Slowest part

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

I've heard people say a car is only as fast as its slowest part. e.g. Very well, strong built 4G63T but with ONLY a 2 inch exhaust. The exhaust would certainly be the problem in that scenario. Now, as to my car, I have an FP Green which can push 57lb/min. I have a stock Throttle body, stock Intake Manifold, mildly ported 1G head, cast FP exhaust manifold and a Megan 3" with no catalytic converter, just a test pipe. I look at this and think cams are the best bang for a buck, or is it an aftermarket intake manifold, etc. I don't know. Do you?

 

[Mech Addict]

Great perspective! Which water injection system did you use? I was wondering if pairing water injection with higher compression pistons would be a good way to add better low- to mid- range. Cranking boost makes power, sure, but it takes time to build. Higher compression works similar to more displacement, but doesn’t alter the rod ratio like a stroker.
Of course messing with the block internals is not as easy as swapping cams, not really a next slowest part answer.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I run 10:1s in the stick 90 and 9:1s in the auto car. Since I can only get 91 at the pump, the lower compression is more forgiving on timing but max is about 5* to be honest. It sucks. I do believe it helps with low and mid power over 7.8:1, like my White 90, but I can run more timing and boost without knock in the lower compression car.
This is the kit and juice I use. I give it a 6-7 out of 10 for effectiveness. It does include a boost reference and a dash mountable controller which is pretty cool.

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[WisconsinMonSTAR]

I would say the stock cams are the "slow" part of your setup. Not that the stockers can't be pushed to perform, but given that you have all of the basics covered, a cam upgrade would probably yield the most power to dollar ratio gain out of any one single mod you can do to the car.

Going from stock cams to FP2 intake and exhaust cams, I did not notice any losses anywhere, only gains everywhere. Our setups are far from identical, but this is just my experience. I did hours of research on the FP2 cams before I decided to get them, and every testimony I could find on them stated similar results. No losses in low end power or off boost responsiveness, but very noticeable mid range and top end power gains.

They are the only other cams I have had besides stock, so I dont have anything else to personally compare to, but from what I've researched, they are more of a moderate cam compared to the other 272s out there that they are classed with.

I have similar goals for my car as far as having low 11s and great street performance in mind. My car is my daily and I've been real happy with the v1 68hta setup I've been running. I know for a fact that the cams benefitted my setup, so I have no doubt that they would provide gains on your green with little to no sacrifice in street performance.

 

[Mech Addict]

There you go. Some informed advice. Do the cams this time, water for your next upgrade.

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

I run 10:1s in the stick 90 and 9:1s in the auto car. Since I can only get 91 at the pump, the lower compression is more forgiving on timing but max is about 5* to be honest. It sucks. I do believe it helps with low and mid power over 7.8:1, like my White 90, but I can run more timing and boost without knock in the lower compression car.
This is the kit and juice I use. I give it a 6-7 out of 10 for effectiveness. It does include a boost reference and a dash mountable controller which is pretty cool.

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That is a cool kit. I'm definitely going to research this more! You guys are awesome. I appreciate the help.

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

I would say the stock cams are the "slow" part of your setup. Not that the stockers can't be pushed to perform, but given that you have all of the basics covered, a cam upgrade would probably yield the most power to dollar ratio gain out of any one single mod you can do to the car.

Going from stock cams to FP2 intake and exhaust cams, I did not notice any losses anywhere, only gains everywhere. Our setups are far from identical, but this is just my experience. I did hours of research on the FP2 cams before I decided to get them, and every testimony I could find on them stated similar results. No losses in low end power or off boost responsiveness, but very noticeable mid range and top end power gains.

They are the only other cams I have had besides stock, so I dont have anything else to personally compare to, but from what I've researched, they are more of a moderate cam compared to the other 272s out there that they are classed with.

I have similar goals for my car as far as having low 11s and great street performance in mind. My car is my daily and I've been real happy with the v1 68hta setup I've been running. I know for a fact that the cams benefitted my setup, so I have no doubt that they would provide gains on your green with little to no sacrifice in street performance.

This is what I thought. With this, and water/meth injection I've got homework to do. As always, I appreciate the help guys.

 

[DSMPT]

My perfect goal, if it is possible, would be to increase torque down in the lower rpms when the Green hasn't started building boost yet. But I don't want the Green to perform any less than it does now on the top rpms.
There is my current setup:
Low torque and horsepower until about 3500 rpms when boost starts to build. By 4000 rpms the Green is on its way to 24-26psi which it hits at 4500 and holds until 7000 rpms.
My preferred setup would be all the same but with more torque and hp or either of the two between takeoff and 3500 rpms.
I never go over 7000 rpms. I'm a chicken.

My thoughts and experience.
If what you want is off-boost low/mid range torque and don't care much about top end power, if I were you I would stay with the stock cams or maybe max with something HKS, BC 258-264 range the cams that don't have much overlap and I would make the power band lower by adjustable cam gears. And would keep the intake/exhaust parts as small as possible. This wouldn't give you a torque gain, just to get back lost torque by going with larger intake/exhaust parts.
I used to have a HKS 264 only on intake side w/ stock exhaust cam. I liked a lot that combo for daily in the city. That gave me a noticeable gain at low to mid range.
Since generally good low end torque and top end power don't live together, you have to compromise something. It's like my 2g, my main purpose on it is to get off-boost low/mid range torque. I stay with a 16g, stock cams/intake manifold/exhaust on 10.5 compression ratio w/ 100mm stroker. This makes the top end limited but increase low/mid end torque and fun to drive in the city.

P.S. A JDM GVR4 cyclone intake manifold w/ the actuator activated would be beneficial to get what you want, too.

 

[We're on Boost]

24psi at 4,500 rpm seems like pretty slow boost for a mid-size turbo.
Are you still using a manual boost controller?
Maybe you should try controlling boost with ECMLink and an Ingersoll Rand boost control solenoid, like ECM tuning recommends.
Set the duty cycle way high and let er rip.
You've already got the external wastegate, Tial, perfect.
Car I can think of that you could look at is GST with PSI - his GVR4 #1837.
Check this out, boost 29.7 at 4037 rpm.
His turbo is similar size to yours but uses a GT30 turbine wheel. The Green, last I knew, was using an FP manufactured turbine wheel that is designed like a near copy of an MHI wheel, but that might not be quite true anymore. Anyway the turbo is similar size but different in a lot of other ways.
His cams, mild upgrade from stock, like you are thinking. FP2's as someone suggested would probably be similar or better but I don't know if they are still made. I wouldn't do any regrind of a cam. Reduces the base circle.
The best cams for low to mid range rpm are like this: They have a little more lift than stock and slightly higher valve accelerations than stock (opens the valve quicker). But the duration and overlap are not much different from stock - only slightly more if any.

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[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

My thoughts and experience.
If what you want is off-boost low/mid range torque and don't care much about top end power, if I were you I would stay with the stock cams or maybe max with something HKS, BC 258-264 range the cams that don't have much overlap and I would make the power band lower by adjustable cam gears. And would keep the intake/exhaust parts as small as possible. This wouldn't give you a torque gain, just to get back lost torque by going with larger intake/exhaust parts.
I used to have a HKS 264 only on intake side w/ stock exhaust cam. I liked a lot that combo for daily in the city. That gave me a noticeable gain at low to mid range.
Since generally good low end torque and top end power don't live together, you have to compromise something. It's like my 2g, my main purpose on it is to get off-boost low/mid range torque. I stay with a 16g, stock cams/intake manifold/exhaust on 10.5 compression ratio w/ 100mm stroker. This makes the top end limited but increase low/mid end torque and fun to drive in the city.

P.S. A JDM GVR4 cyclone intake manifold w/ the actuator activated would be beneficial to get what you want, too.

What you liked with the intake only HKS 264 is exactly what I am interested in. I know that to benefit low end it often compromises too end. But, I shift at 7000rpms always. The HKS 264 was made for increasing power from ~<2000 to ~6800rpms. That's exactly where I'm looking for power.

I have been researching this and taking all you guys great advice. I do want to include something made by member bleakley.

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[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

24psi at 4,500 rpm seems like pretty slow boost for a mid-size turbo.
Are you still using a manual boost controller?
Maybe you should try controlling boost with ECMLink and an Ingersoll Rand boost control solenoid, like ECM tuning recommends.
Set the duty cycle way high and let er rip.
You've already got the external wastegate, Tial, perfect.
Car I can think of that you could look at is GST with PSI - his GVR4 #1837.
Check this out, boost 29.7 at 4037 rpm.
His turbo is similar size to yours but uses a GT30 turbine wheel. The Green, last I knew, was using an FP manufactured turbine wheel that is designed like a near copy of an MHI wheel, but that might not be quite true anymore. Anyway the turbo is similar size but different in a lot of other ways.
His cams, mild upgrade from stock, like you are thinking. FP2's as someone suggested would probably be similar or better but I don't know if they are still made. I wouldn't do any regrind of a cam. Reduces the base circle.
The best cams for low to mid range rpm are like this: They have a little more lift than stock and slightly higher valve accelerations than stock (opens the valve quicker). But the duration and overlap are not much different from stock - only slightly more if any.

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I apologize for not being clearer. Regarding 24psi at 4,500 rpm seems like pretty slow boost for a mid-size turbo, I should've said, by 4000 rpms the Green is on its way to 24-26psi which it hits [30 psi] at 4500 and holds [30 psi] until 7000 rpms. Still, does this seem normal or abnormal? I am still using a manual boost controller. I'd need to look into controlling boost with ECMLink and an Ingersoll Rand boost control solenoid. I won't do a regrind of the cam. You're advice regarding the reduction of the base circle is agreed upon by many.

 

[pauleyman]

Why do you shift at 7k? I have bounced over 7500 more times than i can count.

 

[DSMPT]

What you liked with the intake only HKS 264 is exactly what I am interested in. I know that to benefit low end it often compromises too end. But, I shift at 7000rpms always. The HKS 264 was made for increasing power from ~<2000 to ~6800rpms. That's exactly where I'm looking for power.

I have been researching this and taking all you guys great advice. I do want to include something made by member bleakley.

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The Kelford TX258's intake cam is really similar to the HKS 264 intake cam. The Kelford TX258's spec is basically like the famous old school HKS 264/272 combo, maybe have a tiny bit more lift. I liked the HKS 264 intake/stock exhaust combo, because I could obviously feel some off-boost torque gain even in1st gear. But of course in total performance, 264/264 was way better especially at mid/top range. That was a kind of dilemma between the HKS 264/stock and 264/264.

 

[We're on Boost]

I should've said, by 4000 rpms the Green is on its way to 24-26psi which it hits [30 psi] at 4500 and holds [30 psi] until 7000 rpms. Still, does this seem normal or abnormal?

Aha, if you mean that you get 24-26psi at 4,000 and 30psi at 4,500 - that's pretty good for a mid-size turbo in general I think. So what you have left on the table there to gain is not as much as I thought. But probably some.
The other thing I wondered about with those numbers is what fuel you are on to get them. E85? Or 91 octane gas? Brett's car that I posted the log shot of is on E85.
Having a lot of ethanol in the fuel is awesome if the tune takes advantage of it properly. It doesn't even have to be the full ~82% or whatever of E85.
English Racing told me that on the flex fuel tunes they do (which they do a lot of) they are often able to go "all-in" with the boost on only ~60% ethanol. Although higher ethanol % is safer.
Flex fuel is a great thing. Maybe in cold winter you don't even want a lot of ethanol in your tank, especially if your car might be sitting around for a long time. Oh why would that ever happen?

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

Why do you shift at 7k? I have bounced over 7500 more times than i can count.

I thought it would be safer being that my springs are bone stock. I haven't invested in upgraded springs, beehive, etc.

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

Aha, if you mean that you get 24-26psi at 4,000 and 30psi at 4,500 - that's pretty good for a mid-size turbo in general I think. So what you have left on the table there to gain is not as much as I thought. But probably some.
The other thing I wondered about with those numbers is what fuel you are on to get them. E85? Or 91 octane gas? Brett's car that I posted the log shot of is on E85.
Having a lot of ethanol in the fuel is awesome if the tune takes advantage of it properly. It doesn't even have to be the full ~82% or whatever of E85.
English Racing told me that on the flex fuel tunes they do (which they do a lot of) they are often able to go "all-in" with the boost on only ~60% ethanol. Although higher ethanol % is safer.
Flex fuel is a great thing. Maybe in cold winter you don't even want a lot of ethanol in your tank, especially if your car might be sitting around for a long time. Oh why would that ever happen?

@We're on Boost, I am either in Fountain, CO at 5634' above sea level running E85 or 91 octane with various ECMLink v3 settings for each or I am where I am now, Louisiana at 3 feet above sea level with E85 or 93 octane. I go back and forth. I even have Link settings for mixed E85 and gasoline at say, 50/50. In either sea level condition I am able to run more timing with no knock. If she's sitting up I'd add a stabilizer I guess. Good thing it's never been setting too long without running. Hand to face.

It sure happened when my crank sprocket back out. And I lost the race! I was pulling on that beast.

 

[We're on Boost]

Oh you run pretty much the whole gamut of weather then. Wow.
Do you drive your DSM back and forth between those 2 places or do you haul it on a trailer?

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

Oh you run pretty much the whole gamut of weather then. Wow.
Do you drive your DSM back and forth between those 2 places or do you haul it on a trailer?

@We're on Boost, I have done both. I haul it by trailer behind my 4runner or drive it depending on several different circumstances.

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

Why do you shift at 7k? I have bounced over 7500 more times than i can count.

@pauleyman, am I being over cautious? I was in Colorado full time and there you can easily find Galants, Eclipses, Talons etc. all over the place in yards whether pull-a-part, u-pull-it, etc. All of that and not to mention many of our cars popping up on CL constantly in CO. Arid climate. Now, I am in Louisiana more, where it's a paint-fading, rubber-cracking, rust-devouring haven with most days at +90% hummidity. Even now after a cold front swept through, we are at "super low" humidity of ~70%. That said, finding one of our cars here is very, very difficult. When I threw my timing belt and needed a new head in CO. It took me no time to get up and running. Here, I would not have been able to fix it speedily.

What rpm do you consider safe for a completely stock 1g head?

 

[pauleyman]

@pauleyman, am I being over cautious? I was in Colorado full time and there you can easily find Galants, Eclipses, Talons etc. allover the place in yards whether pull-a-part, u-pull-it, etc. All of that and not to mention many of our cars popping up on CL constantly in CO. Arid climate. Now, I am in Louisiana more, where it's a paint-fading, rubber-cracking, rust-devouring haven with most days at 90%+ hummidity. Even now after a cold front swept through, we are at "super low" humidity of ~70%. That said, finding one of our cars here is very, very difficult. When I threw my timing belt and needed a new head in CO. It took me no time to get up and running. Here, I would not have been able to fix it speedily.

What rpm do you consider safe for a completely stock 1g head?

Ive covered at least 400k miles on stock valvetrain with several dams over the last 30 years. I bounce off 7500 frequently and have for decades. I change timing belts at no more than 60k. 40k on a modified car. My personal preference.

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

Here is what I am seeing offered now. Please, if you have time to spare, let me know which you'd choose with my setup and why. What yall have taught me is changing the cam changes the power band. Since I am looking for more torgue at low RPM and with some added benefit up to 6500-6800, I may be taking away from top end. My other consideration for wanting beginner stage cams is that I am maintaining stock springs.

All help is greatly appreciated!

Used Comp Cams 101-201-8 Camshafts IN EX for Mitsubishi 4G63 2.0L DOHC 259
$285.00

New Brian Crower Stage 2 268/272 Cams 4G63 4G63T Eclipse DSM 1g 2g Evo 1 2 3 BC0101
Duration @ 1.27mm: 208/212
Cam Duration: 268/272
Cam Lift: 10.18/9.66
$400.00

New Jasma (Pair) Camshaft Information: Duration Camshaft: IN 272 / EX 272 Lift Camshaft: IN 10.18 mm / EX 9.66 mm
$330.00

Used Web Cam street cams from member jersygsx. Not a regrind. See attached picture for specs.
$200.00.plus shipping.

Used by member iugrad92turbo HKS 272 cams. He upgraded to. Kelford 272s.
$365.00 shipped.

 

[Mech Addict]

Running a used cam poses some level of obvious higher risk, though the lobes are only contacted by roller rockers, and the bearings are typically well oiled. Plus mild to moderate cams don’t see high spring loads pressing their journals against the caps the way high lift cams would. With a mic and a dial gauge you can verify all the specs w/o too much effort. It’s not absolutely certain a brand new cam would be perfect, of course, but more likely on the whole. Many folks also seem to add adjustable sprockets too allow some further refinement of their cam timing/ powerband. The more variables you get to play with, the more you can make it “right”, but more chance to also get it “wrong”. None of those prices seem prohibitive in my mind, though you should replace gaskets , seals, o-rings where ever they are disturbed in the process (unless they were recently changed).

 

[twicks69]

Well, based on your budget by the price points above, I would the Brian Crower S2 or HKS 272 cams.
Seriously though, you should have valve springs and retainers installed. You can run both of these cams on stock valvetrain but you have to remember, you are running potentially 30 year old valvetrain components, all of which age. Valve springs will degrade over heat cycles and being pushed to the limits and will relax in spring rate. When installing new valve springs, you "can" just pop them in, but being that I typically push parts to their limits, I have always had every spring measured for spring rate and then shimmed to the proper desired static rate per install height measurements.

Here is some useful information on valve springs from our member Dale Morss, @BogusSVO. I tried finding this info on Tuners, but it was faster to just add the link below.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/638274-4g63-valve-spring-info.html

As well, Kiggly Beehive springs are top of the line, and you would only need the street steel springs for your application. https://www.kigglyracing.com/product-page/steel-street-beehive-valvesprings

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Dale always had helpful info, glad you could dig it up Tim!
Thanks!

 

[Vegas Smith]

The natural progression, to me, is upgrading your injectors, putting in a flex-fuel sensor and going to e-85.