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[RESOLVED] PTE 5031RE BB shaft play? (with pics)

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dsmulla

15+ Year Contributor
200
1
Jun 27, 2007
Scarborough, Ontario_Canada
Ok guys, I was seemingly having boost problems this past summer as the turbo (PTE 5031RE BB) was not pushing past 10 psi. The problem started to occur gradually as every week through almost all of summer, the boost kept dropping.:notgood:

After a thousand boost leak tests, compression tests and you can name any test, I finally found something fishy:cool:. The compressor housing where the inlet is, had some minor shave marks, meaning shaft play. Now, the shaft play is still the same as when I bought the turbo intially and I know ball bearing turbos do consist of some play. Having said that, its the same amount of play.

Some information about the setup:
-SS oil feed was taken from the oil filter housing with an inline filter in between
-I do understand opinions have changed as many BB turbos should be fed from the head because of more flow but I just followed the thread in tech section referenced at the bottom
-the coolant lines were setup just the way explained in blcknspo0ln's thread (great job by the way):

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...dbb-pte-5031-50-trim-turbo.html#post151422145

The turbo had barely seen 1800 kms. Two questions: could this be the cause for my boost problems explained above? With the amount of shaft play that its suppose to have how can the compressor housing start to shave?

I have also attached some pictures, so you guys can take a look. You'll see in most of the compressor housing pictures the shave marks that I am talking about. Its pretty clear if you look closely.

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Thanks for the help in advance and all help is appreciated!!:thumb:

-Osman
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Maybe it's just the pictures but i don't see anything wrong.. The fins aren't chewed or nicked.. have you verified the gate is staying shut? Have you tried wiring it shut?
 
Sorry, thats one thing I forgot to mention. I have played around with the flapper gate and it is shut completely. Intially, thats what I thought it was but it turned out it wasn't that. I know the pictures might not be the best but it is shaved for sure. I can feel it the marks.

Kmoore, there is very minimal in and out.
 
That turbo is pouched, if the compressor wheel is rubbing on the housing (which is how it looks). Its BB so usually these aren't rebuildable (sp?)

Oiling wasn't your problem, providing you HAD oil.. I would have passed on the inline filter, BB turbo's like less oil pressure then journal bearing turbos. The water lines, alot of people done even run them on BB turbo's, so i doubt that had anything to do with it. You primed the turbo properly im assuming?

My only though is maybe your turbo took in some debris or a piece of something? But then the fins would normally have damage..

Sorry about your luck.
 
That turbo is pouched, if the compressor wheel is rubbing on the housing (which is how it looks). Its BB so usually these aren't rebuildable (sp?)

Oiling wasn't your problem, providing you HAD oil.. I would have passed on the inline filter, BB turbo's like less oil pressure then journal bearing turbos. The water lines, alot of people done even run them on BB turbo's, so i doubt that had anything to do with it. You primed the turbo properly im assuming?

My only though is maybe your turbo took in some debris or a piece of something? But then the fins would normally have damage..

Sorry about your luck.

Its weird because all this time I was thinking, that BB turbo's need more oil, hence why there is a little bit shaft play from factory because the more oil pressure will accomodate for the extra movement.

Yeah the turbo was primed properly. So you think it's done eh?
 
Its weird because all this time I was thinking, that BB turbo's need more oil, hence why there is a little bit shaft play from factory because the more oil pressure will accomodate for the extra movement.

Yeah the turbo was primed properly. So you think it's done eh?

BB CHRAs need very low oil pressures, but they need clean oil, which is why many people recommend inline filters.
 
No one can really say for sure without inspecting it themselves, but it really does sound like the turbo's going out.
 
The inlet of the turbo looks shaved but it comes from the factory like that. They machine it a bit for reasons beyond me. I doubt your wheel has made any contact with it. Note that the edge of the "shave" marks begin further out than your fins extend.

From how you described your setup, it sounds like the ball bearings are shot. It is normally recommended to run oil from the head. Filter housing is possible but a restrictor is a must. It seems like you missed that in your install. I think that high oil pressure directly from the oil filter housing has damaged your bearings.
 
Some information about the setup:
-SS oil feed was taken from the oil filter housing with an inline filter in between
-I do understand opinions have changed as many BB turbos should be fed from the head because of more flow
From the original post^

Your oil feed for a BB turbo should ALWAYS come from the head and not the oil filter housing. The head has a restrictor inside that limits oil pressure to 15 PSI. This is the oil pressure that is to be used for a BB turbo. If you grabbed the oil feed from the oil filter housing, you most likely saw 90+PSI .
 
80986d1204852350-pte-5031re-bb-shaft-play-pics-turbo3.jpg


In this pic you can clearly see the part which appears "shaved" clearly extends past the leading edge of the compressor wheel. Unless your turbo literally has 1/4" of in/out shaft play, I'm going to have to agree with No Skillz on this one and say the housing was like that when you bought the turbo....it's just more visible now that there's some dirt on it.
 
Hey Osman, like some other have posted according to the pics, it doesn't look like the compressor wheel caused this "shaved area". Do the wheels still spin freely when you turn them by hand & if you give them a spin do they continue to spin for abit, like a BB turbo should?

While it is true BB turbo's require much less oil pressure then a std thrust bearing, I was under the impression too high oil pressure wouldn't physically damage the turbo, it would just push some oil. The Garrett BB center section (well atleast for their GT series) don't want to see more then 40-45 psi at full load. As has been said the oil pressure at the filter housing is much higher then at the head, since the head is basically at the end of the run. For this reason its also a very good idea to run an inline filter. I run mine off the head & also have the FP inline filter that has a restrictor built in, to restrict oil pressure even further. Robert from FP told me they have tested ther GT turbo's as low as 10psi at full load, without any issues. I do know PTE usually come with an inline restrictor, did you run this?
 
Hi,

Why dont you take off the housings and inspect the wheels for any evidence of them hitting there respective housings? From all the pictures you posted the wheels look fine.

Also, I think you said that you measured the shaft play previously when you got the turbo and that you also measured it recently. You said you came up with the same amount of shaft play so doesn't that mean the bearings have not changed since when you got it and currently? Did it give you any problems when you first got the turbo. If it didn't, maybe the bearings aren't your problem. If I don't have something straight or I'm not thinking of something correctly, then someone please correct me.

Bill
 
Boy do I feel like a dum-dum. Last edit made to that first post was quite a while ago, I suppose I should have put a disclaimer in there. Although it is commonly recommended to run from the head with a filter, there are those that have also run from the OFH with a restrictor with little issues. Mike is right, the inner lip of the to4e cover is in fact machined for a bit of tolerance from the blades themselves. The best way to tell if the CHRA is having excessive side-side play is to push the center nut all the way to one side and see if the blades are touching the housing.
 
The best way to tell if the CHRA is having excessive side-side play is to push the center nut all the way to one side and see if the blades are touching the housing.


Exactly, lightly push it to one side and rotate it with your fingers. I bet the wheel doesn't touch the housing. I took an aprenticeship on rebuilding and machining turbos, and almost all compressor housings are machined to fit the wheel when ordered, instead of having a casting of each to match the huge number of wheels available. Usually they are sanded and blended smooth with emery cloth and fine sand paper after the machiing, but light tooling marks that weren't completely removed will show up just like the dark areas in your pics and it will look like the wheel did it. You don't see them when new, but after some K&N filter oil and some light dust passes through they show right up.

Most of our to4e generation of turbos (at least in the beggining of the turbo kit boom 9-10 years ago) they were mostly all reworks of old ford and volvo hot side housings(the T3 part), and most of the compressor housings in the 4e and 4b family were cores from old farm equipment. The To4E housing with a 57 trim wheel (what i run) was actually popular on the 70's erra John Deer 510 tractor... Now days there's a lot of improvements to the turbos that are specificly designed for aftermarket performance use, hence all the new GT series and Holset options that are now available, Even the older rayjay aircraft turbos have been picked up by turbonetics and have been completely redesigned for better performance and longer life span. I guess i'm babbling about this, but turbos are a lot tougher than one would think. And i'm betting your issues are not coming from a bad CHRA..... Just curious, does anyone remember the "Bullistic Series" the "Thumper series" and the "Y2K" series turbos?? I haven't heard squat about them since the late 90's


Anyway, the turbo looks fine as far as what can be determined by only a picture to go from. You may have just had issues with the excess oil pressure slowing the turbine shaft. If there's no in and out play and the blades don't touch the side of the housing, i would put it back on and figure out where the underlying problem is coming from.
 
by the way! I forgot to note that in the picture of your internal wastegate, all of that carbon buildup may lead to your wastegate door not fully sealing. Can you verify? If your wastegate is not perfectly flat, that could definitely be the reason why your car is not building boost.
 
even from the head location do not run a BB turbo without a restrictor fitting.
 
Its all good Tom. I ran the oil feed from the OFH with the restrictor that was supplied by PTE, Daren.

About the carbon build up Tom, it seems the flapper is shutting flat but that is just with visual and hands on inspection. I will clean it up depending on the life of this turbo.

Now both turboglenn and Tom, I have tried moving the shaft to the side and you guys are right, it does not touch the housing. However, to Daren's point about spinning the turbine and it should just spin freely like a BB does here is what I found:

-an ever so slight push to the shaft to one side and the the turbine spins like a champ, exactly how a BB does and thats kind of hard to explain. I guess the best way to say it is that it spins freely and the spin also lasts for a bit, like Daren mentioned.

-an ever slight push in the opposite direction, the spin is considerably a little tight and the spin does not last as long as the other test

-having said that, it still does not touch the housing but in comparison, it seems to be "sluggish"

By the way guys, thanks for input so far and all the help is greatly appreciated. Oh and glad to hear from you Tom as you seem to be the PTE 5031RE champ, that will hopefully hit 11's this year. And Daren, hopefully you are preparing to hit 12's this year (damn FWD)!!

-Osman
 
Well, just to give an update.

I sent the turbo back to PTE as it was still under warrenty. Matt at PTE, great guy and company to deal with (two thumbs up), took the turbo apart the day he recieved it (yesterday) and found the bearings to be a little shaken up. He replaced the bearings with new ones and reconditioned the turbo, so it looks like new again!!!!

The snail is making its way back to home!!

P.S I just don't like to see threads just left without an outcome or a resolution, so thats why I thought I'll give you guys an update. It helps to read complete threads when you search that have an end to it!

Cheers,
Osman
 
i was under the impression that BB turbos could not be rebuilt.. Was i wrong? Glad you are getting it repaired.
 
Its ironic you make that point because I have been reading about that all over the net and the answers I see to that question about, can BB turbos be rebuilt is, yes. The BB parts and the labour to put them all together cost a lot!!! When I say a lot, I mean it exceeds the price of the turbo itself. That's why most of the time people just toss them out after the the turbo is shot. I am not 100% sure would anyone else want to chime in......
 
your right, most don't rebuild BB turbos. Its expensive and isn't very popular not to mention there aren't a whole lot of places that do it, so competition is limited which is reasoning for the higher prices IMO.
 
Yeah, that seems to the general thought amongst all turbo users. Even here in the GTA, I searched around just for my knowlegde to see if some shop does rebuild BB turbos and I didn't find one. They all seem to have said to just buy another one if you want the same one again.
 
you can not rebuild a gt-r garett turbo but you have a modified 50 trim bb. You can rebuild them since pte developed the bb center section out of a normal journal bearing housing.
 
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