Time to give up? Knock battle continues.

[Norcalrallyist]

Ok lets see.. Ive asked so many times but nothing seems to work. So heres the list of everything Ive done so far to get rid of this stupid stupid knock problem...

Tuning:
Stock Timing 8btdc
Stock boost levels 10-11psi

Upgrades:
2.5 Turbo back w/Cat and wo/Cat
Boost gauge
MBC

Parts ive replaced:
Replaced stock with NGK2023 one heat ranger cooler than stock
Wires twice
Fuel filter
Knock Sensor
Coil

Things ive tried:
Running 0 psi results in 0 knock sum.....
Retarding and advancing the timing reults in no change....
Ran fuel injector cleaner though tanks no change....
Removed injectors and pumped cleaner through injectors no change....
Checked timing belt alignment and TDC was correct so no change....

The whole problem started when I noticed that the car had crappy high end power. I got a logger and found the timing was being cut because of the knock sum.

Heres the Log starting from 1st gear and letting off in 3rd.

<img src="http://image18.webshots.com/18/5/60/93/217156093ijxTBd_ph.jpg">

I think this is my last post about the problem. Ive done just about everything you can imagine to fix this and nothing works. PLLLLLEASE Help! I HATE MY CAR!

 

[bfdahl]

Hey, Friend im probably just a few steps ahead of you in the tuning battles, but ill add a couple of things that i just did that helped alot. First ill say that youve done quite abit of stuff to help zero in on the issue. id like to add have you made sure you cooling system is in top condition? i had a broke T-stat. i also instaled a Fluidyne with my new engine. the next thing that i did helped the most so far: turn base timming to 1-2 deg. I have a fresh head and block that have been slightly resurfaced. so i have plently of compression. 15 PSI and under i can control most all knock and power is a lot better with almost 0 knock. 18 to 22 i have issuse on 91 with my 550s but i went to the 76 station and added 100 and my knock @ 22 is all but gone. but i think i need to hard wire my FP and geta good regulator. anyway try that and ck back with me.

 

[AL92]

I have phantom knock..it kills power off the line.Knock thru the range at higher boost is likely not phantom.Most phantom seems to come off idle or part throttle not even on boost.

For this like you said been doing lots of reading.Some had had success with this and that.Some things that seem to work are newer installing the newer lifters.I bought some and haven't installed them yet.
Some have had luck with new knock sensor .You already changed that.I have a new one but havne't changed it out yet.Some have luck with retarded timing but since my car is so slow off boost just wondering what running 1 to 2 degrees will do to the already lame off boost power? Also have to wonder supposed to be at stock 5 with timing jumped and
8 with it not jumped.Then why does my logger read like 14 at idle??Shouldn't it read lower?

Anyway the best way to get rid of this horribly annoying thing is to do it with programming.You need to get an eprom ecu..not cheap but hey what is in life and then get a custom chip for it.They have code to get rid of phantom knock.Also you can change out ecu for standalone like aem ems but these are huge bucks or dsm link is supposedly out for 1g now but you still need eprom ecu.

Also some guys supposedly have luck with cleaning combustion chambers I tried it once.Some supposedly have luck with pcv valve delete .I did that on my car but knock is still there off idle sometimes but not all the time.Its totally random..thats what makes it so weird.

I just purchased an eprom ecu and will be throwing custom chip in shortly.See if that cures my phantom knock problem.Anything else seems to be hit and miss.

I have replaced in my car since last year wires with ngk,tried ngk 6,7 and iridiums still get the phantom knock,new fuel filter,new 650 injectors,supra pump,afpr,new 02,new coilpack,new power transistor,alt and bat...new turbo,new exh man,o2 housing.
all new and still phantom knock.

Never did check my ecu for leaking caps shot boards though and that might also be something to do with it.

Good luck and I would go with the eprom ecu and chip.

 

[bfdahl]

i have an eprom with the key diver stage 3 and it works great, i recently got an updated chip with the new anti-knock code but havnt tryed it yet. im usiing it with an SAFC and i know that altering the AFC will affect the timming becuse the computer sees less airflow and kicks up the timming at part-throttle. and i think thats where most of my knock comes from. if i had mech probs then even 100 oct would not change the knock. but when i run it i never get knock unless im way lean or piggy rich. but the keydiver chip rocks!

 

[PaleDSM]

You didn't mention it but have your pressurized the intake system to be sure you have no leaks that are over working the turbo and heating up the air charge?

8*BTDC is too much. Stock is 5*. People that have problems with knock usually end up running less, more like 3* base to help out.

Knock sensor is definately torqued correctly?

 

[tsi20gawd]

Just order a chip from Jeff and ask for the phantom knock elimination code it will cure your problem. I've used it on all of the chips I have made.

 

[Norcalrallyist]

You didn't mention it but have your pressurized the intake system to be sure you have no leaks that are over working the turbo and heating up the air charge?

8*BTDC is too much. Stock is 5*. People that have problems with knock usually end up running less, more like 3* base to help out.

Knock sensor is definately torqued correctly?

The sensor is torqued correcly and it did effect the knock when I replaced it. I used to get knock sum maxed out to 40 or whatever it reads to. I set it to whatever the stock timing was suggested to be in the chilton manual for my year and I used the timing cover as reference (I was going to mark tdc on the cover myself but I forgot) I have basically taken the logger after I had adjusted the timing to stock and ran the car, got out, retarded the timing ran it again, got out retarded the timing, until I had it so retarded it would barely run. So from stock timing to would barely run and i got knock the whole time. I havent pressurized the intake system so I guess I will go ahead and try that next. Do you think removing knock from the ecu with a reprog eprom is a good idea?

 

[Staytuned]

Like AL92 said try some combustion chamber cleaner and see what happens ....too much carbon buildup and you create a higher compression ratio which will lead to knock. I know this cause I drive a van at work that runs basically 24/7 at mostly idle situations (it's a patrol van for a prison). Thing has engine knock so bad under acceleration you can feel it in the steering wheel. :laugh:

 

[AL92]

Phantom knock code doesn't disable knock under boost just off boost part throttle /idle stuff where most of us have it.As said if you don't go to ecu and eprom stuff then you have to try hit and miss.New lifters..work for some,new knock sensor..work for some,combustion chamber cleaner..work for some..pcv delete..etc etc.So far none of the other stuff worked for me but didn't install as I said my new lifters and knock sensor.I am just going right to the source with eprom progamming and get rid of it there.I will likely move up to fancy aem ems later on or dsmlink but for now my knock should be history.It does drive me nuts.Sometimes off the line my car would lose to a diesel rabbit and next time it would smoke just about anything.Its very annoying.

I am expecting it to work .Not sure what the deal is on this phantom knock but its crap.!!

 

[red90awd]

What are you running for fuel mods, What type of air metering system are you running? Also what kind of condition are you motor mounts in? I had a prblem w/ knock due to motor mount wear, also had a knock problem due to my maft. So lets get some more info on stuff like that.

 

[Norcalrallyist]

I ran the car without the wastegate hooked up and it doesnt knock at all... It only knocks starting in around 3500-4000 under wot. Im positive this is not an issue caused by mechanical noise such as lifters engine mounts uhh bad muffler bearings

 

[Norcalrallyist]

What would you suggest for combustion chamber cleaner?

 

[Norcalrallyist]

What are you running for fuel mods, What type of air metering system are you running? Also what kind of condition are you motor mounts in? I had a prblem w/ knock due to motor mount wear, also had a knock problem due to my maft. So lets get some more info on stuff like that.

None. The stock one. Poly mounts. The car makes no knock without boost

 

[Staytuned]

What would you suggest for combustion chamber cleaner?

MCCC mopar combustion chamber cleaner. I have never used it ...but everyone says it works and everyone recommends it.

 

[green92gsx]

I hate to say it but bottom end damage ( spun bearings) is one of the major causes of Phantom Knock.
When I first bought my car years ago the basterd had pk so bad that when all else failed I got pissed off and started blowing the engine down. What did I find ? Alot of metal in the oil pan. I rebuilt it and wha la" no more phantom knock.
I think the first thing to do before stuffing money in knock sensers ,carbon cleaners,ect ect, is to pull the pan and check for internal damage. Just my two cents.

 

[PaleDSM]

MCCC mopar combustion chamber cleaner. I have never used it ...but everyone says it works and everyone recommends it.

MCCC is commonly used by DSMers to clean out the manifold and combustion chambers. I have used it on a few cars and it works great.

 

[kxc36g]

Set your timing correctly before you do anything else. Do you get lifter tick? That is a major cause of knock. What is your battery voltage? Are plugs gapped correctly? Throw in some race gas and see what happens. Then you know if it is mechanical or tuning related. It may be internal, but there are alot of other things to check before you pull the oil pan. If all else fails, try the Stage 3 keydiver chip. It was the only thing to cure my knock.

Chris

 

[ACKERSON]

bfdahl, you say you have your base timing at 1-2 degress btdc. So how do you get your car to idle? I really dont see any way you could run 1-2 degrees of base timing, how are you checking your timing?

 

[R3dR]

For all of you who claim knock to be phantom knock please try adding higher octane fuel and see if the knock goes away and if it does then its REAL knock.

If the knock does not change after the high oct gets into the engine then you have real phantom knock and can start looking for the culpret.

Why does It seem like every one wants to start spending mony on parts b4 they try this???

I got 92 oct from a store and had the crazy knock come on and couldnt figure out what caused it but didnt start buying parts, I tried tunning it out and when I could not solve the issue I got some sunoco and slapped it in and BAMM!!!!! Knock was gone so I now Know that the gas I was getting from that store was bad and I will not be using that gas station any more until the gas has gone through its full sumer/winter blend change in there tanks.

 

[evotuner]

I too am suffering from phantom knock, just under part throttle (usually 15-25% on the AFC) whether I run race gas or not. I just replaced the knock sensor yesterday, and it didn't help one bit. I heard you guys talking about the keydiver stage3 (which I have) and the new "anti knock code", where did you hear about it and where can I get info? I went to the website, and I don't see any info on it. It almost seems when I went to the keydiver chip (which I love to death) is when I started experiencing the phantom knock.

Any info on the "anti knock code" would be sweet.

 

[98spydert]

I gave up on my phantom knock and continued modding when I had the problem. I had blow thru GM Maf, 650s, pump, afpr, dsmchips chip, down pipe and exhaust, uicp, licp, intake, all with a t25 while I was getting ready to change turbos. Went from rediculous phantom knock that couldn't be tuned out what so ever, to 0 knock with only changing to a larger ported turbo and tubular o2 housing. I can't explain it because I don't know what backpressure or the exhaust in general has to do with phantom knock but that was my fix. It was the only thing I changed and the PK never came back. Just thought i'd add this in for something to think about. After all, porting your current set up is cheap and will yield performance results even if it does nothing for PK.

 

[sweet97]

I have been having knck problems alsoand it's not the small IC because it wll do it even in 40* temps. I will try the cleaner, I need to change plugs and wires. Will checkmotor mounts.Never heard that one before. Anymore options like the mounts? Honestly can a noisy muffler cause knock? I may try a quietmuffler to see what happens. Mark

 

[bfdahl]

bfdahl, you say you have your base timing at 1-2 degress btdc. So how do you get your car to idle? I really dont see any way you could run 1-2 degrees of base timing, how are you checking your timing?

My car idles fine even with the HKS cams, I just ground the timming ck plug and pull out the timming light and crank the CAS back to where i want the timming. Alot of people do this i found out about it on these forms. Keep in mind i have a fresh bullet and 8.7 to 1 camp.

On an older engine with low comp. or one that has a T-belt on a tooth off may not fare as well.

 

[bfdahl]

I too am suffering from phantom knock, just under part throttle (usually 15-25% on the AFC) whether I run race gas or not. I just replaced the knock sensor yesterday, and it didn't help one bit. I heard you guys talking about the keydiver stage3 (which I have) and the new "anti knock code", where did you hear about it and where can I get info? I went to the website, and I don't see any info on it. It almost seems when I went to the keydiver chip (which I love to death) is when I started experiencing the phantom knock.

Any info on the "anti knock code" would be sweet.

You have to Email Jeff and inquire about it.