Project 40MPG TSi

[KGB Pilot125]

Anyone think its possible? I have never driven a turbo FWD before but I have a spare 93 2.0 FWD just sitting on the side of the house. Its in great shape both inside and out only problem is it broke a timing belt I picked it up for 500 bucks to rip out the intierior and the wiperless wing for my 91 AWD but now that I gave it to my sister for a winter beater I am kinda missing working on a DSM. This might be a total waste of time but I get paid .485 cents a mile for work and drive close to 40k miles a year. If this can get close to 40 that would be twice as good as my 4runner. EPA estimates the 93 gets 26 but they also esimate my AWD gets 26 so something isnt right. I have recorded a best of 30.4 in my AWD and an average over 3 months of 27. this is all with no tunning tools. and on the dyno the AF never went above 11.1

Thoughts, critisism, praise?

 

[Mr Peepers]

Just unhook your wastegate arm. You'll make 1-2psi max. Poor mileage on a good running car is more of a right foot problem than a mechanical situation though.

You'll get 5-10 psi on average by redline but it sure will take a long time to get there

I don't get the need to rig things to make you not boost when it's all up to your right foot as tkelly27 said. It's hard, I know, but getting a DD that's embarrassingly slow helps

 

[zippyshoe]

I'm not sure if this will get you to 40 mpg, but here are few ways I can think of to improve your existing mileage:

1. Verify your tires are inflated to the proper pressure.
2. Avoid cruising at high speeds (wind resistance becomes a factor).
3. Reduce your vehicle weight.
4. As said before, stay out of boost as much as possible - This is easier to do with a large, laggy turbo.
5. In the case of manual transmissions, shift at lower RPM's.

Also, if you have a fuel controller, you can reduce your open-loop/WOT fuel consumption a bit by leaning it out from the factory-rich AFR (9.5:1) to somewhere around 11:1.

 

[Spln_Hrd]

I suggest a larger turbo than a 16g or at least getting the turbine wheel clipped.

Call up ffwdconnection and get a butcher crank. Underdrive pullies. A/C elimination(whole system). Convert to manual rack and ditch p/s. Light flywheel, wheels, rods, pistons.

Hotter thermostat helps to because less energy is released through the radiator.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

To the OP... are your intentions to build a bad ass, high HP DSM that you can drive daily and get 40 MPG?? Or... to just get something that will allow you to get 40 MPG.

Depending on your answer, it might be better to invest the money in a Ford Festiva instead of trying to build a DSM that has a huge turbo on it (which will require fuel mods most likely) and tweak it to get 40 MPG's.

Then again, depending on your answer, maybe it's best to build that DSM that you can convert to a badass 'strip machine with the flip of a few switches. :shrug?:

 

[tkelly27]

I suggest a larger turbo than a 16g or at least getting the turbine wheel clipped.

Call up ffwdconnection and get a butcher crank. Underdrive pullies. A/C elimination(whole system). Convert to manual rack and ditch p/s. Light flywheel, wheels, rods, pistons.

Hotter thermostat helps to because less energy is released through the radiator.

If you stay out of boost, a larger turbo is a good idea. The larger turbine is mainly what you want to keep it from spooling and have better flow. Oh, you have a NT engine, so you have no choice but to stay out of the boost. Wonderful! Maybe a 16g with a 6h turbine if you've got lots of $$ for this project. You've also got higher compression, which is a good MPG booster too.

Smaller NT camshafts, adjustable cam gears, reduce cam overlap. Less of the fresh charge getting sucked/pushed into the exhaust.

ditch the balance shafts

Hotter plugs, advance ignition timing under non-boost conditions. I had a late '80s dodge 2.2, I got an extra 3-5mpg from a 5 degree base advance. It was mainly a performance mod, and I didn't notice any more performance, so I stopped there. It was so slow, and I drove that car so hard, I'm surprised it survived as long as it did.

http://mpgresearch.com/

It's not going to be as fast as one that is built with performance in mind, but starting with a NT short block you can't really expect that anyways. Sounds like a good project.

Do us a favor, try and document your MPG increases for each mod. Are you going to stop @ 40mpg, or keep going?

 

[KGB Pilot125]

I am building this car strictly for the MPG the reason I need a turbo is that 1. I live at 6000 feet aboce sea level and 2. I have to climb at the least 5 passes over 10k feet to get to all my stores. NA 4 cylinders suck at that atlitude, actually anything NA is pretty bad at that altitude. I am going to build a 6 bolt I have in my garage for the car. 9:1 compresion stock cams aftermarket rods and pisons, mild port work to mainly increase efficiency. also I want it to make at least 250 hp at the wheels. all for less than 3500 dollars. I will log every mile and where I filled up and everything else. I currently drive a 97 4runner and am averaging over
20mpg with it, thinking about a scan tool and an AFCII to lean it out during cruise also.

 

[tlikethedrink]

City i average around 20. 25ish highway doin about 80. Thats in Higher Altitude NM.

I remember AZ winter nights goin from Pheonix to Tucson (lower altitude, cold dry nights) with the cruise set at 85... I would get close to 40. It was awsome. That was with minimal concern for MPG. I bet i could pull off a few more MPG doin drastic stuff like No AC, No PS, Lighter Crank Pulley and AF tuning.

But those can lead to a very unpleasant ride. no AC in AZ is nuts. No PS in the city is a good little work out. Underdrive Pulleys I hear lead to electrical problems because the ALT isnt charging as much.
Or even a few more just having a good exhaust and better IC system(i had stock). That was on top octane gas. + im an AT Spyder so im got more drag because of the top and im alot heavier + a 65lb speaker box in the "trunk".

Ive heard of big power cars getting good MPG thanks in part to a turbo. It was in one of those tuner mag's years ago. The top runners were a Supra, MR2 and a DSM was somewhere in the mix too. All above 35MPG, the Supra was 40something if i remember right. They must have been doin some kind of alc/meth inj tho.

My grandpa used to run propane injection to his old Ford supposedly for MPG. He said it worked. It wasnt even a diesel. Anyone do this for power/MPG to a DSM?

High pressure in the tires helps. less drag... lighter wheels will definatley help. TAndrus thats you buddy

Clean Air Filter. pretty much all airflow- intake, header, exhaust, cats and porting helps.

Less Weight. make sure car is clean INSIDE and OUT. 2-3lbs of mud in the fender is no good. Niether is all the Wendys Bags ( a few lbs off the driver wouldnt hurt ;p ) anything you dont need/use or that should be in your car anyways. A CF hood would be a bit too pricey for those pinching pennies for gas. The spare tire can go if your just up and around - KGB Pilot, you might wanna hold on to that spare.

Make sure the car is running all around ok. keep the gas pedal from doin any drastic changes in the RPM range. Gradual is ok, but not too close to redline, normal driving can keep -4k RPMs. A light foot is probably the most effective tool. Driving slow is also your friend. Internals are expensive, and unless your trying to set a DSM MPG record is a goal in life, it wouldnt be worth it. But balance shafts can go, with the accesories if you feel you can live without em.

Drag- get behind cars that are in front of you. I dont recomend anything unsafe, why would you be stressing MPG when your dead right. But semis/trucks and stuff will help you ease by the wind resistance. Some people go crazy with aerodynamics. like blocking off grills, taping gaps in fenders, hood, lights, no wipers, or mirrors, and putting holes in the rear bumber for air to flow smoother. A sheetmetal or even cardboard umm... "belly" would be cool and might be effective. Not very practicle, but im sure along with a lower ride would work too. MYTHBUSTERS said the windows down doesnt affect MPG, but I think it causes turbulant air flow = air not just whizzing by is slowing you down IMO. For the average car, i think making sure all your door seals are good is enough. Like now i hear air coming in from the Top Seal to the Windshield. no water gets in, just air noise, im sure that doesnt help airflow.

Good luck with your project...i hope you break 40's and then some!

 

[Zex4g63]

I don't think it will be a problem. My 2G does 36-37 mpg on highway trips. With a larger turbo the car got better mileage because it would stay out of boost on inclines.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

well its official the GSX left tonight with my sister and so the talon will now have a space in the garage. I am going to drop off the six bolt the week after thanksgiving for a rebuild, and I will start stockpiling parts. I am having a good time right now hypermiling my 4 runner and really look forward to this experiment. I drive quite a bit about 2k miles a month and its all to the same places so testing in the same roads should provide us with some good consistant results.

 

[Mr Peepers]

MYTHBUSTERS said the windows down doesnt affect MPG, but I think it causes turbulant air flow = air not just whizzing by is slowing you down IMO.

Mythbusters

They actually said that having the windows down around town was more effieient than air con, and on the highway etc it was more efficient to have the windows rolled up and air con on.

 

[1slo1g]

Mythbusters

They actually said that having the windows down around town was more effieient than air con, and on the highway etc it was more efficient to have the windows rolled up and air con on.

+1 to that I seen that episode

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

Did anyone see the one about drafting? Following a semi can be GREAT on fuel milage. The closer you draft the better you MPG you get. I'm not saying you should tailgate by any means, but even at distances of 100 ft behind a semi you use something like 11-15% less fuel.

IRC, that episode reported at a following distance of 10 ft. (which is by all standards completely insane!) you use 43% less fuel. Crazy huh!?!

 

[LaserAWD]

I saw that episode, but I think it was 43% less drag. Their fuel economy went from something like 32mpg with no semi up to 44mpg at 10ft.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Despite all my weight reduction and flow mods, my gas mpg is horrible around town driving. Between a bit of fuel pressure over run and a old o2 sensor and the rather quick spooling 16g i have like 15mph gallon city, but on the high way if I stay at a steady pace and with my extended closed loop operation in my chip burn I average about 25mph highway if I stay out of boost, and thats with cruising at about 85-90 mphs... I find staying under 3.5rpms and less shifting and steady throttle gives best mph.
When i floor it will drink reguardless of how much I lean it out at wot....
I have a slight boost leak at the tb shaft seals, and when i fix that and put a new o2 sensor I want to see the difference.

 

[PapioGXL]

I usually average 29 mpg on the highway around 75mph with a best of 31 mpg. In the city, I get 22-24 mpg depending on if I have 92 or 94 octane and how much I beat on it.

I have minimal mods (exhaust, K&N) and am lowered about 1.5" and run 40 psi in my tires on trips.

 

[terminaltsi]

well... i had a 92 fwd tsi that got 36 mpg on the freeway diong about 80 mph. it had 272 cams, pte 50 trim and the usual supporting mods.
the cams and the turbo helped the most. it seemed the cams gave it more air all the time, whil e the turbo kept it from boosting at the slightest uphill grade.
maybe with a similar setup plus some skinny 15" diamante wheels and tires, you could hit 40.

 

[turboglenn]

with my last injectors ( 550's ) i was able to lean my ECU out (haltech E6K ) on the highway via teh fuel trim knob i have mounted on the steering column, and the best i was ever ale to get was around 37 on a 3 hour road trip to KC missouri from omaha. The EGT's were safe and the A/F ratio was sitting pretty stable at around 19:1 while cruising. Now, however with the 720's using the same technique i'm struggling ot get anywhere above 30 MPG.. i say with the right AF's under light load and keeping with a relatively small injector size it could be possible to get near the 40 mark, but it won't come easy, especially if your motor is making any real power..everything that lets in more air is going to require more fuel,so the clsoer to stock that you are ( with the exception of a freed up intake and exhaust track to lighten the load on the engine ) the better your chances are of reaching your goal.

with my trimming down of the fuel on highways i've been able to at least keep mine reasonable with the new injectors, but you will have to remember to give it it's fuel back before you get into it heavily or risk breaking something under WOT

I'm intersted to see how far you can take it wihtout too much hassle , keep this updated with what you come up with

 

[KGB Pilot125]

Stock maf and DSM link or 3 ich GM maf setup fpr blowthrough with translator and DSM link? I know which can make more power but what set up is better suited for daily driving?
Not looking for huge power just 40mpg on a 16G equipped 93 FWD.

 

[Defiant]

You won't be able to get that mileage with that car. Too heavy.

 

[Jst4Cyl]

40 mpg with that out of the way.

I think a 2G MAFS/DSMchip/SAFC is a great solution

 

[tom04841]

Not looking for huge power just 40mpg on a 16G equipped 93 FWD.

The only way you will come even close is to stay out of boost, run a lean burn code, and heavily tune. I still think the best you will do is 30-35

 

[snowborder714]

Don't expect 40mpg with either of these setups (or with any DSM with a turbo for that matter).

The 2G MAF will be the more reliable setup. But, as you said, the GM MAS will be needed if you plan on making 400+ hp.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

If you guys would like to read my other thread here http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273192

If you dont want to read here are cliff notes:

I travel about 35-40k miles a year, I am reimbursed by the company I work for at .485 cents per mile. I will net about 9k on a 4k dollar investment if I can get close to 40mpg. Need a turbo due to the altitude otherwise I would go NA. getting into boost is dictated by your right foot.

I think its very possible in a FWD I already achieve 30mpg in a AWD and its not even tuned. There is a member here that has gotten better than 40mpg and still makes a decent amount of HP when he needs to.

again back to the original question, what is more efficient 1G or GM maf both with link or as they say in Idaho which one is "gooder"?

 

[CanadianTSi]

But, as you said, the GM MAS will be needed if you plan on making 400+ hp.

This is not true.

While you will be able to make a little more power using a GM MAS, the Stock 2G MAS has been into the 9's with DSMLink.

 

[snowborder714]

This is not true.

While you will be able to make a little more power using a GM MAS, the Stock 2G MAS has been into the 9's with DSMLink.

Sorry about that. I just found out about the FakeMAF option in DSMlink. I learned something new!