quest for 12's, got some ideas. what do you think?

[Fryertuck75]

Hi guys im a newbie....but not an idiot. ive built a 12 sec. daytona and a 13 sec. neon. Now i bought a bone stock 1g awd tsi, with the intent to build a 12 sec. daily driver. Heres what I THINK, would be a good start.
Complete engine rebuild, with all forged rotating assembly (is forged necesary?)
DSM link
20g turbo
750cc injectors
hks 272 cams
255hp pump
FMIC
some kind of heavy duty clutch
2g MAF (is this the best choice?)
I know im forgeting some things, but i want to start on the engine right way, so when its out being built, I will go over the rest of this car to replace needed suppension components, and other normal maintainance. Im rather new to DSM's and im just wondering if this is not enough, or if its overkill, for the results that im looking for. Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys!!

 

[talonDSMerr]

Forged internals aren't necessary for 12's. The stock block will get you there in one piece so you can save your money for other parts! You will definitely want to add intake and exhaust to your list, not to mention an afpr.

 

[JDR7919]

Sounds like a good plan with good tuning you could hit a low 12 high 11. Dont forget the metal Hg and arp head studs.
If you getting dsmlink you should get the biggest injectors you can so you dont have to buy again in the future.

 

[DarkStarMenace]

You're on right path. What do you pump in Winsconsin? Only reason I ask is the option of going into a 50 trim over the 20G. Nothing against the 20G, you'll be happy with it. But the 50 trims are far easier to tune and work with. Not only that, the fact that you could get a dual ball bearing turbo for the same price as a 20G helps too. These would spool quicker, last longer and more durable in terms of components.
Another thing to not overlook would be an AFPR, considering you are going with a 255 FP. Don't want any mishaps with tuning to happen. Also since you plan to have the motor assembled and work on the shell, might as well do a rewire for the pump if it hasn't been done already. This will help giving the pump the necessary current to drive properly.
As for the motor, if your gonna build it, build it right. Go forge.
The DSMLink will be one of the best tuning devices. The 750 cc injectors will just scrape what the DMSlink could do. I would go one size bigger, in case you want more boost and tuning capability.
I would definitely go with a ACT2600 setup, or if got the money and don't want any hassles, go with a QuarterMaster setup.
The FMIC is good, you could still go with a side mount and get good performance. But if you want the look, go for it.
The 2G MAF would help with more airflow but you got to rewire some things. IMO, might as well get a GM MAF setup. A couple of more steps and tuning but more capability.
These are my opinions and I am expecting others to respond. I get some of the guys I talk to to chime in.

 

[rstchris]

These cars are simpler than you might think, for example: i ran 13.7 @102 with only an intake, exhaust, 14b and 15psi. Cake walk compared to FWD.

 

[Fryertuck75]

You're on right path. What do you pump in Winsconsin? Only reason I ask is the option of going into a 50 trim over the 20G. Nothing against the 20G, you'll be happy with it. But the 50 trims are far easier to tune and work with. Not only that, the fact that you could get a dual ball bearing turbo for the same price as a 20G helps too. These would spool quicker, last longer and more durable in terms of components.
Another thing to not overlook would be an AFPR, considering you are going with a 255 FP. Don't want any mishaps with tuning to happen. Also since you plan to have the motor assembled and work on the shell, might as well do a rewire for the pump if it hasn't been done already. This will help giving the pump the necessary current to drive properly.
As for the motor, if your gonna build it, build it right. Go forge.
The DSMLink will be one of the best tuning devices. The 750 cc injectors will just scrape what the DMSlink could do. I would go one size bigger, in case you want more boost and tuning capability.
I would definitely go with a ACT2600 setup, or if got the money and don't want any hassles, go with a QuarterMaster setup.
The FMIC is good, you could still go with a side mount and get good performance. But if you want the look, go for it.
The 2G MAF would help with more airflow but you got to rewire some things. IMO, might as well get a GM MAF setup. A couple of more steps and tuning but more capability.
These are my opinions and I am expecting others to respond. I get some of the guys I talk to to chime in.

First off, i want to thank all of you that have replied so far! All that is around here is 91 octane, sometimes 92. But I also have a 55gal. drum of 110 Renegade nearby that is burnt in my Late Model stock car. But I would much rather stay on pump gas for driveability reasons.(i.e.-a trip to the track) Which AFPR would you recomend? Also, are the hks cams necesary?

 

[JDR7919]

Check these out
Import Evolution

 

[newTSIguy]

i think your set up will get you there, but it seems like overkill to me, a few nights ago i read a thread about this guy who ran 12s with a 14b and only a few mods to the fuel system, it was a very close to stock set up, i tried searching for this again and no luck, but good luck with your build

 

[PIMking]

save some money and get the Brian crower 272's. you can spend the extra money on adjustable cam gears.

 

[beansblacktsi]

save some money and get the Brian crower 272's. you can spend the extra money on adjustable cam gears.

there would be absolutely no need for the adjustable cam gears with the BC 272s.

 

[PIMking]

there would be absolutely no need for the adjustable cam gears with the BC 272s.

Really????

Read the forums and search that its much better to degree bc272's actually its better to do it with any aftermarket cam set.

 

[toofast82]

Are you trying to run high 12s or low. Also look a little into your future goals when you purchase your parts. For example 550-650cc injectors are good for 12s but 1000cc will work plenty to low 11s and can be tuned to run like stock with the right device. Fuel pump as well, a used evo8/9 pump($30+) will get you 12s but the 255hp can get you into the 10s. Many have run 12s on stock cams as well but youll need them if you want to go faster. Also the stock motors are very strong and i wouldnt fix it unless its broke.

 

[frankenstein406]

leave the stock bottom block alone holds 600 horsepower fine, save your money for nessacary upgrades. just get a wally 255 dont bother with a evo 8/9

 

[toofast82]

save your money for nessacary upgrades. just get a wally 255 dont bother with a evo 8/9

It really depends on his ultimate goals, but if 12s is his "end" goal a evo8/9 pump is much cheaper than 255 and will get the job done which will save money for necessary upgrades. Most likely he will want to go faster than that in the future in which case he should get the 255

 

[PIMking]

It really depends on his ultimate goals, but if 12s is his "end" goal a evo8/9 pump is much cheaper than 255 and will get the job done which will save money for necessary upgrades. Most likely he will want to go faster than that in the future in which case he should get the 255

Plus with the 255 you have to get a FPR and gauge.

 

[jrohner]

a evo8/9 pump is much cheaper than 255 and will get the job done which will save money for necessary upgrades.

A 255hp is only like 90 bucks, or at least it was when I got one a couple years ago.

 

[kahl23]

Nothing against the 20G, you'll be happy with it. But the 50 trims are far easier to tune and work with. Not only that, the fact that you could get a dual ball bearing turbo for the same price as a 20G helps too. These would spool quicker, last longer and more durable in terms of components.

I really have to disagree with you on your comments about 20G vs 50 trim. Mitsubishi turbos are well known for their ability to take abuse and keep on boosting. Ball bearing turbos will spool more quickly but are by no means more durable than journal bearing turbos. They are far more sensitive to oiling conditions and contamination, which is why almost every major vendor suggests running an inline oil filter in the feed line with BB turbos. I really can't see how the 50trim is easier to tune than the 20G without looking at compressor maps for both of them, but maybe the 50trim wheel retains more efficiency as the RPMs increase.
For your goals both turbos are overkill, a 16g or even a 14b would get the job done. Also you really don't need to run a GM MAF, I seriously doubt you'd be overrunning the 2g MAF, but there's no doubt that it is a better unit. With ECMLink v3 you can run a GM MAF with no translator, which definitely does simplify matters. Good luck with you build, you should definitely be able to hit 12s, and 11s are more than possible with any of the turbos I've mentioned (although hard to reach with a 16g and seriously difficult with a 14b).

 

[toofast82]

A 255hp is only like 90 bucks, or at least it was when I got one a couple years ago.

Actually Maperformance has them on sale for $75 right now. But if youre on a tight budget evo pumps can be had for as cheap as $30

 

[PIMking]

Actually Maperformance has them on sale for $75 right now. But if youre on a tight budget evo pumps can be had for as cheap as $30

well with me its not the fuel pump its the FPR that I really dont want to get.

 

[toofast82]

well with me its not the fuel pump its the FPR that I really dont want to get.

good point

 

[turboglenn]

IMO, The setup you outlined weems well thought out for a first time DSM'er IMO


First off, to establish that i'm not some kid making things up. i'm 31 and been building cars at home with my family stock car guys, and out of my garage and a place i work uning and doing poit side work for porsche club racers... I'm self employed, I own a painting business to support my love as a tuner/fabricator/weldor (which is it's own business ran under my painting license and taxes. I honestly make at least half of my living working only on tuning and installing ECU's (stand alones) along with fabbing up all kinda of cusom parts and turbo and intake plumbing. The painting fills the gaps in money and helps me buy more tools and welding goodies

So here's my thougts..First off.. NO need to build the motor, it can handle anything the 20 (and 50 trim) can offer right up until you max them out and they just don't push anymore air, so save that money and plan a build later after taking into consideration what you want to change after driving the car for a year with your planned combo on it. (some have pushed over 500 and i think one guy made 600 on a stock 1g block) You could even use some of it to buy the AFPR and a good fuel feed line setup (like a -6an to make the most of the pump's ability)

Now here's a long note on the durability of a wally 255 pump and "the must have theory" of an AFPR to go with it "or else" talk you hear.

I myself have run the same wally 255 from just about day one of owning the car ( 10 years and still going strong) I spent the first year, on a 16g, SAFc 550's, wally 255, a good exhaust and 2.5 IC piping i built. All of this on a stock fuel pressure regulator, stock fuel lines and stock fuel pump wiring (the stock wiring probably helped to limit the fuel pressure over-run.) And i always had a great idle, mileage and plenty of fuel wide open.

Then, a year or so later, i went stand alone EMS (haltech, because i had just become a dealer and hated fightin the stock ECU's knock sensor) And on the same setup as above, I tuned the new ECU and it still ran great.

it was sometime after the 720's big turbo nd haltech ECU that I got an AEM AFPR and AEM rail mainly for looks and it threw the tune off a bit because the fuel pressure dropped to where it should be and i had a lean condition then and had to up the pulsewidth a tad everywhere.... fast forward 2 more years to when I blew that motor (only the head gasket surprisingly) from the bad wideband and me tuning too lean at 22 psi, Then I sold the AFPR and AEM rail along with some other misc. to get money towards the new 6 bolt i had and was building.

So, once again I was back on a STOCK RAIL AND FPR, except by this time i was still on the upgraded the ECU, 720 injectors, a t3/t4 hyrbid (57 trim) and all the other little add ons i came across in those first 4 years... I drove like this for 5 more years (until last year around january), And when i first got the bigger turbo I was consistatly clicking off low 12 second passes, so close i could taste 11's..i.e. 12.0xxx at 117 - 119mph at 19psi and decent timing. And honestly the car ran fine...the tune didnt' change, it always had enough fuel and idled terific while being my daily driver and never did i experience andy driving issues related to over running the stock FPR

Then again when i got that AFPR i had to richen things up to correct the tune and that was it, If i didn't mention i'mno on 1000cc injectors running E85 ( i went and ate mid post so i fogot some of wht i wrote already LO )

I would HIGHLY ADVISE some good engine management, it's really the key to making a hi-perf engine last when being pushed, the ECMlink V3 will even allow you speed density i believe, this would lead to getting rid of an ugly, somewhat heavy and weird shaped MAF tht makes you buy and expensive filter and keep the thing in the engine bay wher it only gets hot air (not my idea of good)

Well, i'm tired as hell nad have laudry to do.. if somthing i said didn't make sense or you want o ask me more, feel fre to PM me, I'm not an expert but i'm wellversed in fuel management systems ingeneral ( not so much DSM specific, but i have done quite a few of them as well over the years)

EDIT: I would like to state tht i did get a new 255 only because i though the HP model would flow more because i was running out of fuel on the e85, and since i didn't need it ( bigger fuel lines and a better filter to rail fixed my lean problems). I'm actually selling and isntallin gthat same 9 year old pump in a car tomorrow, he knows it's used and i'm confident thteven after all i've put it though, i'm still giving him a warranty against the pump's defect (if here happens to be one or it fails) that's how confident i am in that pump.. Gonna use the money to buy another 255HP to pai up in my dual intank pump setup (the low pressure and high pressure didn't work well together) in the midrange one would just pump fuel back through the other until you got wide open adn could actually consume the fuel mas that was being provided

 

[ApexVIII]

Actually Maperformance has them on sale for $75 right now. But if youre on a tight budget evo pumps can be had for as cheap as $30

+1 a evo pump is plenty for 12's

that and add methanol injection to your list and you will be really happy!

 

[turboglenn]

+1 a evo pump is plenty for 12's

that and add methanol injection to your list and you will be really happy!

Please don't take this as an arguement, i'm just stating a better optin for more power at about the same cost as what you mentioned. He would be MUCH better off (IMO anyway) to spend the alky ijection kit moeny and some of what was saved if he doesn't build the bottom end. And instead buy bigger injectors, 1000's or more, keep the 255 and get the AFPR and a 100 dollar -6 tank to rail line set and go E85...the money saved on by running e85 instead of race gas alone would surely pay fo those parts in the first season in fuel savings over c16, and make more power with less knock...corn power for the MF'in win baby!!!!!!!! I was a skeptic, the like a crack addict first hitting the pipe, i fiend for it everytime i find myself agains't a 50k dollar + sports car and want to show him what's up

And if he gets DSMlink ( or any other stand lone) he can have a e85 map for prowling around town, and then load a pump gas map for road trips or when finding yourself needing gas and not being able to find E85 where your at. I'm not sure if the ECMlink (dsmlink) v2 has this or not, but a lot of new stand alones have a switch that will allow you to change maps without a laptop at all... just program the 2 fuel and 2 spark tables as map sets 1 and 2 anduse a toggle to change between them...probably my favorite feature of my new haltech (old haltech i had didn'thave it so i tricked sensors to cut the extra fuel out when going back to pump...problem with that was you had to pick one sensor that had the range needed and then fool it with either a dead short or an open circuit and program the cell it goes into on default to globally trim the calues to where they are needed for "X" fuel whe you change

 

[Fryertuck75]

I want to thank you guys again for the in-depth replies! By what the majority of you are saying, i will go with stock internals. But i do want to still freshen it because it has 130,000 miles on it, and loud lifter noise for about 2 minutes after start up. I will then take the money I save from not buying forged internals, and look into a better tranny. also, what is all involved, when installing a gm MAF with DSMlink?

 

[nitromaxx14]

i ran a 12.5@111 on a 100% internally stock 7 bolt no head studs no cams nada. e-bay 50 trim and all supporting mods DSM link, i drove the car 105 miles to the track ran a string of 12 sec passes then drove it home