talon vs viper

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

wow i have not laughed this hard in a while... just helps support my theory this board is 99% retards.

there is no replacement for displacement. period. end of story.

technology is not a replacement, it is an aid.
forced induction is not a replacement, it is again, an aid.

more displacement will always have higher potential.

those nice cars cost a lot of money because they are just that, nice cars. much much nicer than a DSM. DSMs are nice cars for $5000 but are worlds apart from a viper and the like.

the story teller is an idiot for pulling a u turn in the middle of the road and driving like a douche. the viper driver probably wasn't even on the gas. he was probably telling his passenger "hey check out that idiot kid over there driving like a ####tard, i can't wait to watch his ass get pulled over by the pigs for driving like a retard", while you meanwhile fly past him thinking you're "pulling hard on him"

no i'm not one of those fools that thinks street racing is stupid, in fact i do a lot of it. i just don't act like an idiot about it

 

[ProjectDSM]

Come on man. Being that you have a turbo I know you understand displacement!!! When air is compressed into anything and replaced with something else, a.k.a. “DISPLACED” there’s your “replacement for displacement”, compression. A turbo adds to the displacement of air whether it “aids” or whatever you want to call it, same difference. You remember those science experiments in class where they asked you to figure the volume of an object by placing it in water. Well a turbo in theory compresses that object and makes it denser then what it was. SO, as to fit more of that object (in our case air) into the combustion chamber for ignition. Now a V8 or V10 whatever may have more potential to displace air aided by a turbo, but if our little 2.0liter motor includes an air compressing AID and the other doesn’t then there’s a possibility for advantage to the smaller engine because of technology. Wow those guys were really thinking when they designed the turbo. I’m not bashing just your comment was a little harsh. Maybe the guy was making bull and hosing up the story but is that really the issue. The bottom line is if I can compress enough air into a motor, then I can have the same amount of displaced air as any other motor, or with an aid if that’s what you want to call it, which IS the technology of a turbo.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

you got it pretty much correct.. but compression is not a replacement.. it IS displacement.. that's why bigger turbos make more power... they displace more air


i love my DSM, 400+hp is fun in any form... but i'd take it in the form of a viper over a DSM any day

 

[90GSX182]

I hear ya...id take a viper anyday over my dsm or my 300ZXTT....but i couldnt drive the viper everday like i do my dsm....keep that in mind

As for those who say that there is no replacement for displacement...pple who say that are pple with V8s who say that turbos are no replacement for the lack of Cubic inches we have...well yurbos are our replacement because we are beatin them more and more often arent we

 

[theTuner]

You cant really compare with a viper and a DSM, they arnt much alike at all

 

[ProjectDSM]

It’s more of a figure of speech then anything else. We're substituting a large C.I. motor with a lighter, higher revving, turbo charged, 4 bangin power plant that can put out relatively the same hp numbers as the big boys, i.e. your 400hp plus from a little 4 shooter, that’s just incredible if you really think about it. And now that HP is being held more through out the RPM band with new faster spooling turbos. Add 4 wheels pushing power to the ground and you have just become a "V8 Killer".

I took my car to a Shop here in my town and started talking to the mechanic about his supposed racecar he was building. It was your typical big block V8 with whatever mixings. "Well," I asked him "do you plan on forced induction." "Yeah a supercharger." he tells me. "Wow, did you ever consider an all wheel drive turbo charged 1G eclipse." "NA, AWD sucks just eats up power and turbos suck cause of turbo lag not to mention a 4 cylinder motor is just to small to hit 11's." I was pretty happy he said that so he would stay out of the arena of that kind of car (DSM) but also thought what a nimrod this guy is to really say that. And totally ignore the concept just because of a small 4 cylinder motor would be the power plant. Kinda makes you think and be glad that these people are ignoring up and coming technologies. I haven't been back to that shop since. although I do agree with the Viper DSM comparison, I would take a Viper anyday...

 

[eclipsed95]

To sum up my thoughts after reading this whole thread

Anyway, mad props on the kill!! Proud to see and hear about fast 2g's sometimes, especially beating real deal super cars.

A fast car is a fast car, who cares what it is. I think that most anyone who owns a dsm and is a member of this site drives their car by choice, not because it's what they have to drive.

 

[MituMIR]

here's my opinion. I love ALL cars. old school muscles cars, new schools muscle cars, imports, Eruopean cars, all of them. Any car can do anything, it's all about the money you have.

Another thing, you take a used DSM for 10 grand and a f-body or mustang oir soemthinbg like that. Well you're going to be speding almost 25 grand for that anyway, and if you put not even half of that into the DSM, holy damn, I'd be afriad to drive that.

In a recent article in Sport Compact Car, they we doing a little project (not sure if anybody read this) They were taking a brand new 10 grand Focus and a 27 grand mustange SVT cobra and they were going to make the focus out run that mustang with the 17 grnad budget (this difference between the two. Now yeah, you say put that 17 grand into the mustang, well, there you go, that's already so much more money spent on the mustang.

I also read before, yeah these domestic are torque monsters, they'll friggin rip about some imports off the line to maybe 60-100mph or so, but with the imports having the high rpm turbo engines, they're going to pull hard in high RPM's. HP is torque over time, and you'll obviously relize you're always in hgih rpms whiule racing. and sure many doemstic have more horsepower, you don't see too many light weight domestic do you, as opposed to a 2500 civic. Although AWD DSM are very heafty.

Well that's all i could think of......Again, one of my dream cars in a 1970 cuda, and another is a 67 trans am, along with the new WS6's. I have mnay dream cars, and they cover a wide wide wide variey of cars.

 

[ProjectDSM]

^^^ Good post. For the money I would spend some high dollar on a car that deserved it, Viper, Porsche, Lambo, yada yada yada. Who wouldn't??? The thing I love the most about my DSM is the way it responds to just about any mod. I'm still running the T-"too small" (T-25) turbo but I can still out run mostly anything here in my town including GT's with the good fixings, Exhaust, Headers, whatever. I do have a FWD but its crazy fast with great response and I can surprise the best of em, "Yeah those wheels don't just look good!!!". Lets take the EVO, Mitsu's response to the WRC. Probably one of the nicest, fastest cars out of the lot under, of course, a certain price. The DSM is America’s version of the early EVOs, the attempt to really bring that technology to the US. Hell we took the power plant, and for good reason, although we ####ed it up with a Crank Walk issue!!! It wasn't until Mitsu and Subi actually brought the REAL DEAL to America that people took this shit seriously (EVO & STI). NOW eyes are wide open to the concept of an AWD turbo charged powerhouse (#### honda by the way). Take the SRT-4, not AWD but Mopar is jumping all over it. Why, cause its fast as hell and turning heads, not to forget it's so freakin inexpensive. You can't ignore new technology and call it an "AID". If its aiding us its the real deal, am I right? If I use a ladder to get on top of my house I can still get on top of my house. I don't know… I love my DSM. The first time I saw a DSM hang with a Viper without NOS and all the other bull I was hooked. I knew I had fallen into a great place with a car. It’s given me problems but I still can't put her down. I love it, simple as that and the next time I burn another V8 I'll yell back at em, "yeah its 4 cylinders of hell, and I didn't spend ten thousand bucks to sleeve & rebuild the block just to shoot a 100 shot of NOS to run maybe 12's".

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

Originally posted by MituMIR
here's my opinion. I love ALL cars. old school muscles cars, new schools muscle cars, imports, Eruopean cars, all of them. Any car can do anything, it's all about the money you have.

Another thing, you take a used DSM for 10 grand and a f-body or mustang oir soemthinbg like that. Well you're going to be speding almost 25 grand for that anyway, and if you put not even half of that into the DSM, holy damn, I'd be afriad to drive that.

In a recent article in Sport Compact Car, they we doing a little project (not sure if anybody read this) They were taking a brand new 10 grand Focus and a 27 grand mustange SVT cobra and they were going to make the focus out run that mustang with the 17 grnad budget (this difference between the two. Now yeah, you say put that 17 grand into the mustang, well, there you go, that's already so much more money spent on the mustang.

I also read before, yeah these domestic are torque monsters, they'll friggin rip about some imports off the line to maybe 60-100mph or so, but with the imports having the high rpm turbo engines, they're going to pull hard in high RPM's. HP is torque over time, and you'll obviously relize you're always in hgih rpms whiule racing. and sure many doemstic have more horsepower, you don't see too many light weight domestic do you, as opposed to a 2500 civic. Although AWD DSM are very heafty.

Well that's all i could think of......Again, one of my dream cars in a 1970 cuda, and another is a 67 trans am, along with the new WS6's. I have mnay dream cars, and they cover a wide wide wide variey of cars.

i here this a lot and it's just ####ing retarded.... so what if you can buy a cheaper car and put the difference in it and makt it faster.. you can buy a $10k focus but putting $15k into it does'nt make it a mustang... just like making an 11 second honda doesn't make it a porsche. the difference in cost is paying for a NICER SUPERIOR CAR not for speed. original cost of car itself is irrelevant when comparing the capability of a car.

 

[MituMIR]

Originally posted by HighPSI TSi Guy
i here this a lot and it's just ####ing retarded.... so what if you can buy a cheaper car and put the difference in it and makt it faster.. you can buy a $10k focus but putting $15k into it does'nt make it a mustang... just like making an 11 second honda doesn't make it a porsche. the difference in cost is paying for a NICER SUPERIOR CAR not for speed. original cost of car itself is irrelevant when comparing the capability of a car.

Well, that's all in your preference, from the posts I read it was about speed. There's no need to get up-set. And one thing's for sure, if I had $1,000,000 I'd for sure buiy a ferrari, porshe, lamborghini, ect. I love those cars, I was just stateing a point. Of corse the point of buying one of those is to have a "superior car" but not everybody wants that. Some people may want to put work into their car to make it out run that exotic sports car. It's all in personal preferance. As I said in my other post, I love ALL cars, except for like 1970 woody wagons, and stupid cars like that I'd love to grow up (I'm only 17), have lots of money and have one old school muscle car, one new school muscle car, fast little import cars, exotic euro cars, truck (work truck for any work I'd possibly need to do) and a luxury car (Audi S8 ) and a full out 4x4 Jeep wrangler or something.

 

[Auladan]

Hey again. havnen't posted in a while..... First off I don't own a muscle car, this was in response to someone that said that I said "I have 8 cylinders so it'll smoke any four cylinder out there regardless."

I never said that. I have also learned alot since then. That post was a long time ago.

Any car can be made to be fast, its all a matter of what you like, and how much money you want to spend.

If you like "muscle cars" (like I do) great. If you like DSM's (like I do) awsome! If you like both, hell all the better! Then you can get the best of both worlds. This is why I own a Talon. Good performer, didn't cost me much and can be made to be fast and be fun to drive.

now down with the hatin

cheers yall

 

[AL92]

First yeah I can believe you could take a viper.Anything can happen on the street especially with standards .He might have been in fifth and you in third and figured he didn't have to downshift to beat a little dsm.

And most people would have no clue just how fast our talons can be.

Anyway I also have some v8 musclecars, a 99 trans am with 450 engine modded,a big block 1980 trans am project car and the wifes slightly modded 1996 z28 vert.

This is my first turbo car.I had turbo bikes,yamaha seco turbos circa 1981.

I really like the talon.It looks decent..for a 12 year old car I still get looks and complements on it.I also love the looks of vettes and my ram air 99 bird and even my 80 ta gets looks and shouts from people.

I respect and like any fast car.Now some fast cars are just plain ugly.4 door cars to me are plain ugly.That includes the wrx and sti and the 4 door evo.I like two door cars period.Even the rx8 is stupid to me.

And you can make anything fast and there will always be a faster car out there.So you just have fun ,stay safe and enjoy your cars.

And I don't think I have seen any dsm past 1000hp.Back even in the 80s they were making big block camaros and stuff with twin turbo kits that put out way over 1000 hp think one was 1600 hp.So yes displacement can help but turbos do a very very good job of making hp and torque.And so does nitrous and superchargers.Oh and those new cobra mustangs are rated 390 hp but put out probably 420 minimum and are super easy to mod up to be like 600 hp.

And another thing the vipers and v8s have is sound.Nothing sounds meaner than a nice big blown big block chevy.Our turbo cars sound nice too but not mean like that.

And agree looks is a big part of these exotic cars.And really you can't drive like an idiot all the time or you will have no liscence.!! or be dead.

 

[dsmjay]

Originally posted by HighPSI TSi Guy
i here this a lot and it's just ####ing retarded.... so what if you can buy a cheaper car and put the difference in it and makt it faster.. you can buy a $10k focus but putting $15k into it does'nt make it a mustang... just like making an 11 second honda doesn't make it a porsche. the difference in cost is paying for a NICER SUPERIOR CAR not for speed. original cost of car itself is irrelevant when comparing the capability of a car.

okay buddy listen...your in the track talk section of the forum. this has to deal with fast cars okay not your really nice show cars are expensive this or that. straight up its all about speed. so why dont you take your "nicer superior car" and take a %&@$ing hike. your a disgrace to the dsm community:thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

I have also learned alot since then. That post was a long time ago.

Auladan, glad to see you learned something. when i first started to read this thread i could have strangled you.

oh and by the way "4g63...the replacement for displacement"
and there is a reason domestic has 4 more cylinders...to keep up with us 4cyl turbos!

 

[JiveMasterT]

i beat an m3 the other day, he weaved through traffic a bit and i followed. he threw on his hazards and i flashed him and i took him from a 2nd gear roll and passed him, but i had to stop cause there was a tractor trailer up ahead and my exit was coming up so i had to change lanes. and to think i did this while driving my sister home from work.... hehe. expensive cars doesnt mean they are faster.

the viper has an 8.3L V10 putting down 500horses at 5600rpms, and 525lbs torque at 4200rpms. so it gets it power in the same area you would, and it weighs about 300 more pounds than you. since you got a built 6 bolt with a 20g, i can see where you could take him. i would like to know what your car dynos at though.

 

[Morphius]

Originally posted by JiveMasterT
since you got a built 6 bolt with a 20g.

Can anyone tell me the real capability of a setup like this? I'm looking for pure HP and Trq #'s.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Originally posted by Morphius
Can anyone tell me the real capability of a setup like this? I'm looking for pure HP and Trq #'s.

If you look at DSMtimes.org.. you'll see a range from 10.7 (John Shepherd) to 13.9 (won't mention names ) on a 20G. So HP-wise your looking at ~240-450+WHP.

 

[Morphius]

Originally posted by DSM90AWD
If you look at DSMtimes.org.. you'll see a range from 10.7 (John Shepherd) to 13.9 (won't mention names ) on a 20G. So HP-wise your looking at ~240-450+WHP.

Ok. Thanks!


The problem I see with any thread like this, is how legitiamate a race it was. Was the other guy REALLY into the gas? Hell, I could state the other day I walked all over a Z06 with my stock GST. Was his foot on the gas pedal, sure. Was he really ON the gas, running me, who knows.

I'd speculate the thread starter isn't putting down Shepards power #'s. But maybe a respectable mid 11's slip (at the track) good for 300-400hp. The viper, depending on the year, is putting down 400+HP and 400+ft lbs trq. Those V-10's have a monsterous wide flat torque curve. Well over 300 after 1200rpm. That's dam near idle. Anyone ridden in a car like this with that much instantaneous torque on a roll? They pull hard and it's instaneous. No lag. Just pull from the go. Sorry, I just don't see the DSM running past the Viper as described if the guy was really into the gas.

 

[unior]

Originally posted by Auladan
well on that note I'd find myself an F-body car. camaro or firebird, spend about....ooooh 4K or so on it and have it in the low 10s.

Love them domestics. Give props to the skylines though. GO V6

It's an inline 6 cylinder ya redneck dosmestic lubber!

 

[90GSX182]

Man a DSM can beat a viper...most pple who have them cant drive them to the low 12s like they say they run stock...some can...my buddy has beaten a viper in his TSI AWD...granted it was an older GTS...it still ran high 12s...any car can be beaten by another car... If Shep ever lined up against a Mlaren F1...he would win in the 1/4 at least...

i am a fan of domestics as much as imports, as well as classics... i will rock a viper anyday over my dsm...but as most of you already know...the best bang for the buck out there in the car world is a turbo DSM bottom line...

 

[Gription]

I have to give mad props to metabolic666 for trashing the viper. I had no idea that one posting could last for a year long debate on what's better 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 cyl. If you want to get technical about why he beat the viper, I would have to say the gear ratios and power to weight ratios. What does a 1g weigh 3000 to 3200 lbs? What does a Viper weigh, with its burly V10 and extra support for the frame and chassis so it doesn't break apart with its 400+ ft/lbs or torque. Nearly 4200 would be my guess. If 666's dsm is even within 75 horsepower/torque of the viper then the power to weight ratio would be in his favor. Don't forget how little traction that the viper would have vs. an awd dsm. All things considered I think the race was legit.

 

[AL92]

Some points would agree on here.A viper I am pretty sure weighs
3600 or so.I don't think they are much heavier than that and certainly not 4200 pounds.My ls1 weighs like 3477 according to stock specs.
So would think the dsm would have about 400 to 500 pounds weight advantage worth about 50 hp.
The other huge advantage is traction.The viper does have a very hard time hooking up on street rubber.
Example though is buddy has a 3500 pound SS .Weight with him in it and 500 hp engine.It runs like 12.5 at 115 at local track on street rubber it would do like a 12.2 at 118 or so at sea level track.So viper should run similar times mabye a bit worse due to v10 having more torque and being harder to hook up.

So this thing is possible.Of course vipers can be modded and you can buy drag radial street type tires for the vipers too that really help hook up but awd is formidable on the street and lighter is better too.

Also possibility of drivers here with six and 5 speed manuals.All it would take is one guy to be in way wrong gear or not bother to downshift ,not take car to redline in each gear etc for someone to badly lose.

Eg.Made some runs against buddies lt1 auto.It was stock .Did a roll on from about 40mph I was in fifth not third by accident..he walked away easily and only started to run him down at very high speeds.
Next run was in third and walked away on him much much faster .I had about 375 hp at the time in my ls1 engine hp.

So driving and what gears an what rear end gears etc play big role in these races.

 

[Morphius]

A stock viper weighs 3447 lbs.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Originally posted by metabolic666
: So i put it in 3rd to let him know i mean business. Well he downshifts and pulls up about a 1 car lengths, I floor it still having it in third and as soon as boost kicks I pull hard on it and just fly by as the guys jaw just drops.

If you read this post closely you can see thru the story...

Viper Downshifts and pulls away >> typical human reaction time .5secs in which he floors the DSM in 3rd Gear at which point he has to make up 1-2 carlengths.

The Viper had to of let off once he pulled away as there is no f-ing way (care to wager?) he'd "Fly By" the Viper at that point.. not unless he had John Shepherd's car

When I was 16 I beat a Corvette with my 1980 Toyota Tercel. Granted by the time I caught him/passed him he was parked.. I beat him nonetheless