ECMlink Starting to tune WOT

[Nate355RS]

It's about 37* here so I figured it'd be a good time to do a pull. The VE tables obviously needs a little work but I wanted you guys to take a look and see if you see anything that stands out. I'm just starting to tune WOT so I'm only running about 16psi and my AFR and timing are pretty conservative. I'm familiar with LinkTools so I'll get the AFR dialed in, but before I put to much more into it I'm wondering if you guys would suggest some changes, maybe a leaner AFR or timing changes?

Hopefully it isn't too terrible, just got Link a month ago and I've been reading on here like crazy trying to get this thing tuned right.

 

[jed344]

Is this on pump gas or e85?. There is also no wide band log so i can only guess on the a/f but target 11.1 at wot is good for pump gas. I would start to advance timing some your pulling low timing. Usually target for 16-18* on pump gas for total timing on smaller turbos.

 

[Nate355RS]

Thanks for the reply It's on 93 octane and there should be a wideband on there. Don't have my laptop with me to check but I'm sure I logged it.

EDIT: Just checked and Wideband is definitely in there.

 

[WFO-TSi]

I checked your log out last night and didn’t reply. I honestly don’t even know where to start. You have some extreme lean spots according to your logged Wideband, and you’re stating that you’re A/F’s are conservative. You even ask if you should be running leaner…

Look at your logged VE. Considering what modifications you have it should smoothly climb till about 5500 rpm’s then smoothly taper off as the rpm’s continue to increase. Your logged VE is all over the road.

Save your engine and please take my advice. Load a new and unmolested SD table and start from scratch before you melt something.

Follow this guide and you’ll be good to go.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/395564-how-tune-1g-v3-sd-ecmlink-no-maf.html

 

[Nate355RS]

I checked your log out last night and didn’t reply. I honestly don’t even know where to start. You have some extreme lean spots according to your logged Wideband, and you’re stating that you’re A/F’s are conservative. You even ask if you should be running leaner…

Look at your logged VE. Considering what modifications you have it should smoothly climb till about 5500 rpm’s then smoothly taper off as the rpm’s continue to increase. Your logged VE is all over the road.

Save your engine and please take my advice. Load a new and unmolested SD table and start from scratch before you melt something.

Follow this guide and you’ll be good to go.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/395564-how-tune-1g-v3-sd-ecmlink-no-maf.html

Ouch... that was pretty harsh. This is my first WOT pull so I didn't really know where the fueling was going to be. Made some 70-80% pulls but nothing in the higher MAP range. Hence my tune of basically stock boost, low timing, and CONSERVATIVE commanded AFR of 10.0

The VE table needs some work, especially between 4000-5000rpm but trashing the whole table wouldn't be very constructive IMO.

 

[WFO-TSi]

I found a log you posted for your idle which looks like you have idle definitely dialed in.

Use the guide I sent you. If you haven’t read it already all you need to do is start on page 14 and work till the end. Using the stuff laid out in the guide will get you from zero to hero in a day…winter weather permitting.

Check out the default SD table supplied in the link below:

sd101 [ECMTuning - wiki]

The goal is to make yours transition smoothly just like that.

Having a logged WBFactor of 32% while boosting 15.6 psi, or another spot that’s logging a WBFactor of 51.6% means you need to put some work in before thinking about turning up the wick.

Once your logged wideband values match your logged AFRatioEst values then adjust you’re A/F’s leaner.

 

[Nate355RS]

I like that guide, I had read it awhile ago but it was good to read it again. I started with the 1g VE table and made adjustments using LinkTools and ECMLink's SDVE Adjust to tune part throttle. My cruise is spot on so I wouldn't really want to start from scratch. The wideband follows AFRatioEst like clockwork. Although I'm seeing some cells I didn't hit while datalogging that need some smoothing.

One part that I'm confused about is when to use the global adjustments. I just adjusted the VE table and didn't change global fueling at all. From the log do you think global adjustments should be made or should I continue to make VE changes?

 

[jed344]

Also just looking at it again why is your Min octane timing table targeting higher timing then your max octane?

 

[WFO-TSi]

If your wideband followed your AFRatioEst like “clockwork” then your WBFactor would be 0%. I even pointed out the spots where you’re your wideband and AFRatioEst were not even close to matching. Focus on those areas as a starting point.

You’ve stated twice that you don’t want to start from scratch. Messing with your Global will throw off everything you’ve done so far and have you…starting from scratch.

 

[Nate355RS]

Which it is, at cruise.

My cruise is spot on so I wouldn't really want to start from scratch. The wideband follows AFRatioEst like clockwork.

If you read what I posted again, my cruise is spot on. I'm well aware WOT needs work. The PDF you posted mentioned using global adjustments, I just don't see why it would be necessary when I can make changes in the VE table.

Also just looking at it again why is your Min octane timing table targeting higher timing then your max octane?

Good catch, I haven't really looked at that table. Most of what I've read says to leave it alone, haven't seen anything yet about what it should be. I guess I can copy over my TmngMaxOct to the TmngMinOct and then subtract a couple degrees?

 

[snowborder714]

Running the log through LinkTools will take care of the crazy WBFactor values seen. This is just because he hasn't dialed in the SD table for WOT pulls. Get to work on the airflow first - don't worry about timing or fuel. Everything else is useless while airflow is off. Make sure to make the SD table smooth with no big jumps between cells. This will take some time.

Global will be adjusted once you get your SD table more solid. If you're regularly seeing VE values of over 100%, then your global is off and should be adjusted. Currently, you're showing almost 110% VE which could indicate that an adjustment may be in your future. Thankfully LinkTools does the scaling of the SD table for you based on your current and new global value.

You should adjust your knock sensor controls to help prevent any phantom knock from appearing. I usually recommend 2500 RPM and at least 25-30% TPS.

When using LinkTools, you'll want to rename your MAP to "MAP" and your wideband to "Wideband" so that the program easily reads these values.

 

[Nate355RS]

Thanks snowboarder, your write ups and posts have been a big help in understanding how to tune. You've also helped me out in some other threads so thanks

I'm not sure if you guys have heard of HPTuners but it's big in the GM world. I use it to tune my Trans Am and it has a surface plot that looks similar to Calan's tools, except it's interactive. So I can zoom in and rotate the plot to see any high or low points. You can also adjust values by clicking and dragging on points to visually smooth the graph.

When I get off work I can import my VE table into HPTuners and use it's tool to visually smooth out the graph. Should be a lot easier than studying the numbers.

 

[snowborder714]

Sounds similar to TunerPro which I've used in the past to play with maps in 3D. Lately I've just been doing it in Excel as it's a bit quicker (don't have to worry about export/import when it's already in LinkTools). You can use LinkTools to view a 3D surface chart if you'd like.

 

[Nate355RS]

Went back and smoothed the table and applied some corrections based on the first log. I also went in and modified the knock settings as snowboarder suggested.

This tune looks like it's closer to being right, but now I'm getting knock retard at the top of the RPM range for some reason

 

[WFO-TSi]

Nice!

Keep doing what you’re doing and don’t be surprised if the knock goes away when you start leaning out your target A/F tables.

 

[Nate355RS]

Thanks! I've made some adjustments and another WOT run and the airflow looks even better now. Once everything is ironed out at this boost level, what do you think the next step should be?

I thinking about two paths but not sure which one I should do first.

1. Adjust commanded AFR and timing so maximize power at this level of boost, then up the boost in small increments and adjust for any changes that need to be made.

2. Leave AFR and timing where it is and up the boost. When I reach my target boost of ~20-22psi and WOT log looks good, then worry about leaning the WOT AFR and increase timing.

I think #2 would be safer but not sure which would be best.

Also, is it normal to have high VE values in the center of the map? That range is usually when I crack the throttle open for a log, so I don't know if I'm adjusting for tip-in or if it's normal for those values to be higher.

 

[snowborder714]

I would recommend just getting your fuel table locked in to what you want to see. As long as it's safe (e.g. not targeting 12.5:1 on 91 octane), it'll be fine at any boost level. Then just set your boost to what you want to run in the end. Do a WOT pull and see if you get any knock. If so, drop timing in that area. Adjust airflow, verify you're getting your target AFR, then work in putting timing back in slowly.

You'll see high VE values around the 5500-6000 RPM range and the highest load your car sees. It's normal to see 100%, but if you see something really high (over 105%, for example), then you'd need to adjust your global value and rescale the SD table.

 

[Nate355RS]

Do you think the knock I saw in the last log I posted be because of too little timing or too rich an AFR as WFO-TSi suggested?

 

[snowborder714]

"Too little timing" would prevent knock

If you have too high of timing, that can cause knock and in turn, pull timing. Knock pulls timing no matter how it is caused.

Your wideband was reading 10:2, so I would not say it's rich knock. It's most likely from too high of timing, so just drop it in that area and see if it goes away. Either way, the small amount of knock you saw isn't anything to be terribly worried about. If it was 3* or over, then I'd be concerned.

Note - I tune my own car to see an ideal of no knock, but if I see .4 or .7 (less than 1*) it doesn't bother me.

 

[WFO-TSi]

Also, is it normal to have high VE values in the center of the map? That range is usually when I crack the throttle open for a log, so I don't know if I'm adjusting for tip-in or if it's normal for those values to be higher.

If wherever you are doing you pulls has room for it, try going WOT closer to 2000rpm’s. That will help you figure out if the changes you need to make to your tune are on the SD table or the BaseTipInTPSAdj table.

Once you get your target A/F and wideband lined up through an entire pull experimenting will be the only definitive way to find out where the knock is coming from. You are right though about low timing. I’ve seen knock from excessively high or low timing in addition to excessively rich vs. lean A/F ratios.

My opinion would be that it was due to a combination of things and A/F’s being the one you can actually control. At the point you saw knock your intake temps were 46 degrees. Consequently you had also just spent 3.5 seconds at an A/F of ~10:1. That much fuel has a tendency to cool off the combustion chambers even further. Id be willing to bet that even with a modest change to 10.5:1 you would see a reduction in knock. But all in due time.

 

[bjjnerd85]

What about tuning WOT pulls with maf? Am I still looking for the same general things as sd? Thus will be my first time tuning with link as well.