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Supercharger/turbo setup....

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TT_NS

15+ Year Contributor
203
1
Dec 2, 2003
all right guys i got an interesting setup. i drew up two diagrams for the 1g dsm with a supercharger and a turbo. one is more basic then the other. on the first set up i have the turbo connected before the supercharger. The reason for this is that it is a simpler set up. You would not half to worry about "back wash" if you would. The idea behind this set up is that the supercharger would simply suck air threw the same intake as the turbo. giving the engine boost while the turbo is taking its time spooling up. then when the turbo spools up it will increase boost. Although i find this a really crapy set up LOL. There would be so much air friction going on in this. First from the turbo being in the way of the supercharger and visa versa. So i thought id try something a little more interesting. Then i came up with the second diagram. In this one the supercharger has its own intake which will reduce friction. But this is where i run into a problem. When the boost being created transfers from the supercharger to the turbo i need to release all pressure being created by the supercharger so i can close off that entire area with a valve that will prevent the turbos pressure from being pushed back out the supercharger. Make since? Dose any one know of a anything that works like a BOV but releases under certain pressure? Any way the pressure from the turbo will shut the valve to the supercharger. hope you can picture how that would work. I was also thinking for either application i could fabricate a pulley or use the one off the A/C on the car so the Supercharger could be turned off and on by a clutch just like the A/C. Although i wouldn't have any idea how i could control the relay from turneing off and on without me hitting a button. that might be to complex for me. I noticed if you take out the A/C you have plenty of space for a Vortech supercharger in that area. That is my plan. Its nice to come up with something a little different then what other people are doing. Just another way to get the power so please don't bash the idea. But let me know some ideas you guys come up with. This would take allot of fabrication but im up for the work.:thumb:
 

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Just curious. What fuel are you using? If you say pump gas then hands down you are a tuning god!:thumb:

I wish I was that good at tuning. On the factory computer, with my code in it, I was running 28psi total with a 6gph methanol and pump fuel. Without the meth I'm in trouble at 20-21 range, once the intake heats up a little. First pull is always the best. Once I engage the meth I can make repeated pulls without much knock, it is cruise conditions that get the intake hot.

So the short answer is yes all this is on pump fuel with meth, I may be going back to the factory computer if I can't get this AEM sorted, GVR4592 is having a look at my mess right now, we'll see what he thinks.......
 
Ok two more questions, what changes in the software did you make when you set up the ems for your injectors and what brand of injectors are you using right now?
 
Ok two more questions, what changes in the software did you make when you set up the ems for your injectors and what brand of injectors are you using right now?

I'm not sure I can answer the first one completely, as one of the techs had me change injectors several times to see "what the car liked" using the wizards. I know those modify values all over the place.

They are PTE 680's right now.

The 850's are from FIC.
 
Any updates?

Going back to the factory ECU with my code in it, fixing a couple of injector seals that are leaking, then I think it will be time to drive it for a bit while I build the new engine. The rings have to be getting kinda thin. I'm still headed for the dyno, I just need a solid tune first. The factory computer was working well, I just need to write a little code for the supercharger bypass for highway cruise conditions to keep the intake temps down.

More news when it happens :)
 
To all you guys wondering about a twin turbo setup check this link http://www.3k-warner.de/en/products/r2s.asp that looks like the only way to do a twin turbo on a small 4 cylinder. Although I do remember hearing(I wanna say corky bell but I am not sure) that the minimum displacement a sequential/two staged turbo setup will be effecient at is a 3.0L or larger motor....our motors don't fit the bill, however after seeing this tubo/supercharger setup I guess anything is possible
 
To all you guys wondering about a twin turbo setup check this link http://www.3k-warner.de/en/products/r2s.asp that looks like the only way to do a twin turbo on a small 4 cylinder. Although I do remember hearing(I wanna say corky bell but I am not sure) that the minimum displacement a sequential/two staged turbo setup will be effecient at is a 3.0L or larger motor....our motors don't fit the bill, however after seeing this tubo/supercharger setup I guess anything is possible

Nice link. While I'm sure it could be adapted, that setup looks heavy and bulky as hell. I can't imagine stuffing that system into our engine bays or having that much more weight past the front axles. :notgood:

Ray: If you're looking to get that AEM ECU out of your garage you can donate it to me ;)
 
I can give you a map that will make the car driveable and pretty close to a final tune, but it will be setup for speed density. Let me know if you're interested.
 
A twin turbo setup is not going to be worth the time on a 4 cylinder. Theonly time twin turbos work is on a V8. Supra guys and even me have gone with a single turbo on 6 cylinders. I have a single turbo on my VR4 because I get more power from it!
 
To all you guys wondering about a twin turbo setup check this link http://www.3k-warner.de/en/products/r2s.asp that looks like the only way to do a twin turbo on a small 4 cylinder. Although I do remember hearing(I wanna say corky bell but I am not sure) that the minimum displacement a sequential/two staged turbo setup will be effecient at is a 3.0L or larger motor....our motors don't fit the bill, however after seeing this tubo/supercharger setup I guess anything is possible

Actually Doug Derby (Doug's Dynopwer) built a twin turbo Laser. He showed me the car when I lived in Vegas several years ago. Unfortunately I don't recall much about the specifics, except that the manifold he fabricated actually looked pretty nice. I do vividly remember him saying the reason he did it was because somebody told him "it couldn't be done." He has since sold the car.
 
I can give you a map that will make the car driveable and pretty close to a final tune, but it will be setup for speed density. Let me know if you're interested.

I am interested for sure, I spoke with the AEM guru here in phoenix and he wouldn't even undertake tuning with MAF so looks like I am converting for the tests. I'm willing to test some more this week and next on the old engine, but then its swap time, there's rally cross events coming up and I am hoping to be ready for a decent showing. A fresh engine should help things a bunch as will the new intake manifold that will include a intercooler. Anyone know anyone who might have a sheet metal intake that they don't like/want? I'm not sure it will make any difference as all I will be using of it is the runners. The factory runners are quite good, and once shortened they are even better.

So to go speed density, I need the GM MAP sensor and a IAT sensor?

Also going back to the smaller supercharger pulley, this one is fine on the street, but more is better. :thumb:

What vehicles are these sensors out of?
 
Actually Doug Derby (Doug's Dynopwer) built a twin turbo Laser. He showed me the car when I lived in Vegas several years ago. Unfortunately I don't recall much about the specifics, except that the manifold he fabricated actually looked pretty nice. I do vividly remember him saying the reason he did it was because somebody told him "it couldn't be done." He has since sold the car.

Yeah I saw the car while I was in Vegas I think, it didn't work as well as it looked, his workmanship was impressive, and the idea was good, but these little engines just don't make much hot exhaust at low rpm's. Although a revisit with some of the modern little BB turbos might yeild some resourceful person better results. I've got enough on my plate right now, but I'll look into the numbers if anyone's interested, start a new thread.
 
A twin turbo setup is not going to be worth the time on a 4 cylinder. Theonly time twin turbos work is on a V8. Supra guys and even me have gone with a single turbo on 6 cylinders. I have a single turbo on my VR4 because I get more power from it!

From what I've seen thats a common misconception. On a V8, I know that twins make more power than a single of the same flow. On VR4's the highest hp ones are still the TT setups, even with people now using gt42s. Nelson Bernarde made 950awhp or something before his crank snapped with twin gt4096's or something. As for supras, the common theory is that a inline engine benefits from a single more, where a V6 will benefit more from twins

Btw, to the OP, what made you stick a 6g72 in a dsm? Sounds like a lot of work for little reason, since you cant make as much power with it and its more expensive to fix. Points for the cool factor on these projects though, love the setup on this car here
 
How about keeping all the gawdamndretardedbeatentodeath twin turbo crap out of this thread?

If you have something to offer about Ray's setup or about the use of a supercharger by all means, please post it. -I'd just hate to see this thread end up tacked onto the one I'm about to link to.

If you have something to say about twin turbos, do it here instead. I don't imagine there's much left to say about it after the 943 combined thread posts. Go ahead. Somebody prove me wrong.
 
On your intake did you not have a 1g maf and then later on up the pipe a Gm maf ? Thats what confused me. Do intake temps rise pretty quickly? Are you running a front mount ?
 
yea he is.

deflator said:
Btw, to the OP, what made you stick a 6g72 in a dsm? Sounds like a lot of work for little reason, since you cant make as much power with it and its more expensive to fix. Points for the cool factor on these projects though, love the setup on this car here

Who cares if its better or worse than a 4g63 that fact is that he did it and is probably one of the only ones whove done it. Besides a 3.0 v6 twin turbo should have a broader powerband than a 4g63, and more torque potiential. Yea its harder to work on you are right about that.
 
yea he is.



Who cares if its better or worse than a 4g63 that fact is that he did it and is probably one of the only ones whove done it. Besides a 3.0 v6 twin turbo should have a broader powerband than a 4g63, and more torque potiential. Yea its harder to work on you are right about that.

I could careless if its faster or slower i jus think its bad ass that he did it.
 
On your intake did you not have a 1g maf and then later on up the pipe a Gm maf ? Thats what confused me. Do intake temps rise pretty quickly? Are you running a front mount ?

No 1G maf around here that I can find, :) I use the stock airfilter housing, but there's nothing in it but a K&N. I have an EVO III FMIC for the turbo, and some meth for the supercharger.

This setup has reached the end of its life, going to build another intake mani, and this time I'll be intercooling both stages :thumb: it just goes to reason if one front mount is good, 2 must be better. And for those that want to ask how in the heck I'm gonna get all that up in there, I hope the suspense doesn't kill ya, photos when I get it done.

The temp rise from the supercharger with the current pressure ratio is about 110 deg F across the board, so the meth cools it 70 or so, and its about 100 deg max coming from the turbo. It isn't too bad until I drive it on the highway for a long time under light throttle. This seems to get things all warmed up and then the heat soak takes a bit to get rid of. The second stage of intercooling should fix this problem forever, now I just have to make a split manifold that flows decent and fits in the dang car....


And a little teaser..... I got a video of a rolling 2-4 pull done at a racetrack, Posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K1fq0OGacY
 
AH why did you remove the video?

Sorry about the confusion on the video, youtube was a little too picky about format, and my camera records in QT only, so I had to come up with a conversion. Link should work now.

Tonight's goal is fixing a boost leak I discovered last night and raising the boost another 5psi. Maybe get started on the new manifold, we'll see how the night goes.
 
Yeah, I'm trying a couple different camera mounts. The one used for that video (type Kenny:) sucks. I'm looking for one that holds my screwy shaped camera and will glass mount to the sunroof. Keep ya posted.
 
yea a speedo shot would be good, and i cant barely understand whats going on on your laptop screen. Your speedo looks weird, like do you have an aftermarket gauge cluster because it doesnt look dsm like. Also maybe placing the camera on the center console between the two seats might provide a slightly better view of everything going on.
 
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