How much to richen up for knock?

[DSM_munky_man]

Hello gentleman. I have been looking at different ways to elimnate knock. Well pull timing of course, but in the case there isnt alot of timing in that spot any, such as in one of my logs I was tracking timing and during one point i had 2.9* pulled for knock, well in the cell where it was at there was only 12* of timing, and so I wouldnt want to really pully anymore timing would I? since it is so low already.

So i know knock occurs with too much timing or being too lean. With that said can I richen up the mixture a bit for knock in the DA openloop tables? If so, how much richer should you go for each degree of timing pulled for knock?

 

[Gus@RRE]

12* of timing at what boost level? What type of fuel? Pump gas really restricts the amount of timing you can run at a certain boost level, either way in order to know how much fuel to add it would be very useful to know what your afr's look like as of now. Upload a log and that will probably net better help.

 

[cookmeup272]

Do you have a wideband installed? Whats the AFR? I would get it to ~11:1 and if there is still knock, then either reduce the boost one psi or remove a degree of timing and then readjust.

 

[LiquidX]

Both Gus and cookmeup are correct, you need to provide more information on what's going on. If you have a log, post it up. A log will say a lot more than what you can describe.

 

[DSM_munky_man]

Alright I thought I attached the log and pics, but I guess I did not do it right, I will repost them tonight. Not sure on afrs atm but fuel is 91 boost is at 13 according to my gauge.

 

[cookmeup272]

91 octane is a severe limiting factor IMO. You wont be able to get any good timing/boost with it.

 

[Imback]

13 at WOT?

 

[Gus@RRE]

Don't touch your fuel maps or timing maps for that matter until you have a wideband. If you have no idea what your afr's look like then your just looking for a needle in a haystack in pitch darkness. If i were you i would revert to all stock settings until you can properly monitor what's going on under the hood.

 

[DSM_munky_man]

91 octane is a severe limiting factor IMO. You wont be able to get any good timing/boost with it.

Ya but still would like to make some power off it.

13 at WOT?

Yes 13 at WOT

Don't touch your fuel maps or timing maps for that matter until you have a wideband. If you have no idea what your afr's look like then your just looking for a needle in a haystack in pitch darkness. If i were you i would revert to all stock settings until you can properly monitor what's going on under the hood.

No wideband, but a NB that gives me a general idea and logging AFR's in link as well anytime the knock happens the NB is on the rich side of things. I would have to refer to link to get a better idea though.

 

[LiquidX]

Narrow bands are generally junk and it will always go from lean to rich as that's how the car operates in closed loop. Open loop operation and the narrow band becomes useless as you have no idea where your actual reading is at. Even referring to ECMLink it's still called EstAFRatio as in estimated. You need to tune it with a wideband for it to become accurate.

As Gus has said, put your fuel tables and timing tables back to stock until you get your wideband so you know exactly what you are doing.

 

[gofer]

No wideband = No WOT tuning unless you have no regard for the life of your engine.

As Gus has said, put your fuel tables and timing tables back to stock until you get your wideband so you know exactly what you are doing.

Gus and Scott are right, but I don't suggest reverting your timing tables back to stock since your 1g timing tables are VERY aggressive. Since your running 91 octane goat piss copy/paste the stock 2g timing tables in your TmngMax/MinOctane tables.

 

[Gus@RRE]

No wideband, but a NB that gives me a general idea and logging AFR's in link as well anytime the knock happens the NB is on the rich side of things. I would have to refer to link to get a better idea though.

A "better idea" is not good enough to be able to make the proper correction on your fuel table. Like i said i would suggest you take a break from adjusting your fuel table until you have a wideband installed. Corey does have a good point, you can use 2g timing table if you'd like since stock 1g timing tables are so aggressive.

 

[DSM_munky_man]

Alright, I'll wait for a WB, but why would I have to go to a 2g timing when my 1g is what is stock and seems sufficient if I am stock and can revert back to stock boost?

 

[gofer]

Alright, I'll wait for a WB, but why would I have to go to a 2g timing when my 1g is what is stock and seems sufficient if I am stock and can revert back to stock boost?

The 1g timing map is fine on a 1g running STOCK boost levels on a STOCK turbo, you my friend aren't running either of those so the timing map is a bit aggressive and the reason why your knocking. Paste the 2g timing map in DA and you'll have a good conservative timing map to start tuning with running pump gas.

 

[DSM_munky_man]

If boost levels were brought to stock it would be the same correct?

 

[flyineagletsi]

If boost levels were brought to stock it would be the same correct?

Nope, your talking about a difference from 250CFMs to 550CFMs of the 16g. A 16g will flow more air at the same boost level as the 14b. More air = more power potential and since you don't really have a way to monitor it, keep it conservative side with the 2g map.

 

[DSM_munky_man]

True, i didnt think about that. Just looking over the log though and A/Fest is at 12.5-12.7 at the WOT points with knock. I know it is an estimate, but it is probably pretty close wouldnt you say? Since it is using all the logged inputs that are happening to estimate it? It isnt like it is just a wild ass guess like a NB. either way though, I am looking for a WB to borrow since i have no money to afford a new one.

Also the 12.5-12.7 is extremely close to what the DA tables are saying it should be.

 

[BigBeans]

True, i didnt think about that. Just looking over the log though and A/Fest is at 12.5-12.7 at the WOT points with knock. I know it is an estimate, but it is probably pretty close wouldnt you say? Since it is using all the logged inputs that are happening to estimate it? It isnt like it is just a wild ass guess like a NB. either way though, I am looking for a WB to borrow since i have no money to afford a new one.

Also the 12.5-12.7 is extremely close to what the DA tables are saying it should be.

Assuming you're in the mid 12s, that's way too lean for 91.

You want to be down near 11.0:1 on pump gas so you can run more boost and timing, hell i even get to 10.8 in a few places if it lets me pick up a bit of timing. Leaner AFRs make a little power, but higher boost levels and more timing advance is where the real hp is.

As everyone else recommended, you should really stop tuning until you have a wideband on the car.

 

[LiquidX]

Your estimate is only as accurate as your base fuel injector tune/idle tune. You can have a good idle but your numbers could be off causing your estimate to be off as well.

 

[DSM_munky_man]

I have idle set up the way the tutorials and everyone on here have said to. airflow per rev I see .24-.25 and FT are hovering around -2 to about +2 Some times about a point more or less too. Well within the range of what is called for. As for the tuning part, I am not tuning at the moment I am using what I have got now and was looking at ways to get rid of knock that I have for future use. The only thing I have done tuning wise was idle, and got my airflow inline.