Ran down the track tonight and am pissed! What is wrong?

[EagleTalonTim]

Finally, for the first time I get to take my car to the track. Before I left, I checked my timing and adjusted my boost controller to 10psi since my car does nothing but black smoke the entire time I am at WOT. I am running the stock 13b that comes on the auto's. The timing is at -7 BTDC. I am running NGKBPR63S plugs or something like that.. I know they are 6 something. They are less than one month old and so are the plug wires.
The track is one hour away, so I hit the interstate and set my cruise at 70. When I got to the track, I popped my hood to check everything again and my manifold and turbo was glowing! I just left it running and let it cool down. That is just one of my problems. When I finally got to go down the strip, I noticed that my boost gauge hit 20psi, then dropped right back down to 10psi where I set it. It only happens when I take off. Since my car is an Auto, the boost should stay the whole time down the track. I got one of my friends to watch me as I went down the track and they said it was black smoking the entire way down. Needless to say, me best run was a 16.1 at 86mph. My N/T was faster than that!!! What should I check for??? What is causing all my problems?

Thanks in advance!
Tim

 

[turbosax2]

I would go with an Evo III 16g. Also, port the turbo, exhaust manifold, and o2 housing instead of buying a new one.

 

[Talesin]

Evo 3 16g, it's not worth the cost outlay to go with a small or Big 16g at this point. If you can get a used one in GOOD condition, a B16G is okay to run on. But if you're paying full admission price, the Evo 3 16g is what you want to go with.

If you can, a 2G exhaust manifold is a good upgrade (resists cracking WAY better than the 1G) as is a 2G O2 housing (much better flow), and both of those can be done at the same time as tossing on the E3-16G. Porting isn't neccessary with those parts, and I'm not too much a proponent of newbies porting things unless they have a spare laying around. Take off too much, and it'll crack through heat cycling. Don't do the port smooth enough, and the turbulence increase can make things flow WORSE than unported in some cases.

 

[dsm-onster]

No, you NEVER remove the large honeycomb. People have done that in the past, despite advice to the contrary, and were soon looking for a replacement MAS.

43-37 = 6, 6psi is 17% of 37, the target value. Given variation (35psi is within stock parameters without vac read for a 1G MT turbo), it can go over 20%. What math are YOU using to get that 7%? We aren't looking at it in relation to the AT stock fuel pressure, as that's the current, NOT the desired level.

And yes, you can run a Big 16g/Evo 3 16g on the stock fuel system, so long as you keep the boost low (10-14psi maximum) and have no boost leaks. You'll feel it pull a lot harder than a 13g or 14b, too. Wastegate spring pressure is 10psi, but you'll probably still pull harder on that 10 than you pull on 16 with the 13g now.

And yes, adjust your timing to 5 BTDC. Don't forget to ground the proper connector on the firewall so the ECU will go hands-off.

The DSMLink user manual. You need the square root of the factor you are suggesting.

FlowFactor1G = sqrt(New FP / Old FP)

A/T fpr => 43.5 psi base, M/T fpr => 37 psi base

FlowFactor1G = sqrt(43.5psi / 37psi) = 1.084​

Multiply this by the flow. This is the difference in flow. . .

The DSM_Tuning_Sheet_v2.1.xls backs this up.

450s at 37 psi => 39.53 lb/hr. 450s at 43.5 psi => 42.86 lb/hr.

(42.86 - 39.53) / 39.53 = 8.42% more, or a factor of 1.08 derived from above quote from the dmlink manual.​

Your factor (43.5-37)/37 = 17.6% => 1.176 (17% more).

Sqrt(1.176) = 1.084 or 8.4% more flow.​

. . . Add this to my personal experience.



And I agree. Keep the boost that low (what Talesin said) and you will be fine.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

wow, that was alot of information! I just adjusted my timing to 5* BTDC and adjusted my manual boost controller to 12psi. I noticed a big difference. The car did not feel like it was struggling to get up past 5K and when i shifted, it felt like it pulled alot harder. I am still upgrading to an Evo 3 16g with a tubular O2 housing. Found one in the classifieds on here and will be ordering it hopefully today.

 

[TurboAnything]

That will help your car greatly with the added airflow. Just remember you have to put in at least a 190lph fuel pump for that turbo. Also since you have a 13g your oil lines will not work on the 16g you need a feed and return line for a TDO5h turbo.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

can I buy those at Oreilly's? If so, what should I ask for specifically....you know how most part stores are

 

[SOADweskey]

You want a Walbro 190lph fuel pump. You can check if they can get it at your local parts store or you can order it from an online vendor.

 

[dsm-onster]

Also since you have a 13g your oil lines will not work on the 16g you need a feed and return line for a TDO5h turbo.

Are you sure? . . . I'm not doubting you. I guess I could go out to my back yard and check on my own. My brother has an auto awd and he's wanting my small 16g. . .

 

[EagleTalonTim]

sorry...i was referring to the oil lines

 

[EagleTalonTim]

does Oreilly's sell the oil lines for the Evo 3 16g turbo?

 

[tqmx1]

My guess no. The odds are you will be visiting your local. Not arguing with TurboAnything but I would try fitting them up before I spent the BIG$$

 

[Talesin]

Agreed, try fitting them up before spending extra cash. Oh, but DO use new crush washers... reusing old tired ones usually results in leaky lines.

And you do NOT need a 190lph pump so long as you keep the boost low! You only need to really upgrade the fuel system if you are going to exceed the stock cfm flow rating under full burn. You will WANT one when you get around to doing the fuel system, but it isn't neccessary to install it and run it DD at wastegate spring 10psi. I'd actually recommend dropping your MBC to 12psi (stock 1G boost) or wastegate 10psi (stock 1G boost when a certain amount of knock is detected, and the ECU actuates the BCS). You may find that it pulls harder and more smoothly, without pulled timing. Romping on the boost can be fun, but if you overextend your setup, you'll actually end up going slower.
Also, even for a 190lph pump (especially rewired) you will need an AFPR. At which point there's no reason not to go with a Walbro 255-HP instead, and have sufficient fuel to join the 400 club, if you ever aspire to that kind of output level.

Instead of special ordering through Satan, give RRE a call. They ship stuff like that pretty quick, and will know for CERTAIN whether the 13g oil feed/return lines will bolt up to an E3-16G or if you'll need to buy new ones. They also seem to have way better prices than a dealership is willing to give an average consumer (though with ClubDSM, some dealerships can be pretty cool).
If you buy anything from RRE, pick up a fresh set of turbo bolts and washers at the same time... my bolts would CONSTANTLY back out, to the point where I'd torque them down daily. A pair of the weird curved washers installed properly, and they haven't budged since. Hell, they might even have an install kit package if you ask.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

ok, this is what they sent me back :

They never had JDM Turbo or AWD Eclipses. They are an American car only.

You would need our SS Oil Supply line for sure $55

7cm gasket $20

2 Oil Drain Gaskets $3

10mm stud to O2 housing $3.50

Head to manifold gasket $16

Water Line crush washers $5

And maybe a few other part you wont know for sure till you rip it all apart.

Sound about right?

 

[Talesin]

Sounds about right, even if that oil supply line is kind of steep. You should ask them if the oil return line will bolt up, or if you'll need that too. And make sure the feed line comes with a fresh set of crush washers.
And yeah... who told you there was a 'JDM' DSM? All of them were built in Normal, IL. 15 1Gs were imported TO Japan and retrofitted with t-top/gull-wing doors (which look drop dead sexy!!) but there are NO 'JDM' DSMs. There are JDM motors, from other cars with the 4G63t engine.
Which is one reason I really laugh at our community members who have jumped on the 'JDM' bandwagon. It's shorthand for 'Japanese junkyard parts' anyway.

If it were me, I'd grab everything from them EXCEPT that oil feed line... I'd check pick-a-parts for a 1G turbo DSM with the feed line still on the car, assuming your feed line comes from the stock location (passenger side of the head). Then again, I'm not currently a big proponent of relocating the turbo oil feed to the oil filter housing as many seem to do, nor of SS lines (except brake lines) in general. Your call on that one, as it seems to be a popular modification.

 

[Icarus]

I just had a few questions and couple comments.

First the Auto oil return will bolt to the TD05 center section, no need to replace that if you're on a budget. But as others have stated the oil supply will not unless...

If your JDM crate motor came with 450cc injectors wouldn't that mean that it's a M/T. That would mean if you used the the fuel rail and FPR that came with it that would be M/T as, well solving the FPR question. Also that would mean that your motor might have come with oil lines for TD05. Did you swap them when the motor was installed.

I would have guessed, based on your problems, you had a A/T ECU and that was the source of problem. Did you ever get it solved completely?

Most of these guys will tell you to do it right and I would agree, but if you're in a serious finacial pinch, your 13b is tits up and you can get your hands on a free 14b, you can use a helicoil and teflon tape to bolt up that oil line. Worked for me leak free for a year before the car died due to other issues.

 

[93blueGS]

Where are you at in Memphis? I could probably help you figure out whats wrong if you need my help.. Just let me know..

Also, try JNZtuning for those parts you're looking for.. All 1g oil return lines are the same.. They will work with any bolt on Mitsubishi turbo (13g, 14b, 16g are all AFAIK, maybe 18g, 20g).. All water lines are the same for the 1g.. Oil feed lines are different however..

If I were you, I'd first check your turbo to make sure that you have what you think you have.. Easy way to tell between the 13g and 14b are the markings on the compressor housing.. 13g = TD04, and 14b = TD05..

A friend of mine also has a 14b and a 16g for sale and a metric ass ton of dsm parts..

 

[EagleTalonTim]

I live right off of 64 past the Wolfchase mall. The turbo is defiantly a 13g. It has TD04 on the turbo. The JDM motor already had blue top injectors on it, and I was already running a M/T ECU in my car on my 7 bolt that I was running. I upgraded injectors to 450's way before i blew the 7 bolt. I am really confused on what exactly I am going to need for the installation of this turbo. I was going to go to Oreilly's and order a turbo gasket set and hope that was all i needed.

 

[93blueGS]

Well, really the only thing you'll need when switching to a 16g is the oil feed line unless you open yours up at the turbo.. You'll also need the gaskets.. Everything else should bolt right up..

 

[dareisstupid]

Wow that is alot of answers that really arn't answering anything. Black smoke means rich or bad gas. Oil is white to blueish. Turbos blow white if they are bad. And if you have 10lbs of boost then it isn't bad. I would just wait until you get the dsmlink and wideband. With the dsm link you will know what the problem is. I wonder if you are the only person thats ever got a dsmlink for a 13b? How much smoke was there? Was it like tractor pull black smoke or just a little puff? My truck is running really rich and has little puffs and the exhaust tip in black. And if you are running rich your egt's should be lower. So i don't know why your turbo was so hot.

 

[dsm-onster]

Wow that is alot of answers that really arn't answering anything. Black smoke means rich or bad gas. Oil is white to blueish. Turbos blow white if they are bad. And if you have 10lbs of boost then it isn't bad. I would just wait until you get the dsmlink and wideband. With the dsm link you will know what the problem is. I wonder if you are the only person thats ever got a dsmlink for a 13b? How much smoke was there? Was it like tractor pull black smoke or just a little puff? My truck is running really rich and has little puffs and the exhaust tip in black. And if you are running rich your egt's should be lower. So i don't know why your turbo was so hot.

His issue got answered correctly. . . Thanx for reiterating. 's tells us black smoke is present and his turbo is red hot.

EGTs do not go down if you are running rich enough to combust in the exhaust port/manifold. Have you ever seen a rich backfire at night? Fire/explosions are not cooling. But still, black smoke is a result in this case. . .

 

[EagleTalonTim]

My timing was off and it was burning gasses after the exhaust valves causing the manifold to heat up while the gasses were trying to get past the turbo. I now have my timing set at 5* BTDC and it is not glowing as bad as it was.

 

[JayRolla]

Did you get the car to hold a steady boost without spike. This should give you a better timing curve and some more power. Also I dont remember but did you post your 60' time?

 

[fourreGsixty3]

My timing was off and it was burning gasses after the exhaust valves causing the manifold to heat up while the gasses were trying to get past the turbo. I now have my timing set at 5* BTDC and it is not glowing as bad as it was.

HAHA told you that would help

Now we just have to get that spiking undercontrol, and we will be going in the right direction.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

ok, sorry to bring this topic back alive, but i just got back from Texas and the car did pretty good. I left the timing on 5* BTDC and always use 93 octane at either Exxon or Shell. I prefer Exxon though. Since it was a long trip, I decided to check my gas mileage..... i got a whopping 20.9 on the interstate running 93 Exxon fuel. Now...here is the question. My temp gauge barely got over the first line the entire 5 hour trip back, but my manifold was still glowing red hot. Before I left, I took my lower heat shield off since i don't have a fan there just to see if it would stop glowing. Did not work I know for a fact that my temp gauge is not broken and that the temp sensor for the gauge is working correctly. What would cause this? Thanks again!

 

[tqmx1]

Thermostat stuck open.