Question about headstuds and gasket replacement

[Joe Cool]

I have spent a few months gathering all of the necessary parts and information for my build and I am in the final stages of preparation. I simply need to grab a part or two more and I am going to throw everything together.

Just so that everyone knows what I'll be running as a reference, the important parts are as follows:


Ported MHI E316G
Short Route 3" FMIC with 2.5" Piping
HKS SSQV
1150 FIC Injectors
Walbro 255LPH HP Fuel Pump w/ Rewire
Fuel lab AFPR
AEM/Snow/Devilsown Water/Meth Injection System
DSMLink V3
3" Stainless Steel Turboback & O2 Housing


I am hoping to push my stock block and hit high 11's with this setup. I am still deciding on if I want to run on 91, E85 is available but it is about 45 minutes away and I'm not sure how I feel about that drive every time I need gas.

So my question is primarily this: In order to reach my goals in the 1/4, I know that I will need to be running some serious boost and I will be pushing this turbo pretty close to it's ragged edge. I have heard many things around locally about the headgasket and when it becomes a good idea to replace it. So I'd just like to get straight answers to my curiousity.

1. I have been told that if the headgasket works fine now that you can simply throw on the ARP head studs and they won't stretch so it will not lift and blow out easily, because from what I know the main cause of a blown headgasket under boost is the lifting, caused by the studs stretching, is this true?

2. I have recently had an overheating issue and the car saw 220F. I fixed the issue and have not noticed any performance issues nor coolant in my oil/oil in my coolant. I realize that running high temperatures can warp the head. I would like to check my head to make sure it is level before putting on any kind of new headgasket, obviously, can anyone recommend a way that I could do this on my own? Also, should the head be warped, how much does it usually cost to get it resurfaced and what other maintenance/upgrades could be cheaply done to the head while I've got it off? I am obviously not making this into a full drag car but I will take performance and reliability where I can because this is my daily.

Any help or expert advice would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

To answer one of your questions. It only cost like $40 to have a head milled and cleaned. Depends on the shop, I brought mine to a local machinist that I know.

If your looking for reliability, the stock 7 bolt rods and stock tranny are going to be your weak points when trying to make that goal.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

How many miles are on the block? Its never a bad idea to replace the head gasket, especially if your looking to up the boost.

 

[Joe Cool]

Should the connecting rods really be a big thing to worry about with the goal? I've heard of people pushing their stock block even a little further, on different turbos. I do agree that the transmission may have to be replaced, as it will be a large difference in power and the parts aren't necessarily new anymore.

There are currently 135k miles on the stock engine. I will honestly probably end up just going with the ARPs and an MLS headgasket, but I am relieved at the price you've told me it would be for the head work, I was told that it would be at least $200. While I am certainly not going to cheap out on my build I do not want to spend the money on something that would be fine as it is. But again, being my daily, it is better safe than sorry.

Any recommended ways to check for a head in need of resurface once I have it off?

 

[Fabian]

if I was you, I'd just pull the head off and replace the headgasket anyways. The MLS is a much better choice when you're turning boost up and the arps are too. Why not just get it done at once and then you'll have your mind put to ease too.

 

[BogusSVO]

2. I have recently had an overheating issue and the car saw 220F. I fixed the issue and have not noticed any performance issues nor coolant in my oil/oil in my coolant. I realize that running high temperatures can warp the head. I would like to check my head to make sure it is level before putting on any kind of new headgasket, obviously, can anyone recommend a way that I could do this on my own? Also, should the head be warped, how much does it usually cost to get it resurfaced and what other maintenance/upgrades could be cheaply done to the head while I've got it off? I am obviously not making this into a full drag car but I will take performance and reliability where I can because this is my daily.

Any help or expert advice would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

well I do not think you ran hot at 220*, water boils at 212* and for every lb your rad cap holds you can go up by 3* on the temp, so with a GOOD stock cap of 13lbs x 3* = 39* over boil so 212* + 39* = 251* to boil over, you just ran a bit warmer than your used to seeing.

if you plan on running a MLS Gasket, there is no way that you can surface the head yourself and have it seal properly. A shop with good equipment can tho. DO NOT LET THEM BELT SURFACE YOUR HEAD!!!!

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/341627-how-check-head-warp.html

this is how your head needs to look for a MLS gasket...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...face-4g63t-cylinder-head-mls-head-gasket.html

Make sure the shop measures the thickness of your head, before and after they mill it. you may have to get a thicker than stock HG if it is getting "thin"

for every .008 milled off the head closes up the combustion chamber by 1 cc

according to the Mitsu factory manual, a combined total mill from the block and head can only be .008

BUT according to AERA (Automotive Engine Rebuilders Assoc.) the max allowed mill of the head is .015

so based off the AERA, the "new" thickness of a head is 5.201 so the "min" thickness spec is listed at 5.185

also the oil trough in the bottom of the head needs to be .080 deep...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html


just having your head milled, on a decent machine should run $40-$60
a valve job should be about $150.

I would install a new set of valve springs if you have the stockers on it also. The BC springs will drop in and work with the stock retainers.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341209-4g63t-valve-spring-info.html

if you do decide to have a Valve job done, ask the machine shop to Back cut the valves ...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341288-why-have-your-valves-back-cut.html

also ask what type of equipment they use for cutting/grinding the valve seats, If they use a stone grinder for the seats, take your head to another shop, stones will give you bad seat run out and make the seats "egged" shaped.
Find a shop that uses a 3 angle carbide insert cutter for the seats.

heres a vid on resurfacing a head...

YouTube - Resurfacing an Aluminum Cylinder Head

hope this awnsers your questions...

 

[-red97rum-]

Man, you're talking about taking on a lot of work when it really isn't necessary. If your headgasket is in good shape, just replace the stock bolts with the ARPs and call it a day. There are plenty of examples of people doing this with no ill effects, just do a search.

I just did a headgasket job on my 1g and it is a pain in the ass so get ready . It cost me $40 to get the head resurfaced. If you do a headgasket you should think about doing the timing belt, pulleys and water pump while you're in there. If you are going to do the full headgasket job, do some reading to prepare yourself, take your time and you'll be fine.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

I managed to bend two of my stock rods with my s16g when I put down 280awhp. I didn't know they were bent until I spun a bearing and rebuilt.

 

[gsx7707]

i have pushed my stock block to 28lbs on headstuds and felpro gasket no problems

 

[Fabian]

Our motors are capable of awesome things. But doesnt mean you should ALWAYS push the limits.

 

[Dsmx17]

the way our heads warp can be checked with a framing square (ive put several engines together and checked the heads like this every time) unless its a visable warp on a square I wouldnt worry about it, just make sure to install the head in proper sequence (with heat cycle) and it'll seal up fine.

if your concerned with it use copper gasket spray on the mls.

 

[gsx7707]

did the same thing dsmx17 said on a grand national and it worked great 10.30 @130 28lbs stock bottom

 

[ToughTalon]

Most of your questions were answered by Bogus, dsmx and gsx. For my Personal experience I have made a calculated 400whp on a 50trim turbo with ARP head studs and a factory mitsu 'graphite' gasket with out any problems. As for the rest of ## engine and transmission holding up, pray for the best and go from there. Many people have run your desired set-up on factory short block and transmission. If you bend a rod or trash the transmission its going to be just as expensive as if you got a built transmission or engine (obviously if they blow or you 'build' them first it will be expensive either way is my main point).

Jus keep in mind you may need a cheap daily driver with your plans. ANY project can go wrong and leave you walking so keep that in mind, its really risky and very difficult to have a good/fast project car and depend on it to drive everyday.

As far as the technical side of things, the only thing I think people didnt cover is how important both mateing surfaces need to be for an MLS gasket, from my understanding, you will have a greater chance of success running the factory style 'graphite' gasket if you cannot get the block decked. I dont have much experience with MLS gaskets on DSMs (ive done a bunch on Ford cars where I use to work at a dealer) but the guy that does my machine work had me under the impression that simply cleaning the engine block with a razor blade scraper and useing scotch-brite pads to get a clean surface doesnt guarantee the surface will be flat enough for the MLS gasket to seal the way it is intended.

Any input from other people with 'hands on' experience would help out....

 

[Dsmx17]

tough talon is on point with teh success ratio for people using a mls gasket, the stock style would hold up fine or better with an undecked mating surface, however, I personally run a cometic gasket on stock block/head and run an average psi in the 34 range with zero issues.

 

[Joe Cool]

Thank you very much to everyone who has provided advice, I really appreciate it.

ToughTalon, was it recommended that I simply get a new OEM gasket from Mitsu and then use ARPs with it or will I be fine just using some new ARPs as I have heard? Based on this, is it still a good idea to get the head resurfaced? I don't really know if I'll be seeing pressure that warrants gettting the block decked too in order to use the MLS. I would rather be safe than sorry, but if the reported success rate in simply using an OEM gasket is higher than an undecked block with an MLS I suppose it is clear which route I should be going.

 

[BogusSVO]

Joe, have the head surfaced, use the arp with a composite gasket. and you should be fine.

Most of all.... DO NOT let the machine shop use a BELT SURFACER on your head!

with a composite it will seal for a bit if the head is belt surfaced, but the head will be "out of wack" it will not be square or indexed.

 

[Joe Cool]

Thank you again, sir. If it is not belt surfacing that they should so what kind of surfacing would it be called exactly? Simply "milling"? I don't want to ask for the wrong thing.