Tackeling my first timing job, question regarding removal of cams

[PieEyedPiper]

Well it's about time that I get my hands dirty with a timing job.
I'm going to start on Friday and I'm pretty sure I have everything I need.

My plans are to change all timing components ( incl. bs belt), replace the cam seals and the water pump.

My question is how do I tie these operations all together? I have all the FAQs and how to's and manuals I can find printed out, but I'm still fairly uncertain how removal of the cam gears and the cams themselves to replace the cam seals is going to go down.
Is it important to put the cams back the same way I found them (I'm assuming yes)? How can I be sure that I do? Do the cams only go in the way they came out? Do I have to mess with the lifters to put them back in? Do the cams easily rotate in the head if the gears/belt isn't on? Is that going to be an issue?

Basically I'm just concerned I'll never get the thing back in time if I remove the cams.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Auto RS T]

You don't have to remove the cams to put the cam seals in, only the cam gears. You break these loose by holding the cams after removing the valve cover (there is a wrench spot on the cams) and then breaking the bolts loose that hold the gears on.

Once you get the timing belt off would be the time to do the seals and the waterpump. Put the seals in, reinstall the gears, do the waterpump and put the belt back on. Do the BS belt before the timing belt.

 

[ToughTalon]

You can replace the cam seals without removing the camshafts. If you take the timing belt off and pull the cam gears you can (carefully!) remove the seals with a mechanics pick and carefully install the new cam seals with a hammer and a big socket or just use a drift (a punch) and slowly tap the seals in. To use a drift tap one spot on the seal, then hit another spot about 90 degrees from the first spot and work your way around the seal.

Honestly (in my opinion) the hardest part of this procedure will be breaking the 17mm bolts loose that hold the cam gears on the cams, they are extremely tight from the factory, get your break bar ready and mabey even a helper to hold the cams (unless you have an air compressor and an impact, then they arent nearly as bad).

 

[BogusSVO]

If you plan on pulling the VC, you can un-bolt the 2 bolts on each of the first cam caps( the ones right behind the gears that the seals go in) do that after you break the cam gear bolts loose, and do not mix them up. The are maked as to side and position.
if you loosen or remove the caps, you stand less a chance to damnaging the new cam seal when you install them.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

All 3 of you guys are awesome. You guys cleared everything up for me perfectly.
I'll let you know how it goes!

 

[Calan]

I would pick up Jay's timing tools if you haven't already...at least the cam gear locking tool. They make a t-belt job WAY easier. There is a thread about them going on here.

Like everyone said, you don't have to pull the cams...but pulling and reinstalling them isn't a big deal at all as long as you pay attention to the order and orientation of the caps. (They are numbered just in case).

Have fun!

 

[-red97rum-]

You don't need to remove the cams to do the timing belt. I use a big crescent wrench on the "wrench spot" on the camshaft to break the cam gear bolts loose. Wedge a block of wood between the crescent wrench and the head when breaking the bolts loose, those suckers are tight!

If you do remove the cams it's a good idea to bleed the oil out of lifters before you re-install them. You don't want any valves to kiss a piston. When you install the cams put the caps on according to their marked number. It doesn't matter how the cams go in as long as you have the intake on the intake side and so on Get the cams close to their final position before you put cylinder no. 1 at TDC to avoid hitting an open valve with a piston, unlikely but better safe than sorry. You will get everything in time when you line up all the timing marks associated with a timing belt job. Just take your time and it will go smoothly.

 

[Calan]

Get the cams close to their final position before you put cylinder no. 1 at TDC to avoid hitting an open valve with a piston, unlikely but better safe than sorry.

Good point. I find it easiest to rotate the crank 90* so the pistons are centered in the bores. Then you can install the cams with them resting where they want, which makes it easier to bolt the caps on since you aren't fighting against compressed valve springs.

Once the cams are bolted down, turn them so the dowels are at 12:00, then rotate the motor to TDC, and start the t-belt job.

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

If you do remove the cams it's a good idea to bleed the oil out of lifters before you re-install them. You don't want any valves to kiss a piston. When you install the cams put the caps on according to their marked number. It doesn't matter how the cams go in as long as you have the intake on the intake side and so on Get the cams close to their final position before you put cylinder no. 1 at TDC to avoid hitting an open valve with a piston, unlikely but better safe than sorry. You will get everything in time when you line up all the timing marks associated with a timing belt job. Just take your time and it will go smoothly.

Agreed. Its a little more work, but while you're at it now is a good time to get stuff like this done. I'd actually recommend purchasing revised lifters for about $100 as they have bigger oil ports. It'll perform better and get of that nasty lifter tick most DSMs have these days. It's a very simple procedure. And like others have said, if you remove the cams, make sure you keep the cam caps marked and in order. But, there is an article here (I'll look for the link) on how to remove/install lifters with the cams in. You need a special tool (or talent and a flat head) to do this.

Good luck! Doing this stuff yourself is the best way to learn and save tons of money in the future! T-belt jobs at a shop can get up to $1,000 or so!!!

 

[DSMunknown]

Might want to consider changing all the oil seals on the timing belt side while you're at it.

Read through this thread for some additional help, even though they discuss 6-bolts. For specific 7-bolt help, I'm sending a PM.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Stage 1 complete.

The timing belt covers, the motor mount, the VC, harmonic balancer, and all acc. belts have been removed. I've also replaced the cam seals. And furthermore, I've taken great pride in putting the engine at TDC and slashing the timing belt.

Loosening/removing the cam caps on the gear side helped immensely in picking out the old cam seals, but what leaked out from there, as I disturbed the area, was straight from hell. A black ooze (oil) that was as rank as burning flesh.

Stage 2 is tomorrow.

 

[DSMunknown]

So you're not replacing the rest of the oil seals?

 

[Killa_dsm]

Good to hear your attempting the timing belt job. If I was back in the States I would be there helping you out! Either way good luck, and I told you it wasn't that hard!

Just take your time and you should be fine.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

So you're not replacing the rest of the oil seals?

Haha, I knew you'd be the one to hassle me! The only seals I'm replacing are the cam seals, the valve cover gaskets, the water pump gasket, and if I remembered to order the front main seal I'll do that one too. I'm sure there are some that I didn't plan for. Likely from ignorance.
Pulling the front case, OFH and whatever else is just too involved for me at this moment. I knew going into this that I would have a very small window for being "allowed" to use the garage for this project. It's complicated.
I just couldn't afford the time between work and my scheduled 2 days in the garage to do such a major overhaul. I needed it to be fairly inclusive but be possible for a first timer to accomplish the task with deadlines and a reasonable margin of error. Besides, I have a haunch my engine will die of something much worse than my failure to give it a real comprehensive job.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Right now I'm trying to get the crank bolt off. If anyone has any advice, now is the time!

No air tools etc, but I do have the crank tool from the ebay vendor who sells the miller tool, the threaded rod and crank tool as a package. The crank tool is much more plain jane than the vfaq version. No bends and only has bolt holes on one end.

At cylinder 1 TDC, will the valves all be closed enough for me to rotate the crank? If the crank rotates will I bend valves (bump the starter method)?

EDIT: before anyone says anything, yes, I now know I should have left the timing belt on in order to remove the crank bolt.

 

[Auto RS T]

You can rotate the cams and watch the rockers move the valves. Just move them into a posistion where most of them are sucked up in the head, then move them back to TDC when you go to do the t-belt.

Do you have a link to the crank tool you are using?

Have you considered dropping the oil pan and putting a block of wood with a towel wrapped around it to hold the crank?

 

[lacroixdp]

Just put the car in gear and put something between your rims to prevent the wheels from spinning. You'll have more than enough stopping power then to get the crank bolt off. Or better yet, just put your breaker bar on there and blip the starter - that's the preferred method. When you get ready to put the new front main on, put a very thin coat of RTV sealant on the outside... it will slide very easily into place.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Crank bolt is dealt with, more on that later. Thanks for the replies.
Currently I'm attempting to set the tensioner.

 

[1990AWD]

make sure you get the timing belt tensioner pully right other wise it won't keep the timing belt tight all around

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Tension = set.
What a PITA though, you get the tension just perfect and then when you go to snug the tensioner bolt up just that last little bit...it loosens the pulley. Loosen the bolt a little and it tightens right into spec..but now there's not enough torque on the tensioner bolt.. I finally got it right by guesstimating how far I should over tension the belt so that I could somewhat predict how much looser it would get when I gave the tensioner bolt one last twist.
After 6 revolutions the timing marks all added up and the tensioner pin was still loose. The drill bit trick is probably meant for when an engine is out of the car. I used the 5/32 and the 11/64 as mentioned but it was so cramped in there I only "think" the small bit fit and the 11/64 was a tad on the large side. It's hard to be sure of anything but since the pin was still loose I just rolled with it and yanked the sucker out.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

ACK!
No, no nothing exploded, but my A/C Tensioner Pulley is rubbing my timing covers pretty bad making a nice sound that I'd rather be rid of.

 

[TastyTalon]

Sweet job tackling this project, its always great to learn how to do more stuff

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Sweet job tackling this project, its always great to learn how to do more stuff

It's fantastic. But it was a bit of a bumpy road for me. Having a co-pilot would have made things much easier!

Well, let me quickly re-cap how this all went down.
I tore down all the shields and covers etc. and popped the valve cover. Next I removed all acc. belts and pullies. Then without thinking, too excited to revel in the moment, I slashed the timing belt at TDC but not before breaking loose the crank bolt. I ignored that problem and broke the cam gears loose, picked out the cam seals and replaced them.
Check out what I had to use to break the cam gear bolts:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

That's right, I used a bikerack made for 3 bikes to break those bastards loose! That shit is literally 4ft long and somehow fit my wrench perfectly. Score.

I was now in a bit of a pickle, no air tools and I my crank tool was, well, rudimentary at best. I had no idea how I was going to break the crank bolt loose. I was too afraid to do the "bump the starter" method as I would likely over spin the crank and bend valves. In a similar thread I read that if the cams are at TDC cyl. 1 then all valves will be closed sufficiently to rotate the crank without worry. With some advice from Chris, ( Strm Trpr ) we decided that was horseshit and that we'd at least be bending valves on cylinders 2 and 3. F^ck.

So this is how that turned out:
<a href="http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/?action=view&current=Picture001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/Picture001.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
So much for not having to take out the cams! On the bright side cam removal and reinstallation is cake. I have no idea what I was so worried about, I figure it was just fear of the unknown.

Everything was pretty clean inside there though. All the varnish and staining came off with little more than a rub. Not too shabby for 73k of abuse and 47k of love. Sorry this isn't a pic once it was all cleaned up:
<a href="http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/?action=view&current=Picture003.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/Picture003.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

So now that the cams were out it was safe to use the start method and break that SOB loose! That went something like this:
<a href="http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/?action=view&current=Picture.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/Picture.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/?action=view&current=Picture007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/Picture007.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/?action=view&current=Picture008.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e278/PieEyedPiper/Picture008.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Off to Kragen for the biggest breaker bar I could get. That one passed the test and the starter + breaker bar combo worked like a charm.

Like I mentioned, setting the correct tension was a bi*** but not actually difficult. Just tedious. Getting everything in time was also easy as pie. All I had to do was put the thing back together, and that's where I started to hate life. As if taking the timing covers off wasn't bad enough, good god. Putting them back on was far worse...and that damned AC pulley! I was ready to kill something. My hand is bright red, cut, bruised and puffy from trying to reinstall that pulley. My hands were just too large. I wished I had small girl hands instead.
I changed the oil and some other minor stuff and then once it was all together again it was the moment of truth. She fired up with almost no issue! I'm now cursed though with what I believe to be that damned pulley rubbing on the lower timing cover. Suuuch a terrible noise. It's gone at idle now, but at 2k it comes back with a vengeance.

And here's where I have an admission to make. I had one bolt left over. And you guessed it, it anchored that side of the lower timing cover that would likely hold the cover tight enough to not rub on the pulley.

I certainly wasn't going to tear it down again, nor do I intend to. Hopefully the metal pulley will eat the plastic sufficiently to stop making that whirring/rubbing sound.

And of course thanks to everyone who contributed and helped me out via PM, phone calls, etc. Woulda been lost without you guys! It was a fantastic learning experience to do it with basic tools and basic know-how.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Well the whirring sound hasn't stopped or gone away...and that's after I cut the A/C belt off. So it's not entirely the A/C pulley, though it was clear it was rubbing a little. The sound is quite high pitched and is rotational. It increases in intensity and frequency with rpms.

I've put 70 miles on it now and everything is great, performance even seems better, but this damned sound hasn't gone away. So much for crossing my fingers.
Anyone have any ideas?

 

[romeen]

It sounds like your timing belt might be too tight.

Are you using a standard type or kevlar (blue colored) timing belt?