Supercharger/turbo setup....

[TT_NS]

all right guys i got an interesting setup. i drew up two diagrams for the 1g dsm with a supercharger and a turbo. one is more basic then the other. on the first set up i have the turbo connected before the supercharger. The reason for this is that it is a simpler set up. You would not half to worry about "back wash" if you would. The idea behind this set up is that the supercharger would simply suck air threw the same intake as the turbo. giving the engine boost while the turbo is taking its time spooling up. then when the turbo spools up it will increase boost. Although i find this a really crapy set up . There would be so much air friction going on in this. First from the turbo being in the way of the supercharger and visa versa. So i thought id try something a little more interesting. Then i came up with the second diagram. In this one the supercharger has its own intake which will reduce friction. But this is where i run into a problem. When the boost being created transfers from the supercharger to the turbo i need to release all pressure being created by the supercharger so i can close off that entire area with a valve that will prevent the turbos pressure from being pushed back out the supercharger. Make since? Dose any one know of a anything that works like a BOV but releases under certain pressure? Any way the pressure from the turbo will shut the valve to the supercharger. hope you can picture how that would work. I was also thinking for either application i could fabricate a pulley or use the one off the A/C on the car so the Supercharger could be turned off and on by a clutch just like the A/C. Although i wouldn't have any idea how i could control the relay from turneing off and on without me hitting a button. that might be to complex for me. I noticed if you take out the A/C you have plenty of space for a Vortech supercharger in that area. That is my plan. Its nice to come up with something a little different then what other people are doing. Just another way to get the power so please don't bash the idea. But let me know some ideas you guys come up with. This would take allot of fabrication but im up for the work.

 

[eclipsh]

Ray, after digging through this muck on street racing, could you respond to posts 98 & 106? Thanks!

 

[RayPeters]

Wow thats really bada$$ been reading since the very beginning....Very impressive with this install.....I guarantee that over 1/2 of us could never even imagine this kinda install....

You were saying bout there being very little room to work....I seen a few areas you could be improved if need be
1. Relocate Battery

Already in the trunk

2. Remove CC get a 1.8 NT throttle cable

I drive this car everyday, and I'm a lazy american The CC stays

3. If your HC remove p/s and put a 1.8 mauel rack in or go with an unassisted p/s rack (I love the feel of it personally)

Try a rallycross or autocross with no PS, you'll be cussin a blue streak I want more assist not less.

4. You already said your gonna get new pipes made...when you buddy is done with moving stuff from his shop...


But what I think is the craziest thing......You still retain the A/C.....thats gotta be the greatest....plus must be fun to work around sometimes....dealing with the entire belt situation....

I might not have caught it earlier but exactly which pulley is the belt connected too???you still got p/s, a/c, so you got me at a standstill wondering...

I'll continue to read and be in awe about your ride...

It is driven with the A/C. The tensioner has "a few" hours of re-design to deal with the added belt loads and not deflect and de-rail the belt under high rpm/load situations. The A/C has only been a problem with the belt and the intercooler. kinda cramps my style up front for cooling in the summer time.

One of my goals with this car was to retain the comforts it came with and achieve some big performance numbers. If I lived up north the A/C would have long ago been lost but here in phoenix it will be the engine's dying breath driving that A/C in july.

 

[RayPeters]

It looks like this setup shoots the supercharged air straight into the intake.

Would it be better to run that air to the intercooler first? I understand that you are using methanol to cool air temps but as a D/D I think that'd end up being impractical.

I am picturing locating the supercharger underneath the intake manifold where the AC pump is and running the air down under the timing belt to a FMIC and then back up to the intake. The other option being one of those SC's that had a long shaft and mounting it above the air intake/tranny area.

Would it destroy the turbo if the SC were placed before it in sequence? Any gains/losses from this setup?

I too had thought about a SC inline for instant throttle response. Glad someone did it but damn is that a lot of ECU work!

1. It does, but with the meth it isn't so bad, only +80 over outside temp.
THe amount of meth I spray is limited to enough to eliminate knock no more.
2. I'm not giving up my A/C. However I looked at that and it seemed like a possibility and I may produce another intake that includes intercooling.
2.5) I talked with Eaton about a super long nose drive like that and it was a bad idea, the shock loads in the input drive are high already, a long shaft like that would be scary for hard shifts.
3. Actually Eaton would prefer the turbo to be second, but they understand that from a packaging standpoint it is a problem. Nothing bad will happen to the turbo from the higher pressure air it is just as happy as the SC being second in line. All it will take is a fancy manifold and some 50 feet of intake piping to get 2 FMIC loops in there and then I can hook it all up in any order I want. Maybe I can get one of the shops that does custom intakes to hook me up when I get ready for that.

 

[RayPeters]

Looking in eBay, that SC you have looks like it came off a GM 3800 series V-6. Is that correct? If so, they can be had for only $2-300...

The short answer is yes, however there are several variations used for different vehicles. There are m62's, MP62's, both long and short nosed, then the newer m90's and mp90's. I might try an mp90 for my next built, but they are even bigger than the 62 I have in there now, gonna be a real stuff job. the "p" indicates internal bypass.

 

[1gcrazy]

Not to jack your thread but me and my buddy were in Math class our senior year and we thought up a dual turbo setup...not sure if it would work. A t25 for the quick spool and the 50 trim for top end stuff...
Just an idea, kind of reminded me when I read this.
Great job, can't wait to see a dyno number, that or a 40-100 TRACK run

 

[eclipsh]

I just watched an m62 SC go for $130 on eBay... Damn school and my lack of funds...

So if the SC were first in line it could run directly to the turbo and then out to a FMIC? I wonder if there is enough room behind the A/C pump to squeeze a small SC in and run the MAS over where the battery is now to run intake piping over to the SC, then run the outlet to the turbo and then out front to the SMIC... I'm sure the turbo would be more efficient if the air were cooled before reaching it but who wants two ICs and all that piping? (besides 3kgt ppl)...

Alternatively, if someone did want to use an SMIC they could rout the super charger to the driver's side fender well and back over to the turbo from there. Still a lot of piping but with the SC I doubt it would matter much.

I was also thinking a non-gated S/C would be usable this way as the BOV and the turbo WG should handle everything, right?

If the SC were running x2 instead of x3 and pushing out less air, would the tuning be substantially easier?

 

[RayPeters]

Not to jack your thread but me and my buddy were in Math class our senior year and we thought up a dual turbo setup...not sure if it would work. A t25 for the quick spool and the 50 trim for top end stuff...
Just an idea, kind of reminded me when I read this.
Great job, can't wait to see a dyno number, that or a 40-100 TRACK run

It is possible, but the little turbo "gets in the way" of the bigger one, mostly n the exhaust, have to have a good plan and some room for all that plumbing. Should work, when ya gonna show us some pics??

 

[RayPeters]

I just watched an m62 SC go for $130 on eBay... Damn school and my lack of funds...

The common GTP one is longer than what I used, might work haven't tried it.

So if the SC were first in line it could run directly to the turbo and then out to a FMIC? I wonder if there is enough room behind the A/C pump to squeeze a small SC in and run the MAS over where the battery is now to run intake piping over to the SC, then run the outlet to the turbo and then out front to the SMIC... I'm sure the turbo would be more efficient if the air were cooled before reaching it but who wants two ICs and all that piping? (besides 3kgt ppl)...

The next iteration of this probably will include a DUAL FMIC I just needed to test the theory first.

Alternatively, if someone did want to use an SMIC they could rout the super charger to the driver's side fender well and back over to the turbo from there. Still a lot of piping but with the SC I doubt it would matter much.

I was also thinking a non-gated S/C would be usable this way as the BOV and the turbo WG should handle everything, right?

No, still need to be able to bypass the SC under certain conditions (idle)

If the SC were running x2 instead of x3 and pushing out less air, would the tuning be substantially easier?

Maybe, but the hit I'm looking for down low wouldn't be as impressive, and that's what I'm after. I got it under control now with the AEM, I just wanted to do it with the factory ECU for the "stealth" factor. Not many DSM's roll with no piggyback computer and have this kind of performance.

 

[stockfornow]

Not to jack your thread but me and my buddy were in Math class our senior year and we thought up a dual turbo setup...not sure if it would work. A t25 for the quick spool and the 50 trim for top end stuff...
Just an idea, kind of reminded me when I read this.
Great job, can't wait to see a dyno number, that or a 40-100 TRACK run

What a heck??? You people just like read my mind. Yes, it would be possible. Some crazy piping through. You would have to have a big wastegate on your T25 (I was thinking with a turbo off a VW, they spool very quick), and recycly your WG, and exhaust gases from a T25 into the 50 trim turbo. I have everything planned out this way, too. But there's only one thing that I can't figure out. Is when you have like 15psi from your T25 flowing into the piping, and then later at higher rpms, the 50 trim will outflow the piping, and it will start flowing air backwards/towards the small turbo. There has to be some sort of valve that will be able to close at the backpressure of a bigger turbo on a small one. I have drawings of it, but man, I don't get any credit for that anymore. Well, I was thinking that valve would have to be a throttle body plate to close the backpressure of a bigger turbo, but also a WG, so the charge air can exit out of it, when it's closed.

Well, I guess. I just gave away my other idea. And I'm serious, I had thinked of it on my own. I can also post you guys a picture, if you want, of my diagram, since I won't be the 1st one to come up with something one of a kind. I also hope that somebody understand what I wrote, and sorry for the long post.......

 

[JayRolla]

Wheres the pics of the other talon you have v6 TT??

 

[DSM-Talon-John]

Wouldnt you end up blowing your t-25, you would limited to what 16psi, doesnt sound fun to me.

 

[kronus]

Wheres the pics of the other talon you have v6 TT??

+1. I'm dying to see these pics.

 

[tsiturbomm]

What a heck??? You people just like read my mind. Yes, it would be possible. Some crazy piping through. You would have to have a big wastegate on your T25 (I was thinking with a turbo off a VW, they spool very quick), and recycly your WG, and exhaust gases from a T25 into the 50 trim turbo. I have everything planned out this way, too. But there's only one thing that I can't figure out. Is when you have like 15psi from your T25 flowing into the piping, and then later at higher rpms, the 50 trim will outflow the piping, and it will start flowing air backwards/towards the small turbo. There has to be some sort of valve that will be able to close at the backpressure of a bigger turbo on a small one. I have drawings of it, but man, I don't get any credit for that anymore. Well, I was thinking that valve would have to be a throttle body plate to close the backpressure of a bigger turbo, but also a WG, so the charge air can exit out of it, when it's closed.

Well, I guess. I just gave away my other idea. And I'm serious, I had thinked of it on my own. I can also post you guys a picture, if you want, of my diagram, since I won't be the 1st one to come up with something one of a kind. I also hope that somebody understand what I wrote, and sorry for the long post.......

Well if it is a 6 cylinder inline or V, it should work perfectly, I have thought about it for years but dont have the funds for the 3k to try it. Run the t25 off of one set of 3 cylinders and the other much bigger turbo off the other 3!

 

[dieseltech]

Twin turbo setups are old news. Most of the stuff you guys think is new, is very old in it's ideas. The differences now being newer technologies of old concepts. For example the new Ford powerstroke uses a twin turbo setup. One turbo is a VGT (veriable geometry turbo) the other a "normal" turbo. It uses a sort of series parralel coupler that allows it to feed the other turbo for quick spool and to go into parallel for the high end.

I did have a question for Ray tho: would an M45 off a mercedes slk with an electric clutch work well?? I would think the electric clutch would offer better controllability and have a cleaner install. But of course you are also puttin more load on the electrical system. Would the pros outweigh the cons? thanks.

 

[RayPeters]

Twin turbo setups are old news. Most of the stuff you guys think is new, is very old in it's ideas. The differences now being newer technologies of old concepts. For example the new Ford powerstroke uses a twin turbo setup. One turbo is a VGT (veriable geometry turbo) the other a "normal" turbo. It uses a sort of series parralel coupler that allows it to feed the other turbo for quick spool and to go into parallel for the high end.

I did have a question for Ray tho: would an M45 off a mercedes slk with an electric clutch work well?? I would think the electric clutch would offer better controllability and have a cleaner install. But of course you are also puttin more load on the electrical system. Would the pros outweigh the cons? thanks.

1. I agree, and had said earlier in this thread, that what I am doing has been done before, just not to this vehicle.

2. the M45 is a little small for the 575cfm I am trying to flow, I'd have to have the bypass setup and only use it down low, then flow around it with just the turbo. This seemed too complicated for the intended application (rally). Because of the restrictor for rally big horsepower is out of the question, so I am after max torque.

 

[RayPeters]

If you need help with the AEM just post the questions in this thread and I'll help you out.

Ok, I feel I am a smart person, but this AEM has a rather steep learning curve.

1. I'm having an issue with idle surge, never had it with the stock ecu. Hasn't been an issue until today when I hooked up the wideband, I wasn't going to use the feedback. From the data I can watch the AF ratio rise to over 21, then idle speed falls to <5oorpm and it engages the startup loop again, AF drops to 11 or so, repeat cycle.

2. Scaling the MAF setup, I am not willing to go MAP yet, once I see this work well enough to want to keep it, then I'll probably convert.

AEM has been helpful enough, but not with any real numbers, just " you'll have to play with the MAF scalar.

I can PM the config file if you need it, the only other known issue is the number 3 injector seal isn't perfect, just found that last night too.

Ant other suggestions are welcome, if this continues to be an issue, I'll probably go megasquirt, I've used them on other cars and I understand how it ticks.

Thanks for the help.

 

[GVR4592]

I don't know anybody that has successfully used a stock maf sensor with AEM.

If the idle surge didn't start until you connected the wideband, then feedback is probably enabled and causing sudden changes in A/F. I would disable it for now.

 

[GVR4592]

Did you rescale your load and rpms breakpoints?

 

[this_tsi_8urV8]

Good question. ^^^ I thought about that.

 

[RayPeters]

Did you rescale your load and rpms breakpoints?

Some, but not sure what the values should be. The range is now large enough that I think a full load full rpm pull would net me about 80% of the map. This is how I set the maps in the factory ECU I've been hacking code into for years now.

I did make "some progress" on the idle thing. I set the min o2 feedback rpm to 1200 for now, and also flattened the timing based idle speed map. that helped a bunch, now a little mixture fine tuning and I might be happy.

This isn't the stock MAF, It's the GM MAF.

If I was still on any mitsu maf, I'd agree with the skeptics on the power I'm making.

 

[GVR4592]

Make sure you set the breakpoints in the injector phasing table to the same values you used for your other breakpoints. That might get things a little smoother at low rpm's. I'd also try lowering the microsec/bit to get some more fueling resolution at idle.

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,11494.0.html

These guys explain it far better than I can, just ignore the boost comp tuning for now, and read the microsec/bit section. You might want to change to boost comp later, but for now I would just do cell by cell tuning.

If you wouldn't mind posting your calibration I can take a quick look at it and give you some suggestions.

 

[RayPeters]

Make sure you set the breakpoints in the injector phasing table to the same values you used for your other breakpoints. That might get things a little smoother at low rpm's. I'd also try lowering the microsec/bit to get some more fueling resolution at idle.

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,11494.0.html

These guys explain it far better than I can, just ignore the boost comp tuning for now, and read the microsec/bit section. You might want to change to boost comp later, but for now I would just do cell by cell tuning.

If you wouldn't mind posting your calibration I can take a quick look at it and give you some suggestions.

Thanks for the advice. I will look at that for sure. Need to get more time to work on this. Attached it the CAL file, be gentle on me....

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

File is a compressed archive change extension to .rar and uncompress with winrar.

 

[GVR4592]

What size fuel injectors are you using?

 

[be989]

Just curious. What fuel are you using? If you say pump gas then hands down you are a tuning god!

 

[RayPeters]

What size fuel injectors are you using?

690cc right now, I pulled the 850's to get them cleaned and tested, I had an injector connector catch fire and needed to be sure I don't have a damaged injector. Things got a little screwy with the map when I resized for the injectors, it seems rich in the upper load areas. It's good up 6 or 7 load rows, out to 5000, which is fine for now.

I should have them back in a couple of days then I'll be back to normal 850's. I run 50psi base fuel pressure, that was from the factory ecu, and I've not changed it for this.