Ran down the track tonight and am pissed! What is wrong?

[EagleTalonTim]

Finally, for the first time I get to take my car to the track. Before I left, I checked my timing and adjusted my boost controller to 10psi since my car does nothing but black smoke the entire time I am at WOT. I am running the stock 13b that comes on the auto's. The timing is at -7 BTDC. I am running NGKBPR63S plugs or something like that.. I know they are 6 something. They are less than one month old and so are the plug wires.
The track is one hour away, so I hit the interstate and set my cruise at 70. When I got to the track, I popped my hood to check everything again and my manifold and turbo was glowing! I just left it running and let it cool down. That is just one of my problems. When I finally got to go down the strip, I noticed that my boost gauge hit 20psi, then dropped right back down to 10psi where I set it. It only happens when I take off. Since my car is an Auto, the boost should stay the whole time down the track. I got one of my friends to watch me as I went down the track and they said it was black smoking the entire way down. Needless to say, me best run was a 16.1 at 86mph. My N/T was faster than that!!! What should I check for??? What is causing all my problems?

Thanks in advance!
Tim

 

[JayRolla]

I cant belive no one mentioned that he is spiking way too much. Its not boost creep its a spike. If your hitting 20psi and causing detonation. That heats up the air too much and your getting timing pull. Remove the boost controller and see if it feels a little more stronger. No timing pull and you will have a lot more power. Not to mention your timing is off.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

I did mention it was spiking in my first post..or was it my second. Cant remember. But that's a good reason why it feels like a dog.

 

[Talesin]

Timing is off (should be at 5 BTDC, not 7, and yes it makes a difference), as well as the automatic FPR. I'd replace it with a MT Turbo FPR (they're cheap, and generally plentiful at pick-a-parts) to get your fuel back into MT range. It'll give you a better starting point than setting your AFC to -18% across the board just to compensate for the almost 20% richer the automatic FPR is making you run.
You also might consider doing the 1G MAS honeycomb hack (which should NEVER be done on a 2G MAS! Ever!) as the stock maps at proper pressure are already aimed at running stupidly rich.

In addition, burning oil can cause black smoke as well. Happened with my old 14b. If the turbo seals are toast, it sounds like it's time to upgrade. Then again, on a 13g, it's time to upgrade even if it's in pristine condition.

The 20% rich thing from the FPR would also cause the freeway-driving manifold glow, as running too rich will raise your exhaust gas temps, just like running too lean.
Mine would glow all the time, until I had the engine worked on by a DSM specialist, and found out that when the previous owner had the engine replaced by KarKing, they slapped on a N/T oil pan with a hole drilled into it, and the turbo oil return line held in place with self-tapping sheet metal screws. The return hole diameter was bottlenecking the flow BADLY, in addition to leaking oil all over the place. Switching to a proper turbo oil pan fixed the leak, and now it doesn't glow from just freeway driving... even the glow from doing hard hillclimbs is markedly reduced, only taking about three to five minutes to go completely dull again.

 

[TurboAnything]

I dont think FPR would cause that much black smoke that people are aware of it. Also i have had 3 turbo dsms and all would cause the manifold to glow red if i cruised on the highway. Think about it prolonged 3-4000rpms with any where from 10in vacume to 10psi of boost you would glow too. If it's blowing as much smoke as i think then it's not the FPR i run a 255lph walbro and my fuel pressure stays at 46psi with a 1g m/t regulator and my computer was able to trim it down with no richness.

 

[Defiant]

Next time, you should use a car.

 

[Talesin]

I dont think FPR would cause that much black smoke that people are aware of it. Also i have had 3 turbo dsms and all would cause the manifold to glow red if i cruised on the highway. Think about it prolonged 3-4000rpms with any where from 10in vacume to 10psi of boost you would glow too. If it's blowing as much smoke as i think then it's not the FPR i run a 255lph walbro and my fuel pressure stays at 46psi with a 1g m/t regulator and my computer was able to trim it down with no richness.

And you're overrunning your regulator like crazy. I have to be curious how a canned EPROM replacement would be able to deal with that kind of overrun with 'no' ill effects, given that (assuming that's with the vac reference attached) you're running nearly 200% expected fuel flow, counting the EPROM adjustment for the larger squirters. The stock computer LTFT wouldn't be able to cope with that, and doesn't even pay attention while at WOT (though the overrun would be less noticeable given the amount of flow involved, I'm guessing that tuning is a total bi*** for you with that much fuel pressure fluctuation).
Not sure I'd classify boosting at all as 'cruising', for that matter. And 3500rpm in fifth scoots you along at a nice 75mph clip, even with the crap 1G AWD gearing ratios. 4K is definitely not a cruise.

Given that he didn't notice the smoke, and was only alerted to the problem by friends, it isn't belching Spy Hunter 'dead piston' clouds. That would be a seperate problem though, compared to his doing a slow pass, more likely attributable to dying seals in the turbo (especially if it ONLY smokes while boosting). Running that rich would definitely contribute to lazy times though, especially in conjunction with the extra-retarded base timing, and varying driver performance. After all, a good launch and hooking up perfect, hitting all the shifts right away will make all the difference.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Next time, you should use a car.

HAHA, thats funny Defiant, he's pretty quick on his feet though.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

Defiant. I did use my car. If I ran, I would probably pass out halfway down the track

With all these posts, I am confused now on what I should do now. I have been running the manual ECU for awhile now and the Blue Top injectors actually came on the red top JDM motor that came out of an Auto. I have the ECU that came with the motor, but alot of the wires in the wiring harness did not match and it was missing an entire section, so I just left my existing computer in the car. What exactly is LTFT and STFL? sorry...new to the turbo world. I was stuck in N/T world for 5 years and never had these problems.
Is the honeycomb removal actually a good thing to do. I have read up on alot of bad things that can happen if I remove that. If it is ok to do, where are some good instructions on how to do that. Junk yards around here do not have turbo cars and that is my only mode of transportation right now so I can't screw up anything too bad.

I have been thinking of getting a 16g, but can i run my same setup maybe with a little less boost and just add the turbo?

 

[kottyking]

What condition is the ecu in?

 

[EagleTalonTim]

perfect. i opened it up and everything is fine. as for the ECU that came with the JDM motor, I am not sure if that is ok, never hooked it up because of different wiring harness.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

LTFT=Long Term Fuel Trim
STFT=Short Term Fuel Trim

Heres how to remove the honeycomb... http://www.vfaq.com/mods/filter-print.html

BUT...I wouldn't do too much to your car till you figure out your current problem.

You are spiking...well actually your turbo is. Remove the MBC, and put the boost control solenoid back in place. See if this helps fix your problem, and grab a fuel pressure just before the rail so we can see how much is going into your rail.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

I have already done that to the MAF. I was thinking they were talking about the large honeycomb area. Still have problems with it running rich. I tried one of my friends MAF and it still burned rich, I even reset the battery. I have No CEL light on either.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Whats your fuel pressure at?

 

[EagleTalonTim]

i have no idea. it is all stock.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

If you can snag a stock one off a junk your TSi ( but try for a 5-spd), just to see if auto fpr are higher pressure then manual fpr's.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

i will see if I can order one somewhere. no junk yards around here have turbo DSM's They are rare around my area.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

That sucks. I have a few junkyards around me, and each one has a hand full of turbo'd DSMs

 

[dsm-onster]

I dont think FPR would cause that much black smoke that people are aware of it.

It doesn't. I've done it. I've run an a/t fpr w/ my m/t ecu and 450s and ran about 7% richer. . . BTW, if you do the math, 43psi vs 37 psi base fuel pressure yields about 7% more fuel flow. Not 20% more. This is well within the ecu's range of trim adjustment.

I'll bet he still has a boost leak. . . though he passed the boost leak test.

Nevertheless, 86 mph in the 1/4 w/ a typical auto awd 1g comes out to about 160whp. About right for stockish boost and no un-free mods considering the drivetrain loss. See Simple Horsepower Calculator.

Also i have had 3 turbo dsms and all would cause the manifold to glow red if i cruised on the highway. Think about it prolonged 3-4000rpms with any where from 10in vacume to 10psi of boost you would glow too. If it's blowing as much smoke as i think then it's not the FPR i run a 255lph walbro and my fuel pressure stays at 46psi with a 1g m/t regulator and my computer was able to trim it down with no richness.

My m/t FPR still spiked to over 50 psi base w/ my walbro 255, however. So did 4 others I've worked on w/ a walbro swap.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Nice info Matt. That has cleared that option up for me. Good to know that the A/T, and M/T FPRs have different spring rates.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

so should I just adjust my timing to 5* BTDC and change my boost to around 13 or 14psi? I need to find another turbo because this little 13g just is not pushing it fast enough. As I asked before, can I run a 16g turbo on the same set up I have now?

 

[Talesin]

No, you NEVER remove the large honeycomb. People have done that in the past, despite advice to the contrary, and were soon looking for a replacement MAS.

43-37 = 6, 6psi is 17% of 37, the target value. Given variation (35psi is within stock parameters without vac read for a 1G MT turbo), it can go over 20%. What math are YOU using to get that 7%? We aren't looking at it in relation to the AT stock fuel pressure, as that's the current, NOT the desired level.

And yes, you can run a Big 16g/Evo 3 16g on the stock fuel system, so long as you keep the boost low (10-14psi maximum) and have no boost leaks. You'll feel it pull a lot harder than a 13g or 14b, too. Wastegate spring pressure is 10psi, but you'll probably still pull harder on that 10 than you pull on 16 with the 13g now.

And yes, adjust your timing to 5 BTDC. Don't forget to ground the proper connector on the firewall so the ECU will go hands-off.

 

[My1GLaser]

I really didn't have time to read the whole thread, so I don't know all your symptoms. When you replaced the exhaust, did you reconnect the grounding strap that goes from the stock exhaust to the car? You can't run without that wire. It is the O2 sensor ground and without it the car will run rich as hell. I have had a car with the exact same symptoms due to this one freaking ground wire. Hope this helps.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

Honestly, I have never checked for a ground wire on the exhaust. where would it be located? Where is a good place to get a 16g turbo with everything needed to just bolt it on? I would prefer not to go Ebay.

 

[My1GLaser]

It is right around the cat at the end of the downpipe. It is a unshielded braided ss wire. You will know it when you see it. It goes from one of the heat shields around the downpipe to a chassis ground. You had mentioned removing the cat and upgrading to a 2.5" exhaust, so I thought it could have been overlooked during the install. If it isn't there, just run at least a 10ga wire from the DP to a good chassis ground and see if it helps.

I don't know anything about the 13G, but if it has coolant lines and oil feed/return like a 14b then it should bolt right up, right? You can buy a used turbo from the classifieds here. I have had good luck with parts on this forum. If you want new then try importevolution.com. Its where I get my parts and Ryan is a great guy. I would recommend an EVO III 16g if your are going to upgrade. I have hit 41 lb/min according to my DSMLink and ShapeGSX is running 11s with it. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235323&highlight=18g
Good luck.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

ok, guess I will look for a 16g and see what I come up with. Should I go for a big or small 16g? I should probably replace the O2 housing too while I am at it right?