Project Superman: '90 Talon - building my first drag race car

[Slippi84]

Don't set a budget. If your in a financial state where you have play money or can save then your good to go and however long it takes it takes. Always be on the look for good deals and part outs and figure out your hp goals and pick a turbo and engine setup and build around that. I picked up my hx52 right after my car after tons of reading research and experience with past turbos and setups. Then I looked at where the hx52 shines and then build my car to compliment that. You also have to keep in mind where the car will be used street or strip mostly too. A lot of people on here would be shocked if they knew how much I spent total considering how much I have picked up so far.

 

[Superman]

Ok, I finally figured out the pics situation. The tear down begins next. Let me start off by saying that this car is very clean. No rust, few dents, good paint, no mods (just a boost gauge), it even has AC. My street car doesn't even have AC. This should be a good platform.

 

[Superman]

First off nice car, and as said above it looks like you have a good stating point. No ABS will save you some work as well and it doesn't look like anyone has been hacking it up before you, i looked at a lot of cars that were before i found mine that was relatively clean and un hacked. Although my car is still going to be occasionally street driven i feel like I can relate some ways to you build. I do my work in my friend's garage where i now keep my MAC tool box and what not. If i had my own garage i would do a full tear down and then clean and repaint stuff and reassemble with the needed stuff.
If you have a tow rig and are willing to designate your talon for track use only you can get rid of a lot more stuff which will save you weight which will go faster easier. IE: run exhaust out of bumper and drop the heavy exhaust, you can cut a lot of metal out of the car including from the wheel wells, run only one light weight race seat, no heat ac or ducting, no stereo etc, light weight wheels and tires and anywhere you can save rotational mass. I think you have a great layout plan of what to do and with the right parts, tunning, and driving you can do it. Like said before, there is tons of info to research through this site so $ is usualy the biggest set back for those that are not too lazy to finish their projects. Good luck and lots of updates with pics please. I probably speak for many of us when i say that these project builds give me motivation to do more work to my street car. I'm only working Part time so $ keeps me for progressing as much as i like. Also i'm married and the wife does require me to spend a lot of time that would other wise would be with the car, but i am happily married and wouldn't have the car with out her support. Good luck and update us!

Thanks for the advice. This will be a drag race car. This car will not be driven in the streets. That means everything must go. I have a truck to tow it with also (just have to rent a U-haul car transport when going to the track). Money may be a set back if I lose my job or something like that. But there is nothing I can do about that. Also on a side note, I am glad you are happily married. (You don't hear a lot of guys talking that way.) Once again thanks for the feed back.

 

[Superman]

I can offer real good advice on these things. First off what you want to accomplish can't be done in one year for the next SO. Second don't set dates, there is no point, do what you want to do, do it right, and when it is done, it is done. Third, you have to have a budget set, you say TBD, not good enough. You have to say okay I am looking at spending at least 15-20K for a 9 sec dsm... yea there is a lot of POS junkers out there that go fast, but if you want to do it right plan for at least those amounts. Built motor 3-5K shep tans and goodies 3k, turbo set up 2k, FMIC 1k, paint 3-5k the list goes on and on, suspensions, tires, wheels, ect. Last, make sure you have a place you keep this vehicle with lots of extra room for parts and makes sure you won't have to move it. If you answered No to any of these things, just put a 16g on it and have fun, projects are frustrating, time consuming, money pits, hence the reason there is a new "project part out" on the trader every other day. If this sounds like fun....

Later Dr Turbo

I agree with you regarding not setting a deadline. There is no need to rush. I also agree with the budget. I figured it would take about 15-20k; minus the paint job (go fast, look good later). I have a garage to store the car and do all the work. I also have room to store the parts. This is my first build, so I will just see how far I can get; no pressure. I am having fun just tearing the car apart (pics coming soon). Thanks for the advice.

 

[Superman]

Don't set a budget. If your in a financial state where you have play money or can save then your good to go and however long it takes it takes. Always be on the look for good deals and part outs and figure out your hp goals and pick a turbo and engine setup and build around that. I picked up my hx52 right after my car after tons of reading research and experience with past turbos and setups. Then I looked at where the hx52 shines and then build my car to compliment that. You also have to keep in mind where the car will be used street or strip mostly too. A lot of people on here would be shocked if they knew how much I spent total considering how much I have picked up so far.

Regarding engine and turbo setup; I am staying with the 2.0 motor and I would like to use the GT42 or something in that range. I am still doing my research; but I really like the GT turbos.

 

[outlawdsm]

Do everything except buy the turbo and exhaust manifold. Build the motor, get your tranny done, cage, ect. Get it to run 11's on the stock 14b, that will help you get it sorted and learn a lot of the hands on lessons you need to learn.

Also don't bother with drag radials, they are heavy and you will break more drivetrain pieces with drag radials than with a set of slicks. Plus the slicks weigh much less.

 

[TSimage]

There is so much that you need to understand. A lot of people will give you advice on how to build a car that they themselves have no idea how to build. Beware. A majority haven't even touched 11s let alone 10s and in almost all cases, never 9s.

DO set a budget, if you don't you'll hate yourself in the end. Having a set budget allows you to forcibly make yourself more patient. If you don't care how much you are spending than you will tend to make more rash decisions. A lot of other guys don't have budgets because they have no idea what they are doing and because of that couldn't put together a budget if they had to.

Understand that there are MULTIPLE ways to skin a cat. Guys are running 9s with 35r sized turbos now so more or less we need to understand what are your goals. Track only? Boost only no nitrous? Street car? Etc etc. The GT line of turbos are dinosaurs. Look towards the new pairings that other companies have, just about everything on the market it cheaper and better than a Garrett turbo. Don't even touch a 42r unless you want to use spray.

Next you need to weigh all options whether it be drive train, engine displacement etc. For example, with the advancements in Auto technology automatics are the way to go. They are stronger, faster, more consistent, cheaper, and break less stuff. Along with that they require a lot less maintenance and less additional parts numbering the thousands upon thousands of dollars saved.

If you are going with E85 it will require a much more elaborate fuel setup. Dual fuel rails, larger feed lines etc. (There are pros and cons for everything remember) If you are looking for a block, there is no harm in finding a built one for sale, just make sure you have a local shop go over it just to be sure, that way all guesses are out the window. If you have to ask if a certain part should be replaced, then replace it. Never cheap out on small parts, those are normally the failure points of any build. Don't just replace half your pulleys, not just use the middle ranged bearings, do yourself a favor and buy the better part the first time.. BUY IT ONCE. Don't do that "I'm buying this then I'll get the better version later" that's the dumbest point of reasoning I have ever heard and there are many guilty of it.

Leave room in your budget for safety equipment. I have had to counsel many guys who underestimate the amount of money that is required for your personal and automotive safety equipment. Next remember that sh*t WILL break.. Have an extra buffer for repairs. Next is topping off.. aka finishing touches. These parts will nickle and dime you. Bolts, relays, hoses, fittings, wires, etc. Oh and SEARCH! Most of the question you probably plan to ask i here can be answered by showing some initiative and doing your own research. That will insure that you fully understand why you are making the decisions you are making rather than doing them simply because someone else told you to.

Looking forward to see some progress. Start with stripping that thing of every single part you wont be using. And of course that varies depending on if you plan to use it as a street car, during the winter or completely track only. Then again running e85 on a vehicle that's purposely made for the track isn't a very smart thing to do...

 

[leepen]

Congrats on posting pictures..your welcome...I agree with many peoples post here
1. no time line
2. buy it once
2. no budget..hence number 1 and 2
4. research e85

Duel FR on e85 is that 8 injectors ???..what duel pumps yes. Simple thing about e85 it take 30% more fuel. not taking into account timing. I am the nickle and dime part of my reserection. and figure to spend atleast a grand more..good luck

 

[Slippi84]

There is so much that you need to understand. A lot of people will give you advice on how to build a car that they themselves have no idea how to build. Beware. A majority haven't even touched 11s let alone 10s and in almost all cases, never 9s.

DO set a budget, if you don't you'll hate yourself in the end. Having a set budget allows you to forcibly make yourself more patient. If you don't care how much you are spending than you will tend to make more rash decisions. A lot of other guys don't have budgets because they have no idea what they are doing and because of that couldn't put together a budget if they had to.

Understand that there are MULTIPLE ways to skin a cat. Guys are running 9s with 35r sized turbos now so more or less we need to understand what are your goals. Track only? Boost only no nitrous? Street car? Etc etc. The GT line of turbos are dinosaurs. Look towards the new pairings that other companies have, just about everything on the market it cheaper and better than a Garrett turbo. Don't even touch a 42r unless you want to use spray.

Next you need to weigh all options whether it be drive train, engine displacement etc. For example, with the advancements in Auto technology automatics are the way to go. They are stronger, faster, more consistent, cheaper, and break less stuff. Along with that they require a lot less maintenance and less additional parts numbering the thousands upon thousands of dollars saved.

If you are going with E85 it will require a much more elaborate fuel setup. Dual fuel rails, larger feed lines etc. (There are pros and cons for everything remember) If you are looking for a block, there is no harm in finding a built one for sale, just make sure you have a local shop go over it just to be sure, that way all guesses are out the window. If you have to ask if a certain part should be replaced, then replace it. Never cheap out on small parts, those are normally the failure points of any build. Don't just replace half your pulleys, not just use the middle ranged bearings, do yourself a favor and buy the better part the first time.. BUY IT ONCE. Don't do that "I'm buying this then I'll get the better version later" that's the dumbest point of reasoning I have ever heard and there are many guilty of it.

Leave room in your budget for safety equipment. I have had to counsel many guys who underestimate the amount of money that is required for your personal and automotive safety equipment. Next remember that sh*t WILL break.. Have an extra buffer for repairs. Next is topping off.. aka finishing touches. These parts will nickle and dime you. Bolts, relays, hoses, fittings, wires, etc. Oh and SEARCH! Most of the question you probably plan to ask i here can be answered by showing some initiative and doing your own research. That will insure that you fully understand why you are making the decisions you are making rather than doing them simply because someone else told you to.

Looking forward to see some progress. Start with stripping that thing of every single part you wont be using. And of course that varies depending on if you plan to use it as a street car, during the winter or completely track only. Then again running e85 on a vehicle that's purposely made for the track isn't a very smart thing to do...

I'm don't want to clutter this thread but 1rst off you don't tell a guy who is just getting into modding a dsm to swap his 5spd to a auto

Second I have not seen any 9sec cars in your stable so to speak of others advice as if you have been to highest mountaintop and back is hypocritical. You bought your car as a shell with all the saftey things and fabricating done which might have cost you a nice chunk of change and your engine you had left over from a previous build you changed your mind on.

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT set a budget. Doing so will cause you to skimp on things to save a buck and stay under a number that means nothing. The RIGHT WAY to do it is to figure out exactly what you need to make your car run the way you want and figure out how much it's worth vs how much it cost and try and find a deal on it, but no matter what don't settle get that part not a part close to it because it fits your budget

Last but not least you DO NOT need two fuel rails to run E85. My car will be running off E85 with 4 1650 blue max injectors which will supply plenty of fuel to get into the 9s.

Take everything people tell you on here including myself with a grain of salt. None of us know it all but some of us guess more than others.

 

[Highbooost]

Okay, you have to set a budget, if you don't you will be the next part out. If you only have so many bucks in the bank, than that is all you can afford which will dictate what parts you can buy, it is easy to say don't set a budget, ok if you are rich, I mean money is not an issue or will be in your life than fine, if your normal set a budget, cars are stupid exspenisive your average 9 sec evo cost around 40-50K, that is a lot of money up front. If you can't afford it don't buy it. The difference between a HTA setup and a Shearer 42r setup is about 3k, budgets matter. Also if you can't budget, or don't know how to, or don't know what parts cost, then you shouldn't be building a race car! I don't know how to stress this any more, there is ALWAYS something more than what you think, whether it be parts, money, fabricating, etc.

Later Dr Turbo

 

[Gooberlog]

Having a budget is a tough topic when working with a dsm.
BUDGET: You might not reach your goals with in your budget, some of the little things do cost a lot, things come up unexpectedly, if you can't afford your goals with in your budget you may give up after spending lots of time and money and then you will loose tons of money when you part it out.
NO BUDGET: Not having a budget means that your car will just require you to be very patient, If money was not an issue and you had plenty of time for your car then you could knock everything out in a year or less. Most of us live in the real world and only have a certain amount of money for our cars though, so you buy parts and send out parts for machining etc. as you can afford it. If you don't set a budget, you will just have to be patient and very savvy when buying your parts. You can buy lots of quality new or like new parts for good deals on here ex. 1GDSMLINK V2 for $350 used as apposed to $700+ new. Or buying a built long block that may match your goals for $1,800 when it probably cost the guy originally $3500+. Like said above, do it right the first time and don't cheap out on parts if your looking to make a fast car. I'm some what content with having a quick street/strip car for now so i have set a modest e/t goal instead of using a budget.

With these factors in mind, the key things to remember are: What do you want the car to run?, what will it take to get there?, no matter how much you think it will cost plan on spending about 50% more than that, PATIENCE is required in a build like this. Also if you are learning the automotive trade, this will be a great lesson in a lot of things. I did my first clutch and timing belt on a awd dsm and that gave me so much confidence with everything else working on cars. If you do your own labor on your car, you will save sooooo much money, get more experience, and when something fails you will me much more likely to diagnose it.

I think your car is very clean and with a wash and wax i think it would be a very presentable race car in the end with out pricey paint and body work. Always have a back up plan. I got let go from my job of 7 years and was out of work for 2months and now i'm working 6 days a week but it's considered "part time". Good luck and get dirty.

 

[Slippi84]

I am not rich and very much normal and with no sponsors what so ever and I attacked my build like this I want to run 9's this is the setup I think best fits my needs/wants what else am I going to need to make it happen. It's as simple as that. It may take me a year it may take me 3 but I will not compromise what I want to do because it doesn't fit my budget at that set time. My talon is not my dd so it can sit till it starts to grow weeds no rush. Patience is what you need not a budget. If you have income you can save if you can save you can afford anything. How long it takes you to get it will be different from person to person but you CAN still get it. Knowing that why set a budget. Knowing if you wait you can get the part you really want why make a budget and settle on a part you can afford.

 

[Slippi84]

Having a budget is a tough topic when working with a dsm.
BUDGET: You might not reach your goals with in your budget, some of the little things do cost a lot, things come up unexpectedly, if you can't afford your goals with in your budget you may give up after spending lots of time and money and then you will loose tons of money when you part it out.
NO BUDGET: Not having a budget means that your car will just require you to be very patient, If money was not an issue and you had plenty of time for your car then you could knock everything out in a year or less. Most of us live in the real world and only have a certain amount of money for our cars though, so you buy parts and send out parts for machining etc. as you can afford it. If you don't set a budget, you will just have to be patient and very savvy when buying your parts. You can buy lots of quality new or like new parts for good deals on here ex. 1GDSMLINK V2 for $350 used as apposed to $700+ new. Or buying a built long block that may match your goals for $1,800 when it probably cost the guy originally $3500+. Like said above, do it right the first time and don't cheap out on parts if your looking to make a fast car. I'm some what content with having a quick street/strip car for now so i have set a modest e/t goal instead of using a budget.

With these factors in mind, the key things to remember are: What do you want the car to run?, what will it take to get there?, no matter how much you think it will cost plan on spending about 50% more than that, PATIENCE is required in a build like this. Also if you are learning the automotive trade, this will be a great lesson in a lot of things. I did my first clutch and timing belt on a awd dsm and that gave me so much confidence with everything else working on cars. If you do your own labor on your car, you will save sooooo much money, get more experience, and when something fails you will me much more likely to diagnose it.

I think your car is very clean and with a wash and wax i think it would be a very presentable race car in the end with out pricey paint and body work. Always have a back up plan. I got let go from my job of 7 years and was out of work for 2months and now i'm working 6 days a week but it's considered "part time". Good luck and get dirty.

+1

You will never know every little part you will have to buy when building a car right so setting a budget based on what you THINK you will need will almost always lead to suprise and disappointment. Of course unless you purposely have some over the top budget which kinda takes away the whole point of having one in the first place.

 

[Gooberlog]

I am not rich and very much normal and with no sponsors what so ever and I attacked my build like this I want to run 9's this is the setup I think best fits my needs/wants what else am I going to need to make it happen. It's as simple as that. It may take me a year it may take me 3 but I will not compromise what I want to do because it doesn't fit my budget at that set time. My talon is not my dd so it can sit till it starts to grow weeds no rush. Patience is what you need not a budget. If you have income you can save if you can save you can afford anything. How long it takes you to get it will be different from person to person but you CAN still get it. Knowing that why set a budget. Knowing if you wait you can get the part you really want why make a budget and settle on a part you can afford.

Well said Slippi and btw, i've been following your build and you do great work. Superman this guy should be a role model while doing your build, check out his thread

 

[twicks69]

I agree with you regarding not setting a deadline. There is no need to rush. I also agree with the budget. I figured it would take about 15-20k; minus the paint job (go fast, look good later). I have a garage to store the car and do all the work. I also have room to store the parts. This is my first build, so I will just see how far I can get; no pressure. I am having fun just tearing the car apart (pics coming soon). Thanks for the advice.

I can try to give a bit of advice. Please take it at its value and PLEASE...no AUTO vs. 5-speed shit-talking.

With that said....


*Do a realistic engine buildup -- off the shelf rods and pistons will work fine. A good set of Crower or Eagle rods with some Ross pistons will do more than enough for you with the stock crank. Use Mitsu or Clevite bearings -- they are decent quality.

*If you are intending on maximizing your setup by running greater than 35psi, I would strongly suggest looking at a Garrett GT4088R, or a Borg Warner S362 or S366. All of these turbos will be capable of producing over 700AWHP with a good tune and a quality setup. Don't go too big, as it will only require a substantial increase in money required to complete the job. If you stick with a 40R-sized or equivilant turbo, you can utilize 2.5" IC piping without any flow restrictions.

*Go with a quality FMIC core. I would recommend the PTE large core -- 24"x12"x3.5" with PTE cast end tanks.

*A 1G unported cylinder head with stock-sized stainless steel valves, bronze valve guides, Supertech dual springs (or Kiggly beehives), and a good set of HKS 272/272 cams will be plenty fine. You can go a bit larger on the cams, but I would suggest only doing so if you intend on going to a 2.3L stroker setup. As well, a 1G throttle body will work just fine. ARP L19 head studs torqued to 110 ft/lb and a Mitsubishi MLS head gasket are mandatory for 35+psi for reliability.

*Get a quality sheet metal intake manifold. I suggest the Beyond Redline SMIM as it worked AWESOME with my experiences on my GT4088R setup. Please use the search function on this website to find my technical writeup I made describing the details of the manifold along with its gains.

*If you intend on running E85, please understand the limited availability of the fuel. Just because it is cheaper doesn't mean crap. IF you intend on running E85, and you think you are going to do 700AWHP+, you will need a substantial fuel setup. As well, you will need a standalone EMS to make it most effective; especially if you are running staged injectors. I would recommend the AEM EMS for tuning. If you go with a single rail of injectors, you will want to look at the FIC Bluemax 1650's, and run them using a Walbro 255HP in-tank pump with a Walbro 255HP in-line fuel pump and a minimum of -6AN feed line. I would prefer that you ran a Supra in-tank fuel pump and a Bosch 044 in-line fuel pump with -8AN feed line, and a -6AN return line. If you intend on gasoline instead, the Walbro dual pump setup mentioned above with a set of 1000cc injectors will handle 800AWHP without problems.

*Drivetrain.... Speaking from experience...I would push you toward doing an IPT automatic and a torque convertor built for your turbo setup to get the proper stall. This will be substantially cheaper than all the manual transmissions you WILL break. Trust me, I know. That is why I rebuild my own, and I still have spent ALOT of money in the last 7 years of racing my DSM. If you plan on sticking 5-speed, plan on a Stage 3-equivilant Shep transmission OR a dogbox (Shep and Magnus both make quality dogbox gearsets at a fairly decent price -- STARTING AT $6100 for the gearset and center diff with 5th gear and shift forks -- not including a transmission case or anything else). The Shep Stage 3 transmission with a 4-spider center differential using a Beyond Redline 4-spider Chromoly cross shaft will be the strongest cross-shaft on the market that can handle the power without failing. Trust me, I have used them all, and this is the only one that has handled years of MY abuse at ~700TQ at the wheels. You still will have axles, and a twin-disk to pay for, so set aside another $1700 for those (front axles, clutch, clutch fork and TOB). Since you are a 1G, I would run upgraded rear axles OR have a damn good suspension setup. The automatic transmission will last longer, be cheaper in the long run, and will be substantially more consistent allowing you to run 9's on less HP and less TQ. Get a scattershield also.

*Suspension. Get quality coilovers. Heck, at least KSport Kontrol Pro coilovers and then purchase a set of coilover spring thrust washers from a circle track racing shop, and a set of 600# HyperCoil springs for the rear. Make sure all the bushings and joints, etc. in your vehicle is up to the task of surviving -- especially your rear differential mounts. You will also want a way of adjusting your camber, so a standard Ingalls rear camber kit, and a set of front camber plates will work. I believe that the KSports for the 1G application come with camber plates. Also invest in quality polyurethane side motor mount bushings, and get aluminum front/rear mounts, OR at least a rear solid mount. Engine/drivetrain movement will be the key thing you want to stabilize to reduce broken drivetrain parts.

*Brakes. TCE Performance 12.2" x 0.81" directionally vaned rotors with Wilwood Forged Superlite 4-piston calipers and some stainless steel lines with Wilwood "D"-pads for the front, and a set of EBC Green pads on the rear with stainless steel lines will support your vehicle. If you plan on sticking manual, get a staging brake, or make sure you have a good e-brake that you can preload with. If you have an automatic, get a linelock. If you want lighter rotors, get Wilwood scalloped 12.2"x0.81" rotors. This rotor/caliper combination will clear a 16" rim and will be enough to stop you from 160mph if the parachute fails.

*Ignition. COP setup with 300M or Intrepid coils, NGK BR8ES (up to 35psi or so) or BR9ES (up to 50psi or so) plugs depending on your boost levels, gapped at 0.028". No fancy ignition box is required -- at least when running on high-octane race fuel like VP Q16 -- I cannot say anything about ignition requirements for E85, as it is most certainly not always 85% ethanol; it varies quite a bit as there is substantially less quality control and consistency with this fuel when being compared to a real race fuel like VP Q16.

*Tires. I would recommend staying away from drag radials as the sidewall is very stiff and WILL break drivetrain parts. Get some Hoosier QTP's in 26"x9.5"x16", and some 16"x7" aftermarket light rims. I would recommend the Rota Sub Zero's or Slipstreams as they are very cheap and good enough quality. These parts will help reduce your unsprung mass and will reduce drivetrain breakage. Be sure to use metal valve stems as this is a NHRA requirement.

*Weight. Gut the crap out of your car if you are intending on making it a real race car. Get it as light as possible, and do a quality/NHRA legal 10-point roll cage with parachute and window net. Get the car as close to 2400# as possible -- or less.

*Safety, safety, safety. Do it right, don't skimp, and take your time. It is your life depending on it. Get a quality fire suit, helmet, gloves, shoes, nomex socks, nomex underwear, neck collar, window net, a 3"-wide 5-point harness (I would recommend the RCI Platinum harness as they carry the longest certification life at 4-years), and a race seat to accomodate the harness.


I do have to say that $15K-20K is very low on the budget to make a reliable mid-9-second car. It can be done, but you better damn well know what you are doing and do it ALL yourself. I am certain that I have spent ten-times what you feel is your low-end of the budget on my car over the years due to setup changes and broken parts. Keep that in mind, as the drivetrain will be the most fragile thing with the 5-speed setup. It will break, it is only a matter of when.

As well, this forum has ALOT of good information and helpful members on it that do have experience in what you are trying to do. Use the search function as much as possible, and read as many forum posts as you can, or until your eyes bleed. When they stop bleeding, read more. Most of the members that have been-there/done-that will tell you to start out with more realistic goals. I do agree, as it has taken me years to get where you want to get, and it has come at the price of alot of time and money invested along with doing it all myself. It is rewarding, but also very, very expensive.

Good luck with your buildup!

 

[Slippi84]

Take twicks words to heart he is a trusted and very knowledgeable tuner.

I"m not gonna keep feeding the 5spd auto debate as it goes no where but keep this in mind a lot of the guys on here including twick will tell you that auto's will save you money because stuff will not brake as much and it's more consistent, but keep the initial install in mind. If you do not know how to do a 5spd to auto swap and don't have a donor auto car to source parts from you will spend a NICE amount of change out the gate just getting into the auto game then on top of that money to have a built auto. Knowing that take the switch to auto advice with a grain of salt. Either way you go with drivetrain the rest of the stuff twick said is spot on, and notice he didn't say get a budget

 

[TSimage]

I'm don't want to clutter this thread but 1rst off you don't tell a guy who is just getting into modding a dsm to swap his 5spd to a auto

Second I have not seen any 9sec cars in your stable so to speak of others advice as if you have been to highest mountaintop and back is hypocritical. You bought your car as a shell with all the saftey things and fabricating done which might have cost you a nice chunk of change and your engine you had left over from a previous build you changed your mind on.

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT set a budget. Doing so will cause you to skimp on things to save a buck and stay under a number that means nothing. The RIGHT WAY to do it is to figure out exactly what you need to make your car run the way you want and figure out how much it's worth vs how much it cost and try and find a deal on it, but no matter what don't settle get that part not a part close to it because it fits your budget

Last but not least you DO NOT need two fuel rails to run E85. My car will be running off E85 with 4 1650 blue max injectors which will supply plenty of fuel to get into the 9s.

Take everything people tell you on here including myself with a grain of salt. None of us know it all but some of us guess more than others.

My car came with the safety euqipment because unlike some other hack job cages people have in their cars, all necessary points were taken into consideration for qualifying said vehicle for safety inspection. My motor I rebuilt myself (Sorry I didn't tear it down in my kitchen though..) and it has gotten lots of changes from what I orginally planned. None of it was from my "last build" The Falco build and the Raven build are one in the same apart from the actual shell and turbo selection. Everything else is the same.

And I don't see where I told him to switch to auto, I gave him an example on considering other options.

I can take your budget comment and rebuttal it with your own build.

You bought a car and planned a build admittingly beyond your knowledge of these vehicles and figured how easy it would be to finish it in time for this years Shootout but after I came in and gave you a run down on your ACTUAL cost and how impracticle your time frame was it seems to me that a couple months later reality has hit and now you are planning to finish for next years shootout. wonder why.

Like I said, the blind shouldn't lead the blind. You haven't ever done a build yourself so I don't see why you are always so quick to the draw to give advice on building anything other than a IKEA bookshelf.

Here's what having a budget accomplishes:

-Gives you a way to controll spending. When I say have a budget I'm not saying sacrafice on quality. I more than most view buying the best part for the job the first time is normally the best way to go (some exceptions) but not having a budget can lead you into over paying

-Gives you a time line. Unless you have an indefintie amount of money if you are sitting arround with no budget you can end up spending beyond your means and pushing your build back further.

-Helps you select the best item for YOU not just based on the first thing you see. The most expensive item isn't always the best, especially when you equate cost vs performance. Sure you get what you pay for 9 times out of 10 but the difference sometimes isnt worth the larger price tag.

-Keeps your build focused You are elss likely to make rash decisions if you have a budget. You are more focused on one particular goal.

-Allows you to shop SMART. If you have found items in a certain price range and caluclated your budget accordingly it keeps you from jipping yourself.

Allows for less headache and problems. Too often people don't udnerstand how much their build is REALLY going to cost, so many underlaying things that when you reach the end of your build have caused many finacial and stressed based problems. Udnerstand that every choice you make in parts will require different planning else where. Such as owning an Auto transmission vs Manual. Running nitrous vs full boost. Stroker vs standard. E85 vs Pump vs Race gas. All your decisions you make will either make the build more expensive or less expensive. Setting a buget will help you narrow down your options and help you build a car you are completely satisfied with and more importantly not in debt over or stressed about.

Golden advice:

Set an end goal for your build, understand how much it will cost. This will allow you to pin point areas of the build that can be beefed up if your pocket book allows and keeps you from ""over building" or "Stretching" your pocket book. When you understand this simple concept of budgeting (not being cheap) you can better understand your end goals. Too often people THINK they know how much they need to spend or what goes into a build but they have no idea. Having a rough budget fixes this problem.

 

[Superman]

ok, the tear down begins!

Seats are out.

Interior coming out.

Trying to get the dash out.

This thing is hard to get out.

Finally got it out.

I am not done, but I hope to make some progress this weekend.

 

[Slippi84]

Like I said in the other thread you talk out the wrong end. I have documented pictures and accounts from locals who know I"m not a fraud like you. You have yet to prove ANY of the stuff you have claimed even though both I and jay have called you out on being fake. How old are you by the way because for a person that claims to have STARTED the wire tuck you look pretty young. Considering the people that started anything in the dsm world have been around here a lot longer than 06. You just admited it yourself you have but one long continuous build that you keep changing your mind on and have never actually finished any of these cars. No matter what the name falco dragon snake you give your car they all end up the same parted out exactly like you say making a budget prevents. It's pretty clear by the fact I don't see anyone saying your overpriced build is a good example of what to do that no one is taking you or your builds pretty serious. I say to you good luck and I may see you at the 2030 shootout if you can have a car done by then.

 

[Slippi84]

ok, the tear down begins!

Seats are out.

Interior coming out.

Trying to get the dash out.

This thing is hard to get out.

Finally got it out.

I am not done, but I hope to make some progress this weekend.

Good start man You going to be keeping the carpet or no?

 

[TSimage]

BUild path.

I too agree with many of Twicks points.

When I was BSing with Jake a while back we all kinda had a game plan for wha tit would take to go big but for less seeing as guys are doing it now with a lot less than many of us back in thte day figured we'd need.

Block:

Any I beam rod will do you good, many have had success with running the MAPerf. rods and due to the realization of the streetability of aluminum rods many (such as myself) are going this route. Your piston choice is a toss up but I'd stay away from anything higher than a 9.5:1 ratio. Many argue what the best piston is. Some swear by the new Weiscos but many loath them. I previously had Mahle and JE pistons and currently run Ross. At the end of the day its more of a tune issue as to weather your pistons will become a weak point. Being able to upgrade to a heavier duty 23mm pin is a nice option. Some of us have machines cranks but the stock crank is more than enough for the job.

Head:

You can do fine with a stock head with at least port matching done to it. Guys like Jake Mongomery, Buschur, even myself have gone fast (11s/10s) without touching the head other than cams. My favorite Cams will always be the FP2s but if you can get your hands on a set of crower springs and 280s you will be fine revving to the area you will need to to get the job done.

Drive train:

Those of us who have EXPERIENCED the difference between owning a 5spd and an auto can assure you that owning a manual will increase your cost 10 fold. a built auto will run you about HALF of what an equally built manual/dog box will run BUT the manual will require much more accessories such as staging brakes (optional) twin disc clutches, axle upgrades, drive shaft upgrades, sometimes transfer case upgrades. An auto requires none of this. Many have ran 9s bone stock consistently, that word is the key. Hell I have taken my stock springs with fp2s up to 9.6K rpms but I don't suggest it to you.

Tires/rims:

I too will second the QTP comment. Not only do these tires allow you to remain in the street class but they offer just enough grip to get you moving but will give just enough to keep the car from biting too hard and causing breakage. Also the 26" tall tire will give you more gearing if you decide to go auto.

Brakes:

Many feel confident with the stock 2 pot brakes. Its up to you if you want to go higher. Running with vented/slotted rotors and light wheels I experienced no fade or warpage with mine personally so this becomes a personal choice

Ignition:

Your stock ignition will work fine. Some suggest a COP but with a COP tuning headaches sometimes occur (some get lucky) but are greatly alleviated with an ignition system kit from AEM or MSD. (Sometimes this is also not needed)

Suspension:

I prefer coilovers but they are over kill.. Check out any koni yellow/ agx + spring combo or even better GC combo and you have a cheap and equally effective alternative.

Intake manifold:

Don't over spend for these fancy intakes, I run a fancy intake only because I got a killer deal on it. Offerings from JMF have been proven time and time again by most of the top guys at a price cheaper than the competition.

Exhaust manifold:

This is your wildcard. You can do top mount for easier access and looks or you can do bottom mount for price savings. Its up to you. Do some research and see which works best.

Turbo options:

This is hard one to determine. I have tried turbos from Garrett, PTE, Turbonetic, Holset, Bullseye, Mitsu, AMS and will be going with a B&W turbo this season. I have gotten away from Garretts due to the technology the other guys are bringing to the table for a much more affordable price.

Holsets will be the cheapest of the bunch but the immediate replacement/king of the strip right now is probably B&W. Slightly more expensive than Holset but its a more proven turbo. A majority of the big guys are and or were running B&Ws for the last few seasons.

Shell:

Youll need it caged and other tidbits such as drive shaft loops, tranny shrouds, harness, window nets, chutes and other safety equipment cant be forgotten. Also your choice of a fuel cell or sumped stock tank will also alter your budget and need of safety equipment. Gut at least the back and the passenger seat. Racing seats will save you upwards of 60lbs alone. There are many thread one well known on the "other" board specifically centered around weight reduction.

Personal Safety:

Full fire suits, shoes, collars, gloves, etc. will be needed. This is the area people forget and it can add up quick. A quick search will show you all the specifics.

Fuel:

Unless its a street car I would suggest you stick to tried and true racefuel. Going E85 will require much more fuel intake and is a whole new beast to tune. You will have to run no less than %150 of the setup you needed for regular fuel to make the same gains. This means bigger injectors (or more of them) bigger fuel lines, bigger pumps. e85 is an excellent option for a street beast but an unwise one for a full time track car.

$15K is an easy number unless you do a majority of the work yourself. Keep in mind that labor alone can double a projects cost. Apart from your motor and cage I would suggest fabricating everything else on your own.

 

[TSimage]

Like I said in the other thread you talk out the wrong end. I have documented pictures and accounts from locals who know I"m not a fraud like you. You have yet to prove ANY of the stuff you have claimed even though both I and jay have called you out on being fake. How old are you by the way because for a person that claims to have STARTED the wire tuck you look pretty young. Considering the people that started anything in the dsm world have been around here a lot longer than 06. You just admited it yourself you have but one long continuous build that you keep changing your mind on and have never actually finished any of these cars. No matter what the name falco dragon snake you give your car they all end up the same parted out exactly like you say making a budget prevents. It's pretty clear by the fact I don't see anyone saying your overpriced build is a good example of what to do that no one is taking you or your builds pretty serious. I say to you good luck and I may see you at the 2030 shootout if you can have a car done by then.

Lets not ruin another thread with your silly banter.

Please don't judge my knowledge by my age or my join date. I don't use this forum very often and most of my builds are more regularly kept upto date on my local boards. I understand that you find your internet prowess to be fulfilling in your lifehense your extremely high post count from someone who has never built a fast car let alone a DSM? WTF I have completed about 4 different builds, my main build I am currently working on has changed once from Falco to Raven. Please have your facts straight before making assumptions.

Bottom line is, you have never built a dsm.

You have never raced a dsm.

You have never built an engine.

So why come in all the threads giving advice on something you yourself have never done. Leave it up to the people who have done work. My build threads, mostly my Blood Diamond/Dirty Birdie build thread was the main focus on DSMTAlk to create a Build specific forum, you got the shock and awe by tearing down an engine in your kitchen by local friends, yay. I got props from guys like Kevin, Shep, Jake, Jeff, Jon from TRE Marco etc on my build threads from a young kid such as building a 10s car from scratch 99% by myself on my own dime in my driveway with hand tools and a little Kragen jack, from 12s 50 trim to 10s 35r to track/thunderhill/buttonwillow built 62-1 build. From fiberglass body work to race transmission maintenance with even Jon from Tre himself personally chiming in. It got to the point a new forum section was made, remember there are forums and a life outside of Tooners.

You'd be correct, I junked/tried and disbanded more ideas than you will ever do on your own. So again, don't make this a my build vs your build or a me vs you thing neither one is worth the hassle, its addmittingly gotten out of hand. Lets not ruin another thread with this childishness. It'd be another page of me talking about my personal experience and you talking about what you read on the forums...

To the OP thats a great start, if it is a drag only car start ripping out that heater core and lose the AC as well. If this is a ABS equipped vehicle junk that as well. I can link you to my old DB build thread that will give you some good insight on whats needed to do the task. Keep up the good work and be ready for the headaches. DSMs are a love hate thing .

 

[Superman]

Thanks for all the advice guys. Tsimage, slippi84, Gooberlog, tricks69, outlawdsm, and all the other guys who posted; you guys are great. This information has been very helpful. I plan on staying with the 5spd. I know you break more parts, but I like shifting. I am staying with the 2.0 motor. I will be doing all the work myself except for the cage, tranny, and head work. It won't be easy, but it will save me a lot of money. More updates to come.

 

[Dsmj89]

Good luck with the build my friend. Sad to see though that a car with a/c and clean interior will be stripped, but if it's what you really want to do then by all means i wish you the best of luck.
Just be patient, search around a lot for good deals, and most of all i wish you lots of patience.
What are your hp goals with the car ? What are some mods you will be doing first to it ?

 

[Slippi84]

Your right I will need a set of boots if your BS gets any higher in these threads. I guess those cars in my profile just assembled themselves. Forget the fact that I have built both 4g63's and a 420a you with your YEARS of experience are the greater man and builder. Despite the fact that no one has ever seen proof of such said things just pictures of unfinished cars. You would be best to just stop talking because no one here believes any of the crap your flinging around. Hey we're all reasonable men show us proof and I will gladly shut up. You ran 12's then 10's then built a 9 sec car according to you so you should have atleast ONE time slip right??? Post a 10 sec time slip that's yours or point me to a thread where you posted a picture of one and I will gladly go. Last time I checked whenever someone on this site runs no matter how slow the post it in their profile as to how fast they went.....funny you haven't wonder why?????