The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

I don't poke fun at NA 4 bangers that have trapped higher to date than I have (with a turbo) on nearly the same displacement just because of the badge.. That is completely writing off folks like Chris Miller, Tony Palo, Norris Prayoonto, etc.

There are plenty of clowns in this community too.

Good for you. I'm not one that's super impressed. Never have been. Honda's attain weights regularly in the 1600-1800# range helping ETs get right down there. I've had Hondas in the family for 30 years, so it's not the badge. Plain and simple, when it comes to drag racing, I don't look Honda's way. Anyone else that wants to, good for them.

 

[pneumo]

The last time I was at the track I watched a NA Honda go 16.2@ 135 DECIBELS!

 

[Dsmkauai]

As they were coming out of production......

There are certainly guys that have had their dsms right out of the gate from summer-fall 1989. However alot of them have moved on. I'm sure there's still some out there. I had bought my VF4 from it's original owner

Ya pretty funny huh bro!! I am the second owner and still have it!! I got it with like 70k and put 240k before the motor let go !! I really didn't start heavily modding till about 6-7years ago though, but I've always raced the car at the track! Back in the day when I was young and dumb on the street. For me it was working on a friends gsx and taking it for a nice test drive that gave me the dsm bug. Before that I was all about muscle !!! I'm so glad I got my eclipse when I did, I've been thru alot with this car!!

 

[Phil1320]

The last time I was at the track I watched a NA Honda go 16.2@ 135 DECIBELS!

. And, this would be one thing that helps diffuse any interest on my part.

Ya pretty funny huh bro!! I am the second owner and still have it!! I got it with like 70k and put 240k before the motor let go !! I really didn't start heavily modding till about 6-7years ago though, but I've always raced the car at the track! Back in the day when I was young and dumb on the street. For me it was working on a friends gsx and taking it for a nice test drive that gave me the dsm bug. Before that I was all about muscle !!! I'm so glad I got my eclipse when I did, I've been thru alot with this car!!

That is crazy....cool story too!

 

[SBstar]

Onto present day!

Yesterday I tried to do a little tuning on the car. Didn't get very far. I've been running this car with one little tiny no-name piece of junk slimline fan forever. It always overheats. I'm tired of it, when the lanes are long at the track I've had issues with it getting too hot before a run. I ordered another fan this morning.

Also on the few pulls I did get in, I'm seeing random small counts of knock. Only 1-2 degrees at most, but it still bothers me. And as I said, random, one pull it'll be there, the next nothing. I might try gapping my plugs down a touch as that was a problem in the past. But, I think it might be some phantom knock from putting the exhaust back on, it hits the driveshaft quite frequently. I'm not sure that's enough to get a knock reading but it's worth fixing before doing any more pulls.

 

[Phil1320]

Onto present day!

Yesterday I tried to do a little tuning on the car. Didn't get very far. I've been running this car with one little tiny no-name piece of junk slimline fan forever. It always overheats. I'm tired of it, when the lanes are long at the track I've had issues with it getting too hot before a run. I ordered another fan this morning.

Also on the few pulls I did get in, I'm seeing random small counts of knock. Only 1-2 degrees at most, but it still bothers me. And as I said, random, one pull it'll be there, the next nothing. I might try gapping my plugs down a touch as that was a problem in the past. But, I think it might be some phantom knock from putting the exhaust back on, it hits the driveshaft quite frequently. I'm not sure that's enough to get a knock reading but it's worth fixing before doing any more pulls.

Whelp, you've gotta be riding the ragged edge here as quick as you've gone. However phantom knock can really throw a curve ball at your tune. How much boost were you running anyway? Don't think we've even talked about that....

 

[1qkfwd]

Whelp, you've gotta be riding the ragged edge here as quick as you've gone. However phantom knock can really throw a curve ball at your tune. How much boost were you running anyway? Don't think we've even talked about that....

Having personally talked to Shane, not on the ragged edge yet. He's go more power left on the table. How much? That depends how hard he wants to push.

 

[SBstar]

Whelp, you've gotta be riding the ragged edge here as quick as you've gone. However phantom knock can really throw a curve ball at your tune. How much boost were you running anyway? Don't think we've even talked about that....

There's the funny thing, it's not even close to the ragged edge from what I've seen. I really think it's some sort of phantom knock, most likely caused by the exhaust hitting the driveshaft. Hopefully this next week I'll pull the catback back off, or at least find a way to secure it further away from the driveshaft, and make a few pulls.

Justin advised on some plug readings and got me researching that. From what the plugs say I'm definitely rich and could stand quite a bit more timing.

Provided I don't see knock doing pulls where nothing should be clanging I'm going to start slowly leaning it out, then try adding some timing if all is well. Going to go a range hotter on plugs too. Believe it or not the 11.14 run was on bpr8es which I have no idea how or why I had those in the car, I'm going to inspect those see what they look like when I have a minute and get to where they're at currently. Right now there are bpr7es in the car and it looks like I should be running bpr6es. For those not in the know, e85 usually requires a hotter plug.

 

[Phil1320]

There's the funny thing, it's not even close to the ragged edge from what I've seen. I really think it's some sort of phantom knock, most likely caused by the exhaust hitting the driveshaft. Hopefully this next week I'll pull the catback back off, or at least find a way to secure it further away from the driveshaft, and make a few pulls.

Justin advised on some plug readings and got me researching that. From what the plugs say I'm definitely rich and could stand quite a bit more timing.

Provided I don't see knock doing pulls where nothing should be clanging I'm going to start slowly leaning it out, then try adding some timing if all is well. Going to go a range hotter on plugs too. Believe it or not the 11.14 run was on bpr8es which I have no idea how or why I had those in the car, I'm going to inspect those see what they look like when I have a minute and get to where they're at currently. Right now there are bpr7es in the car and it looks like I should be running bpr6es. For those not in the know, e85 usually requires a hotter plug.

Fair enough. But, my question, since you guys don't dyno, how much power is it worth? Even 10 awhp gain, while looking killer on paper, won't amount to much when trying to haul 2400 lbs. down the strip. Now, this is definitely a ''sum of all parts'' effort with the 14b, so, for sure every .5 hp counts. I'm just wondering how much is left, and a dyno number from you and/or Justin would help us all see where the 'ceiling' may be for 14b power at the wheels.

As it stands, I think the only dyno numbers out there are:

Me - 295 awhp on Dynojet

Dave - 324 awhp on Mustang

So, it'd be nice to see some power #'s.

At some point here, I'm sure someone will find the threshold.

 

[1SloEvo]

It would be nice to see some numbers from other cars just to see what kind of power is being made.

 

[bullettdsm]

Justin advised on some plug readings and got me researching that. From what the plugs say I'm definitely rich and could stand quite a bit more timing.

Justin's correct. Best way to establish knock/phantom knock is reading the plugs. What's cool nowadays, is that there is plenty of info out there on the internutz to direct you.

"Back in the day" they used to use egt's to tune off of. I believe that afr's and dyno are all you need BUT you can also use egt's as an indicator that something might be wrong (but not necessarilly as a primary source).

The reverse of that would be if your egt's are pretty cool, then knock is most probably not present.

 

[1qkfwd]

Justin advised on some plug readings and got me researching that. From what the plugs say I'm definitely rich and could stand quite a bit more timing.

Provided I don't see knock doing pulls where nothing should be clanging I'm going to start slowly leaning it out, then try adding some timing if all is well. Going to go a range hotter on plugs too. Believe it or not the 11.14 run was on bpr8es which I have no idea how or why I had those in the car, I'm going to inspect those see what they look like when I have a minute and get to where they're at currently. Right now there are bpr7es in the car and it looks like I should be running bpr6es. For those not in the know, e85 usually requires a hotter plug.

Being that your on Ethanol and someone will probably agree, I would toss out the window any readings you get from the knock sensor. E85 being so knock resistant, I've seen people melt pistons before knock was even present. One of the reasons I brought up the plug tuning.

Fair enough. But, my question, since you guys don't dyno, how much power is it worth? Even 10 awhp gain, while looking killer on paper, won't amount to much when trying to haul 2400 lbs. down the strip. Now, this is definitely a ''sum of all parts'' effort with the 14b, so, for sure every .5 hp counts. I'm just wondering how much is left, and a dyno number from you and/or Justin would help us all see where the 'ceiling' may be for 14b power at the wheels.

As it stands, I think the only dyno numbers out there are:

Me - 295 awhp on Dynojet

Dave - 324 awhp on Mustang

So, it'd be nice to see some power #'s.

At some point here, I'm sure someone will find the threshold.

Any time you raise mph at the track you gain hp. I gained almost 2mph on a 2 degree timing change at the track. That does roughly equate to 15-20hp. I don't see there being any gains taking our cars at this level to the dyno.

I do however am goin to make a trip to a dyno just to get a number. But my feelings won't be hurt if I can get my trap speeds in sac up to 127-128 and make less hp on a dyno than everyone else.

Justin's correct. Best way to establish knock/phantom knock is reading the plugs. What's cool nowadays, is that there is plenty of info out there on the internutz to direct you.

"Back in the day" they used to use egt's to tune off of. I believe that afr's and dyno are all you need BUT you can also use egt's as an indicator that something might be wrong (but not necessarilly as a primary source).

The reverse of that would be if your egt's are pretty cool, then knock is most probably not present.

Funny I was just talking to an old school racer about tuning egts and how they had an air filter as their only change and the car ran higher egts and the afrs where all off.

Egts may be old school but can still be effective. I have the Aem aq1 logger coming and I plan to utilize Egt to help dial things in.

 

[Phil1320]

I'm just saying it would be nice to know what you guys, the two quickest active 14b guys, are making. I'm not talking about the dyno as a benefit per se'. And, again, that's great that you can see a trap speed increase, but it's only an ET DECREASE that is of prime interest to me. If you gain enough power to increase trap speed, but not decrease ET, that means one of two things:

1. It's not enough power to make the car quicker

2. You're not able to take advantage of the newfound power

A worthwhile gain will have you covering point A to point B quicker.

 

[1qkfwd]

I'm just saying it would be nice to know what you guys, the two quickest active 14b guys, are making. I'm not talking about the dyno as a benefit per se'. And, again, that's great that you can see a trap speed increase, but it's only an ET DECREASE that is of prime interest to me. If you gain enough power to increase trap speed, but not decrease ET, that means one of two things:

1. It's not enough power to make the car quicker

2. You're not able to take advantage of the newfound power

A worthwhile gain will have you covering point A to point B quicker.

Any increase of mph will equal a decrease of ET eventually.

Only negative side effect of me guilting the dyno, I'm fwd and have less drivetrain loss. So if I make the same crank hp as you or Dave my whp will be higher. Shane on the other hand would be a better comparison since its awd/awd

 

[Phil1320]

Alright, well I guess we'll get no dyno numbers then. Guess it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[1qkfwd]

Alright, well I guess we'll get no dyno numbers then. Guess it doesn't matter anyway.

Is it that your more curious as to what kind of power we are making??

 

[SBstar]

I plan on hitting the dyno this year yet. So we'll get some numbers and I'll be sure to share anything I learn. Considering my next 1/4 mile track trip this year will most likely be my last I want to find everything in the car that can move me forward quicker!

 

[Steve93Talon]

As it stands, I think the only dyno numbers out there are:

Me - 295 awhp on Dynojet

Dave - 324 awhp on Mustang

So, it'd be nice to see some power #'s.

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Being that your on Ethanol and someone will probably agree, I would toss out the window any readings you get from the knock sensor. E85 being so knock resistant, I've seen people melt pistons before knock was even present. One of the reasons I brought up the plug tuning.

I'd agree with this. I've run with my knock sensor off since the car's been on E85. If you're seeing knock it's very likely phantom. Aside from reading the plugs, you can also look into making/buying knock ears. One of the most reputable tuners around here uses them and you can trust them far more than the flaky 1G knock sensor.

http://www.haltech.com/product/tuning-tools/knock-ears/

 

[Phil1320]

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Had you posted this before? Anyway, that's nice power. Is this actual HP or corrected? Also, this is FWHP right?

 

[SBstar]

NM if my last post was read...thought it was a VD sheet for a moment, then saw it in his profile.

Those are impressive numbers, even on a dynojet! That was a while ago though eh? What has changed since then?

 

[Phil1320]

I plan on hitting the dyno this year yet. So we'll get some numbers and I'll be sure to share anything I learn. Considering my next 1/4 mile track trip this year will most likely be my last I want to find everything in the car that can move me forward quicker!

Missed this. Sweet. Will be cool to see.

The numbers I posted were corrected.

Uncorrected I was 304 awhp & 348 tq

 

[SBstar]

Missed this. Sweet. Will be cool to see.

The numbers I posted were corrected.

Uncorrected I was 304 awhp & 348 tq

I just see no reason not to hop on Force Engineering's dyno and see what it puts down. I really don't expect anything overly impressive and it is a Mustang dyno. But, it'd be nice to know for comparison purposes. It should also give me a clue as to what is left in the power department.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Had you posted this before? Anyway, that's nice power. Is this actual HP or corrected? Also, this is FWHP right?

I did post this back when I first dynoed, around 2 years ago. That's standard correction, uncorrected was around 310/325 if I recall correctly. This was when the car was FWD. I've been meaning to get it back on the dyno now that it's AWD and it's got the GSC S1s in it. I'm thinking I can match or even beat those numbers.

It's also interesting to compare this graph to my previous car/setup. The old car made 289 whp AWD but the peak power was 600 rpms higher, so it does seem like maybe the cams were good for something.

 

[1qkfwd]

NM if my last post was read...thought it was a VD sheet for a moment, then saw it in his profile.

Those are impressive numbers, even on a dynojet! That was a while ago though eh? What has changed since then?

Hehe I woke up and saw the Email. Was like !!!!

I did post this back when I first dynoed, around 2 years ago. That's standard correction, uncorrected was around 310/325 if I recall correctly. This was when the car was FWD. I've been meaning to get it back on the dyno now that it's AWD and it's got the GSC S1s in it. I'm thinking I can match or even beat those numbers.

It's also interesting to compare this graph to my previous car/setup. The old car made 289 whp AWD but the peak power was 600 rpms higher, so it does seem like maybe the cams were good for something.

I was just talking to Brandon the other day about trying the S1s. I like my power now and if it was bumped up any it might hurt the track performance even thought it makes a bit more power. Good thing for adjustable cam gears.

Would have to try and find a good deal on a used set somewhere.

 

[Phil1320]

Is it that your more curious as to what kind of power we are making??

Wow, I'm out of it. Missed this too. Yeah, that's all. I just think it's nice to compare. That's what alot of this is all about. Comparing numbers. It's fun to me, especially since I'm not out executing like some of you guys are.

I did post this back when I first dynoed, around 2 years ago. That's standard correction, uncorrected was around 310/325 if I recall correctly. This was when the car was FWD. I've been meaning to get it back on the dyno now that it's AWD and it's got the GSC S1s in it. I'm thinking I can match or even beat those numbers.

It's also interesting to compare this graph to my previous car/setup. The old car made 289 whp AWD but the peak power was 600 rpms higher, so it does seem like maybe the cams were good for something.

Ok, after seeing it the light turned on in my head. I had seen it.

Well anything in the 320 range is really making great power. If I were to make 320 whenever it is I may have my engine back together, I'd consider it a huge improvement. However, who knows.

My peak power was 5950 rpm iirc.