running rich on 91 octane? knock?

[justin90gsx]

i finally got my 1g gsx going and im running my new hx35, trans, 880's, stg. 3 chip set to 880" and so on. my mods are in my profile.

so i have been watching my mmcd on my logger and all 3 fuel trims have been running about 83%.
so i have tried leaning the whole base line out and it helps a couple % and if i do it anymore the the car will die.
so it runs good and like a bat out of hell until the higher rpms 5k and up and i start to see 37-40 counts of knock, so i let off and try to adjust and no matter what i still run rich and see knock?
then i lowered my fuel pressure from 40psi to 37psi and it helped alittle.
but im stuck right now and im new at tuning and all i got is a aem wide-band, logger and a maft to tune with

any suggestions, advice would be greatly appreciated

 

[gofer]

You might not necessarily be running rich and you might not necessarily be seeing real knock. What do your AFR's and timing advance look like when you start seeing it knock? On 91 octane I was having to tune for a 10.5~10.8:1 AFR's on the WB to keep my car from knocking. How old is that knock sensor you have installed and was it torqued to specs when you installed it? I ask because it could be just phantom knock as well, the sensor might have vibrated loose or has gone bad.

 

[justin90gsx]

my afr's are around 10.5:1 at 100% trottle.
and it is a brand new mitsu oem knock sensor installed correctly last week (it did it with the old knock sensor too), i was a mitsu technician till they got canned at my dealer and now im a gm tech.

ok i just did drive and logged it and this 2nd gear pull was at 10.5:1 afr @ 24psi.

this was its 3rd drive cycle since i reset the ecu and the fuel trims are
FTRL 81.2%
FTRM 100%
FTRH 96.8%

rpm. knock. timing.
1031, 0, 12*
2093, 0, 38*
2900, 0, 36*
3750, 3, 23*
3812, 10, 18*
3968, 14, 14*
4125, 25, 6*
4343, 35, 5*
4531, 43, -2*
5000, 42, -5*
5625, 38, -3*
6468, 42, -1*
7281, 40, 1*
7625, 37, 2*

so obviously my timing is being pulled, but what is causing it?

ANYONE? could it be cause the knock sensor is picking up vibrations cause of the solid motor mounts?

 

[justin90gsx]

still haven't figured this out.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Aren't you going to need to be able to adjust timing with so much fuel and air being mashed into your engine? I only run a 16g @ 18psi, and I have to pull timing from the 1g map. Your timing shoots up to 23* BTDC and then has to pull it like crazy. Why do you have such a big turbo with no real tuning system? The stock map is going to shoot for around 26* or so of timing at redline. From everything I've learned about tuning forced induction engines, that's too much timing for the higher cylinder pressures that you're shooting for.

Does it knock with say 7psi? With a larger turbo that 7psi is going to be more air than 7psi on say a 14b.

 

[justin90gsx]

i turned the boost down to 17psi. runs good but still knock
but it seems like it does start to knock in lower boost.
well i have the stg. 3 chip set for all my stuff and the slip says advanced timing maps.

 

[gofer]

The 1g timing maps are EXTREMELY aggressive so being able to adjust your timing advance is going to help get rid of that knock. I'm not sure if Utah runs 91 oct but my AFR's on the stuff were 10.5-10.8:1 and my PEAK timing advance was 10* on just 21psi on stock cams.
If you have a way to adjust timing, the table below will get you close to a 2g's timing map which is less aggressive.

RPM : Adj
1000 : 0
1500 : 0
2000 : -3
2500 : -3
3000 : -4
3500 : -5
4000 : -11
4500 : -9
5000 : -8
5500 : -9
6000 : -9
6500 : -4
7000 : -3
7500 : -3
8000 : -3

Some DSM'rs over on the dsmlink forums are running a plastic washer on their knock sensor, supposedly it keeps it from picking up phantom knock? Just a suggestion as well.

 

[justin90gsx]

i want to get v3 link and run SD but im broke.
i spoke to a tuning guroo on utdsm.org and he said set my base timing to 0*, so i did and it helped alot! but still knock.
ill try that plastic washer on the knock sensor.

oh and i have this noise that i cant find, that my knock sensor may be picking up and its alot louder when the motor is cold and it goes with RPMs and you hear it at 3k and above, the noise was there with my old motor and it sounds like a bad pully or a bad small high pich vibration. i took a stethoscope and its coming from the intake manifold/ ac compressor area. so i took of my ac belt and still there i mean its loud you can hear it when your driving next to me.
does the stock intake mani crack?
i even changed my timing pulleys.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I have had that noise on all my 4g engines. I'm pretty sure it's the oil pump. It goes away when it warms up, and I've tried replacing all my timing belt pulleys too. The revised oil pump has helical cut gears for that very reason, but I've never tried updating that.

 

[toofast82]

1g timing map is far too agressive for 91oct and your setup.
If you're on a tight budget, you can get your ecu socketed($60), get a chip burner($30-100) and a few chips and you'll have full timing and fuel control and the ability to edit things like stutterbox, revlimit and so much more, even speed density.

 

[justin90gsx]

1g timing map is far too agressive for 91oct and your setup.
If you're on a tight budget, you can get your ecu socketed($60), get a chip burner($30-100) and a few chips and you'll have full timing and fuel control and the ability to edit things like stutterbox, revlimit and so much more, even speed density.

my ecu is socketed and i have a stage 3 keydiver chip for my mods, but my friend has a chip burner so where do i get the program to program the chip?

I have had that noise on all my 4g engines. I'm pretty sure it's the oil pump. It goes away when it warms up, and I've tried replacing all my timing belt pulleys too. The revised oil pump has helical cut gears for that very reason, but I've never tried updating that.

huh well i have a new oil pump with the mitsu stub shaft and yes it mostly goes away when its fully warmed up

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I've been listening to that god awful sound for at least 6 years, and it still bugs the crap out of me. Does your oil pump have the straight cut gears?

 

[justin90gsx]

i think so but cant remember? it did it on my old motor too! with a different oil pump but it never used to do it 2 years ago? WTF


but anyone know what that program is called ^^^ that you burn your own chips?

 

[toofast82]

my ecu is socketed and i have a stage 3 keydiver chip for my mods, but my friend has a chip burner so where do i get the program to program the chip?

Tunerpro can be downloaded at TunerPro and TunerPro RT - Professional Automobile Tuning Software
Sign up and become a member of the dsm-ecu yahoo group
Here's some basic code changes:
First Generation DSM EPROM Editing

 

[JayRolla]

You need to start all over on this tune.

First off with those injectors on a 1g you will need to pull base timing. I would pull timing back from 5* to around 0-1* at most. May be a little rougher idle but the car will not explode when you go WOT.

After timing is good start at around 15psi and set the maf-t base knob for your 880's. Start the car and let it idle. If wbo2 is around 14.7 then you are good. If not adjust the base accordingly till you get a good 14.7 at idle and cruise. Drive around and slowly adjust till you get good fuel trims and/or 14.7 at cruise. DO NOT GO WOT TILL FUEL TRIMS ARE INLINE.

Once cruise is good go WOT and do a log but make sure boost is no higher than 15psi. If you are rich (like 10.1) than you have done the base pretty good. Stock afr is around 9.5:1 but the wbo2 wont read any lower. If timing stays low and no knock you can pull some fuel untill your around 10.5-10.9 afr at WOT.

Once you have a good 10.9 afr at 15psi and no knock you can slowly add some boost. In my 1g on a 16g and pump gas I was not able to run more than 18psi without knock on my 2g pistons and crazy timing advance. Its real hard to make power without having full timing control on crappy pump gas.

 

[gofer]

Jason's correct with ALL of the above info. Your going to get more power by turning up the boost and staying conservative on your timing advance, just keep that in mind as well.

 

[justin90gsx]

so i downloaded that tuner pro and wow don't know what to do as i am new! help?
so how do i start over on my tune when my translator is zeroed out? burn a new chip? and do i have to buy a new chip or are they rewritable ### i have an extra one.

hey thanks for helping me out guys! i appreciate it!

 

[toofast82]

so i downloaded that tuner pro and wow don't know what to do as i am new! help?
so how do i start over on my tune when my translator is zeroed out? burn a new chip? and do i have to buy a new chip or are they rewritable ### i have an extra one.

hey thanks for helping me out guys! i appreciate it!

You need to download a stock .bin and .xdf file. The xdf is like the definition file and the bin is the actual hex that will be burned onto the chip. The ones on tunerpro will work fine or the ones on the yahoo forum.
Just set the chip up for the injectors you're running and set the translator to stock injector size.
You can then make fine fuel adjustments with the translator if you please or with the chip.
It depends on the chip itself if its rewritable.
You can pm me with any questions you have if you'd like

 

[justin90gsx]

it seems too much for me, i downloaded a file and well i dont wanna screw up my car.
ill have my buddy look at this stuff for me or just stick to my stg 3 chip and keep it at 12psi till i buy v3.
is there a section that explains how to do it for noobs cause i found nothing?