Slowest part

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

I've heard people say a car is only as fast as its slowest part. e.g. Very well, strong built 4G63T but with ONLY a 2 inch exhaust. The exhaust would certainly be the problem in that scenario. Now, as to my car, I have an FP Green which can push 57lb/min. I have a stock Throttle body, stock Intake Manifold, mildly ported 1G head, cast FP exhaust manifold and a Megan 3" with no catalytic converter, just a test pipe. I look at this and think cams are the best bang for a buck, or is it an aftermarket intake manifold, etc. I don't know. Do you?

 

[AWD-Tony]

I say cams. I had a green on my 2g also on stock cams. Cams would have been the next mod had I kept it. You’ll notice a big difference up top.

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

Thank you TK's9d2TSi for a quick response. I was thinking cams too.

 

[twicks69]

Do you already have a tuning setup, fuel pump, injectors, intercooler, IC pipes >2.25", wideband and proper tune?

While cams are a great upgrade, people overlook basic things. Exhaust and cams are both on the required mods.

The stock 1g throttle body is not a limitation whatsoever, nor are 2.5" IC pipes or even a full 2.5"-3" turbo back exhaust.

What are your goals for the car??
A basic 264/272 cam is what I would go with for best average powerband for a street car. If you are drag racing and only want max peak power and sacrificing midrange then a basic 272 cam with valve springs.

 

[Mech Addict]

Won’t the answer depend a bit on your uses? Like the previous comment, cams can shift your powerband to have a greater peak at high revs, sure. But if you were racing on tight courses, that might not help much. You might want more midrange torque. What part seems “slow” right now when you desire more acceleration? The slowest part might be traction, or if your doing laps, the brakes could be keeping prevent quicker times. If it the addictive sensation of raw power at WOT, then cams could certainly be the next Best part to upgrade, and not very expensive or complicated, depending on just how much lift you go with.

 

[XC92]

Sorry for the newbie tuning question, but are you referring to replacing the actual camshafts, and if so intake, exhaust or both? Or something else? WAY beyond anything I'm thinking or capable of doing at this point, but I'm curious and it's for future reference. Once I'm done getting my Talon back in good shape, who knows what might come next.

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

Do you already have a tuning setup, fuel pump, injectors, intercooler, IC pipes >2.25", wideband and proper tune?

While cams are a great upgrade, people overlook basic things. Exhaust and cams are both on the required mods.

The stock 1g throttle body is not a limitation whatsoever, nor are 2.5" IC pipes or even a full 2.5"-3" turbo back exhaust.

What are your goals for the car??
A basic 264/272 cam is what I would go with for best average powerband for a street car. If you are drag racing and only want max peak power and sacrificing midrange then a basic 272 cam with valve springs.

Twicks69, I do have a tuning setup, done professionally. ECMLink V3 tuned by Mac AutoSport, running Speed Density setup for 91 Octane. Thereafter I've added some different tunes myself so that I can run 91 octane or E85 whenever I like. Fuel pump is 255, injectors 1250cc, large intercooler and hard pipes. I use an AEM Wideband also. I think that throwing parts on any car without a good tune is sad. You won't reap the full potential of the added parts.

Mech Adict and twicks 69, I agree. My goal is to feel a bit more power at low and mid range rpms. As is, I don't really need more top end, as my car scares the crap out of me when boost kicks in. I am addicted to the WOT feeling.

Sorry for the newbie tuning question, but are you referring to replacing the actual camshafts, and if so intake, exhaust or both? Or something else? WAY beyond anything I'm thinking or capable of doing at this point, but I'm curious and it's for future reference. Once I'm done getting my Talon back in good shape, who knows what might come next.

I am referring to replacing the actual camshafts, intake and exhaust. I've also wondered if my stock ones could be machined to get me where I want to be. I say that only because I had a Lunati cam reground for my 69 Mustang for more duration and higher lift. But that's been so long ago, it may have been only because I had new aftermarket lifters. Logic would suggest grinding anything means you are taking away.

I appreciate each of you for your advice!

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

My son went 11.5 on stock cams, big injectors, HX35 and a Morrison Fab twin scroll manifold (and a tune of course).

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

My son went 11.5 on stock cams, big injectors, HX35 and a Morrison Fab twin scroll manifold (and a tune of course).

Thank you 1990TSIAWDTALON. I've read of both a FP Green and Holset 35 running a 10.7 quarter mile. Like your son, I run large injectors. I don't need to run 10.7 to be happy. I couldn't afford the drivetrain upkeep. I'd be very happy with 11.5 like your son. He and I have very different exhaust manifolds though. I am wondering if my exhaust manifold is my "slowest part".

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

He does claim that the twin scroll manifold (which is a pretty penny) was a big help, on the spool up for sure. Top end wise, my HX40 will pull on him but he comes out of the hole really well (or DID, melted #3 piston down to below the 1st ring last time out on my shortblock........too much timing)

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

He does claim that the twin scroll manifold (which is a pretty penny) was a big help, on the spool up for sure. Top end wise, my HX40 will pull on him but he comes out of the hole really well (or DID, melted #3 piston down to below the 1st ring last time out on my shortblock........too much timing)

I liked (via the liked button) your information, but not your situation. Been at hard times too. Racing a Dodge Challenger Hellcat at the track and pulling away from him hard until the crank sprocket bolt backed out (happened to another member here), the sprocket moved out, the balance shaft belt broke and the timing belt grinded, shredded teeth and then flew off with 16 valves playing a symphony as they crashed into the pistons. Took a while but got a reconditioned head and she's back running. Anyway, price wise, what would give me more power at low and mid rpms - cams or a twin scroll manifold (got to see if that is even possible with my FP Green).

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Well Kyle, I have cams in my White 90 GSX and just the 14b on it. I think with more turbo the car would feel alot better but I have 2 HX40 cars so its hard to compair. The TS manifold just helps get the bigger unit spinning earlier. Cams will help in the range they are meant to pull in.
Funny that I had the same thing happen to my profile car (the Red 90 Talon) and it instantly bent all 16 too. I am JUST now getting it back together 2 years later. I am fortunate that I have more than one toy to play with. The goal being to have all 3 1990s running at the same time, one Red, one White and one Blue. The Blue 90 hasn't been shown yet but is in "build" mode, hopefully to be on the road this spring.
Marty

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

PM sent

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

First "glimpse" of the 90 GSX!
I have a 90 Laser RS also

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[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

Well Kyle, I have cams in my White 90 GSX and just the 14b on it. I think with more turbo the car would feel alot better but I have 2 HX40 cars so its hard to compair. The TS manifold just helps get the bigger unit spinning earlier. Cams will help in the range they are meant to pull in.
Funny that I had the same thing happen to my profile car (the Red 90 Talon) and it instantly bent all 16 too. I am JUST now getting it back together 2 years later. I am fortunate that I have more than one toy to play with. The goal being to have all 3 1990s running at the same time, one Red, one White and one Blue. The Blue 90 hasn't been shown yet but is in "build" mode, hopefully to be on the road this spring.
Marty

Marty, I am jealous! Three 90s! Seriously! Well, did adding cams to the 14B change things? What did you notice? Was the cam made for power in low/mid rpm range? Do have cams for the HX40s? I knew someone had the 16 valve symphony. What's amazing about our 1g staut (sp?) rods, pistons, etc. I had everything professionally checked and all that I had to do was grind sharp edges away on the piston tops. I just knew I'd have a bent rod.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I actually have 4 1990 cars and 2 parts cars plus my 92.
Our motors take a hell of alot of stuff and just keep going.
The White GSX I noticed the rpm band move up from stock. She will rev 7500 easy. Just did last night.
The other 2 HX cars run to 9200 and are tire shreaders. One is the Red 90 the other is my Blue 92 auto car. Both run reeeaaallly good. Both have Kelford cams and all the goodies, I built them. My Laser RS needs a head, which I have, and she will run again.
Here are my kissed pistons....not bad. Rings float just fine.

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[1990TSIAWDTALON]

And you know these guys then...

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[1990TSIAWDTALON]

To your original question, the cams will bring the rpms up and change torque curve but with the sons car it was just the HX35, manifold, injectors and a tune. So I guess I'm saying more huffer over bigger cams.
The cams in the 14b car are HKS 264/268.
Not as big as the Holset cars.

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

My perfect goal, if it is possible, would be to increase torque down in the lower rpms when the Green hasn't started building boost yet. But I don't want the Green to perform any less than it does now on the top rpms.
There is my current setup:
Low torque and horsepower until about 3500 rpms when boost starts to build. By 4000 rpms the Green is on its way to 24-26psi which it hits at 4500 and holds until 7000 rpms.
My preferred setup would be all the same but with more torque and hp or either of the two between takeoff and 3500 rpms.
I never go over 7000 rpms. I'm a chicken.

 

[Mech Addict]

Sorry for the newbie tuning question, but are you referring to replacing the actual camshafts, and if so intake, exhaust or both? Or something else? WAY beyond anything I'm thinking or capable of doing at this point, but I'm curious and it's for future reference. Once I'm done getting my Talon back in good shape, who knows what might come next.

Weren’t you interested in rebuilding your own transmission in another post? I’ve not swapped out my cams or rebuilt my trans, but would tackle the former over a weekend if I had a reason, such as ticking lash adjusters. Sprockets, CAS, cover, caps. What else, really? The brilliant design of the 4g63 head is that the whole rest of the valve train is below the cam. No rockers or shafts to unfasten. All the other work you’ve posted about, I’m sure you could do it.

As far as the original question, sure, I’d have to think a moderate cam upgrade will run a little stronger than the OEM, which is intended to idle quietly and have good milage and emissions. With the other mods, it could only help. What about water injection? Pretty simple, allows more boost or favorable timing, or other tuning that would otherwise lead to knock; only the water keeps it from knocking. More power throughout the powerband. At least that’s what’s advertised. Then there’s nitrous! Need more fuel, but POW when you romp it.

 

[90TSiAWD_FPGreen]

Weren’t you interested in rebuilding your own transmission in another post? I’ve not swapped out my cams or rebuilt my trans, but would tackle the former over a weekend if I had a reason, such as ticking lash adjusters. Sprockets, CAS, cover, caps. What else, really? The brilliant design of the 4g63 head is that the whole rest of the valve train is below the cam. No rockers or shafts to unfasten. All the other work you’ve posted about, I’m sure you could do it.

As far as the original question, sure, I’d have to think a moderate cam upgrade will run a little stronger than the OEM, which is intended to idle quietly and have good milage and emissions. With the other mods, it could only help. What about water injection? Pretty simple, allows more boost or favorable timing, or other tuning that would otherwise lead to knock; only the water keeps it from knocking. More power throughout the powerband. At least that’s what’s advertised. Then there’s nitrous! Need more fuel, but POW when you romp it.

I can build an engine, but would I take on the task of a transmission? Not after doing my homework. I will leave that to the Experts at Jack's Transmission in Colorado Springs, CO.

I'd certainly change my own cams. No problem there. Regarding the aftermarket cams, emissions increases, mileage reduction and rougher idle are no problem.

I need to research water injection. No to NOS because I had before and hate when the tank runs dry. I can't get refills local either. It's a 53 mile trip one way to get tank refills.

 

[Mech Addict]

Yes, nitrous has obvious issue of refills, no question. I’ve never considered it serious for that reason, too. And I already presumed you wouldn’t mind the small tradeoffs of a cam swap, and it didn’t sound like you would put something too radical in there, where the drawbacks get more noticeable (though I do like the sound of a V8 with a chug-a-chug idle, then Roar on take off).
I only raise the benefits of water or water/methanol injection as an outside observer. I’ve not done that myself. I’ve been focusing on just getting my poor old gsx back to the glory it had when new. But once I achieve that, water seems pretty simple to install, refills not an issue, allows some tuning with whatever you already have. I think of it like an octane boost, so anything else that would lead to knock (boost, timing mostly) can be done a bit more. Not unlike an upgrade to the IC.

 

[Mech Addict]

And reportedly keeps the combustion chambers shiny Clean! You might search the topic, and or new post.

 

[XC92]

Weren’t you interested in rebuilding your own transmission in another post? I’ve not swapped out my cams or rebuilt my trans, but would tackle the former over a weekend if I had a reason, such as ticking lash adjusters. Sprockets, CAS, cover, caps. What else, really? The brilliant design of the 4g63 head is that the whole rest of the valve train is below the cam. No rockers or shafts to unfasten. All the other work you’ve posted about, I’m sure you could do it.

As far as the original question, sure, I’d have to think a moderate cam upgrade will run a little stronger than the OEM, which is intended to idle quietly and have good milage and emissions. With the other mods, it could only help. What about water injection? Pretty simple, allows more boost or favorable timing, or other tuning that would otherwise lead to knock; only the water keeps it from knocking. More power throughout the powerband. At least that’s what’s advertised. Then there’s nitrous! Need more fuel, but POW when you romp it.

Yes, I was, and still hope to do it. I haven't really researched taking an engine apart as mine appears to be working well and I have no desire to upgrade it any time soon, but with all the parts in there moving thousands of times a minute at minute tolerances, it just seems pretty intimidating. Somehow fixing a trans doesn't seem as scary or complicated. Fewer parts, at the very least, and it's easier to remove a trans than an engine. I'm aware of the need for very tight precision and accuracy in rebuilding a trans, but I have most of the tools already, other than a press. Seems like it could be a satisfying undertaking, if I take it slow and am careful and methodical, and measure everything multiple times.

Anyway, back to engines, I didn't realize they could be modded in so many ways. For now I'll stick to being an observer and not attempt anything. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I say!

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I have water/meth installed on my Red 90, it sounds good on paper and worked "OK", but it never let me get very aggressive on timing so I went to E85.
In my area, both E85 AND NOS are 70 miles away, one way so.........I had to do something. Now I "stock" 3 EXTRA bottles (one is in the car) and around 75 gallons of E85. My cars are Flex Fuel so if I HAVE TO, I can put 91 in them but they prefer E.

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