I have this damn delema, called school. I start college soon so money will be tight. Here are my two choices as far as my car goes.

1. Build a 16g powered 2g that will be well supported in a while and have my car be quick but not the fastest around.

2. Go with a 50 trim and keep up with the "big boys" in reno and sac but that will cost more.

Im thinking the 16g would be a better idea and then once I have school all done I can go bigger right? Tell me what you think, and peregrine dont flame me for not being able to keep up with you ok?

Also anyone want to point me in the direction of a good place to find a normal 16g with 2g install kit? Im still open to turbo suggestions also but the price has to be low. Thanks for looking

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

And yes, if you bolt a 20G onto a otherwise bone stock car it runs perfectly honky dorey. Sure its not a big power gain, but its stil significantly faster then the same car on a 14b or 16g. Sure it doesn't have alot of power relative to the maximum potential out put, but who cares? Its faster and just as streetable. And as long as your maxing out your fuel system, the 20g is doing it at a lower boost level and a much colder intake temp. 16g's are good for hot air and pump gas frustration.

 

[Jeffee]

How about u just wait around and find a big28 for cheap... pop it on ur car get ur basics... learn how to tune a smaller turbo... then sell the big28 for about 550 and u maybe lost 100 to 150 after selling it... then decide if u really need 50 trim and if u know what ur doing tuning wise... if u you like how things are goin and have learned how to tune get the 50 trim game over... just take ur time and learn

 

[Libila]

Holly crap that arguement came out of no where! NosLaser- I think its cool that you got your 14b powered car to go that fast but I wont believe it till I see it. Thanks for your advice man but I have no desire to use nitrous. In a way I think its cheating. I mean nitrous is for the extremely high HP cars that cant do a whole lot more to make them faster than they already are. Slapping a kit on a stock car or damn near stock car is the easy way out.

I have made a smart decision here and it will all work out. I just bought a truck as a get around vehicle for the winter. I now have a 50 trim project for the winter. And to clear things up yes I did buy a 16g, and a 14b. I bought them to make money off them. Both turbos I got an incredible deal on and I will profit off them. Im still planning on either a full t3/t4 setup or the RS43, not sure yet. Would you guys like to shed some light on which would be better for what Im looking for? Im talking streetable wise.

 

[midnght]

So you are saying it is def. a 50 trim without even the thought of a 20g?

 

[Libila]

No 20g for me I dont think. Im in the middle of getting all the supporting mods for the big turbo now. It will all be finished by the end of this coming winter.

 

[mccurdy]

I suggest sticking with a BIG lvl 3 16G turbo. Either that or a Big 19C like i got. The 19C is a rare turbo but mine performs great. I got a big boost leak right now and can't boost over 7 psi (which is prolly double according to my MAS) But at 7 psi im already hittin harder than the t25 at like 16 psi. I beat a SS last saturday and a Trans Am before that on minimal supporting mods. I dont even have larger injectors installed yet. But the 19C is bigger than the 18G and has great streetable performance and if its ported flows incredable. Not many people got this turbo so they dont know the benefits it has.

 

[DCJ98GST]

If you do go big without all the supporting mods, make sure you have a good wastegate. Otherwise your boost will be creaping up into a dangerous psi range. If you get a 50 trim you might not want to boost past 12 psi. You may need an external to control the thing at 12 psi, I dont think many internals will hold that low of a boost and not blow open above 23 psi. Anyways do the required research and at a minimum get a 3" turboback, BOV, UICP, and loging device before you slap the thing on there.

 

[tmizer]

I've got the same issue. Big 16 or 50 trim? Engine mods are:

tbc coated, ported, 2mm o.s. big-valve head,
2g pistons, brgs, ported evo manifold, all dfl and/or tbc coated,
Web street cams, AEM gears,
MAFT, 660s, pocketlogger,
RNR 3" o2-eliminator and exhaust,
modded smic w/2.5" LIC&UIC pipes.

I'm literally bolting everything together this weekend as the head was just finished last week, and the block a week before. My goal is a daily driver (downtown urban driving) that pulls early (gotta love A/T's that don't let up on boost) from a stoplight and can occasionally beat my coworker's Mustang (approx 280 whp) and a few pesky WRX's.

So while I did do supporting mods, I did keep the stock rods, so I'm leery of doing a 50 trim, let alone shelling out even more money to get a FMIC. Given the goal above, I'm thinking a big 16g, ported, unclipped.... any (practical/pragmatic) ideas on the conclusion I've drawn?

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

A larger turbo blows colder air at a given PSI and thus does not heat soak your IC as fast. Your stock rods will take the power you will be producing without any sort of problem.

And avoid the 19c like a plague, the only people who like them are those who haven't had a G series turbo, especialy a 20G. They are a terrible design...no offense

 

[TSi999]

Gee waht a lovely thread...

now im more confused about which turbo to get more than evar!!!

 

[tmizer]

Lts, thanks for reiterating what may seem obvious to you, but certainly is not to me. I was looking at 46 and 50 trim compressor maps, and what you said, which is essentially:

T2 = T1+T1*(P.r.^((gamma-1)/gamma )-1)/comp.efficiency

...so, looking at the compressor maps, for a constant pressure ratio of say 2.3 (19 psi gauge) the larger 50 trim can stay within that 78% efficiency island all the way from about 29 to 38 lbs/min. The 46 trim, on the other hand, from about 25 to 31...and it's less than that since the map only shows a 76% island, so lower compressor efficiency, higher outlet temperature....which just makes the 50 trim case more appealing

 

[Libila]

^Bill Nye the Science Guy confused the hell out of me. Its late and Im tired and this argument is all over the place. Im just looking at it this way, 50 trim performance has been proven time and time agian. This also goes for the smaller G series turbos BUT this wont be my daily driver anymore. So in my mind Im thinking about going damn close to all out with this car since it is my hobby. Who knows, maybe if I get everything in with funds to spare..............2.4???

 

[greathuskie]

im going to be running a fully ported and polished head, crower valvetrain, HKS 264/272 cams, and a crower/wiseco 6 bolt motor....all for a 14b

me and noslaser think alike

 

[NosLaser]

And as soon as you put a larger turbo on the car, it will run like it's supposed to because you have all the supporting mods all ready to go. Unlike these yoyo's that like to bolt a large turbo on a stock car, and wonder why they are slow, and wonder what's wrong with their tooning.

Regards,

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by NosLaser
And as soon as you put a larger turbo on the car, it will run like it's supposed to because you have all the supporting mods all ready to go. Unlike these yoyo's that like to bolt a large turbo on a stock car, and wonder why they are slow, and wonder what's wrong with their tooning.

Regards,

Do you deny that mod for mod the car with the larger turbo will be faster? So why does it matter? There is no detriment, there is no threat to your engine, and the guy with less mods on a big turbo will still be faster then the guy with more mods on a 14b.

The guy who bought the bigger turbo will be faster at every point along the mod chain. He may not be fast for what turbo he runs, but he will be faster, and thast all that matters.

Sean

The only guy who agrees with you is doing a 264/272 combo, ported head, what ever, and he will not match the mid 12's a almost stock car on a 50 trim could lay down with no fuel control. When he finally does get a big turbo, the guy who bought the turbo could finally get a built engine, and the only difference between them will be the guy who bought the big turbo first has more tuning experiance, has enjoyed his car more, has has been faster the whole damn time. (but not fast for his turbo, like anyone cares)

 

[Ludachris]

Moved to General - more of a beginner question.

 

[Libila]

Now the only real desicion I have to make is do I go with the T3/T4 kit from AGP or the RS43?? Im thinking the full kit.

 

[NosLaser]

Wow. I really don't know why I even bother, but here goes anyway. Alright toolshed, I'll try to dumb this down for you as much as I possibly can into terms that hopefully you'll be able to grasp. First off, OF COURSE mod for mod a larger turbo will be faster. The key here is mod for mod. You just shot yourself in the foot with that statement as you are advising people to put a big turbo on an unmodded car. First learn how to pick an argument and stick to it before you try to move on to technical discussions.

There is a BIG detriment to putting a larger turbo on a stock car. First off, your spoolup is going to suffer because you don't have the neccessary parts on the car to be able to make a big turbo spool quicker (i.e. a good engine management system in which to play with timing and fuel control.) Second, 99.9% of larger turbos are still yawning at the ridiculously low boost levels you would have to run on a completely stock car, so YES, even a 14B can make more efficient power than a larger turbo on a bone stock car!! Number 3, it doesn't matter how much more 'efficient' a larger turbo is than a smaller one, when dealing with the stock intercooler, increased CFM beyond it's capacity is going to heat things up FASTER and cause heat soak FASTER thus causing detonation. Number 4, you will definately tax your fuel system because in order to supply the neccessary fuel, you have to do one of two things since you don't recommend a fuel pump upgrade either in your guide on how to blow up cars. Either fuel pressure, or injector duty cycle, and guess what? Since you are going to be running less boost than you would have normally with a smaller turbo because hell, even you aren't immune to detonation, you'll be running less fuel pressure so your duty cycle would have to go through the roof. Do I have to continue on? Is any of this sinking in?

Beyond that, there are SEVERAL guys who have run into the low 12's on a 14B, and several as far as mid 11's on a 16g. But for Christ sake I'm not arguing that a small turbo is better than a big turbo!!! I am arguing that it's not a good idea to put a large turbo on a car without the proper supporting mods. How on earth can you still be arguing with me on this point? Dude, you don't even know what compression is as evidenced by your attempt to be a know-it-all in the Extreme Tuner forum. Do yourself, and all the rest of the people on this forum a favor and learn your shit before you coerce someone into listening to you and causing damage to their car.

Regards,

 

[98RedGs]

NosLaser
Aslan
Voted DSMTuner's Most Knowledgeable Member

Hes named that for a reason i personally think. Also ima have to agree with him. Even if you slap a big turbo on a stock car its not gonna do as well i dont think as a car with the supporting mods. Yes the turbo will run more efficently than a smaller one because... well its bigger and it breaths better. Duh!

But a car with supporting mods it seems would be a wiser choice than just slappin on a nice turbo and runnin the car. Call me odd but i would rather a car with alot of supporting mods over a car with just a huge turbo.

 

[NosLaser]

Libila, what I'm thinking is you are going to have one broken car, and one big repair bill if you keep listening to these clowns.

Regards,

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Aslan is obviously knowledgeable and just as obviously unexperianced using mulitiple turbos on multiple setups. A 20G (the "large" turbo we have been using as an example, which is, I might add, not that large) spools perhaps 300 rpm's worse then a 16G. And he is talking about having a "a good engine management system in which to play with timing and fuel control" to help the spool. Because the 3500 of a 20g is ####ing horrible. He's a joke, and anyone who take shit like that seriously is, quite frankly, just as dumb.

He was voted most knowledgeable by people obviously not qaulified to judge. He's the most knowledgeable the same way Cortez was a God among the Aztec's and an assclown in Spain. Its a joke, I'm sorry.

And a fuel pump was listed, assclown, pay attention or shut up. So was exhaust. Among other mod's. I never said to slap a huge turbo on an otherwise bonestock car(although IO did say it would be feasible, I certainly did NOT recomend it except in such cases where you need to buy a turbo for some reason, for instance the stock one blew up.)

If you really believe that a larger turbo on a stock intercooler will heat soak it faster, then you have no experiance in that matter. Period. Because your wrong. Ive had a 14b, 16g, TDO6 20g, on a stock SMIC, along with intake temp sensors, and the 14b and 16G wreck it significantly faster at a given powerlevel(not boost level, but power output)

Are only disagreement is at what point you have enough supporting mods to go for a big turbo. I think exhaust, intake, a boost guage, a boost controller and a fuel pump are enoguh to support a large turbo safely, still make very reasonable power and be fine on the car. Ive proven this with the 3 DSM's Ive owned, and my friends cars, none of which have ever had a problem, all of which have ran very well.

You on the other hand seem to think you need a sheet metal intake manifold and a EMS(which, I might add, I owned and tuned 0001 of, I know how to manage a standalone, let alone what compression is) to run a 20G. 450cc injectors, while easy to max out, are not tiny and can keep a 20G powered car perfectly safe with a minimum of common sense.

Now, you obviously have no experiance here and our just spitting out anything you can think of to keep an oviously successful and worry-free mod path from working. So go try it, or shut up.


Sean

 

[peregrine]

no he wont. he has a rather large supporting group of dsmers to help him. my buddy (11.7@119), me (12.5@113 shittily tuned on 22 psi), and some other people yet to finish their combos. aslan you should know that when i talk about putting a big turbo on of course i mean that it should have basic supporting mods. anyone who buys a huge turbo *first* before anything else is jumping the gun. at the minimum you should have full exhaust, k&n, fuel pump, and a boost controller. or if they get a good deal on it they should at least wait until they have those supporting mods before they throw the turbo on. this topic was started to help him decide which turbo he should get. this means that he intends on buying a turbo and wants to know if he should waste his money on a 16g that he will sell in the near future and lose 40% of his money on or sack up and get a large turbo that he can grow into. choice is clear if you ask me.

 

[98RedGs]

This is to remain a technical conversation please ItsStockOfficer/NosLaser i advise you to both try and keep it that way please.

Please try to keep to just posting knowledge instead of posting
flames also.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Asslan started the insults. I was just playing Asslans games. Don't bi*** at just me when it was obviously going both ways since his 2nd post.

Regards,

 

[Tevenor]

Anyone who buys a huge turbo before setting up the rest of his mods, is like a guy thinking he can handle a porn star no problem when he hasn't even masturbated yet. Sure, you will still have sex with the porn star, but damn is it going to be a rough ride.

Same shit goes for buying big turbos on stock cars. If you have all the supporting shit down, the turbo can be interchangeable. Or better yet ask the guys running low 12's, high 11's on 14b's.