My Tsi project

[Duece McCracken]

I have been lurking here on DSMtuners for quite some time now. Gathering information and learning the ins and outs of my 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD. It's my first turbo car, and the first awd car for me as well. I'm excited to start modding it. Here's the run down so far.

Autometer cobalt Boost gauge
2.5 inch exhaust, might just be a cat-back, i haven't looked, no muffler from previous owner
KN open filter kit
New plugs, wires, and a bunch of miscellaneous maintenance items
Installed the pcv check valve.
New slotted vented rotors all way round
17" rims with brand new Conti extreme contact DWS all way round.


She runs ok, but my t25 is starting to feel weird, and im having spooling issues here and there, like no boost at all under wot when she's kinda cold. Weird things. Probably due to some terrible MBC issues that i brought about. So there are probably leaks and other shenanigans afoot. I'd rather just continue with upgrading versus fixing bugs to parts that are about to be replaced shortly

So i picked up some replacement parts

14b, with all the fixin's
1g BOV and pipe
NXS Bleeder MBC
Parts to build a BLT
New shifter cables with bearings in the ends
A buddy hooked me up with a Turbosmart dual port BOV, but im not sure if im going to run it anytime soon.

I'm waiting for
14b rebuild kit
Evo 9 fuel pump
new turbo gaskets
New exhaust gaskets.

Future purchases.

Wideband
ECMlink
1000cc injectors
Short shifter
FMIC
Tubular exhaust manifold


I do have a few questions

1. Should I bother porting my O2 housing for my 14b?
2. There's no need for an AFPR with the evo pump, correct?
3. What other items should i pick up to make my 14b happen?

I have been looking around, and reading a lot of similar threads to what I'm writing now, just thought i'd get my own personal answers finally, . Thank you all for reading, and DSM's are way too much fun!

 

[zachyd23]

You should port your o2 housing if you have time, mine is ported on my 92 tsi. Also about your 14b conversion, my friend is also currently doing this on his 2g and he needed to get a j pipe.

 

[Duece McCracken]

You should port your o2 housing if you have time, mine is ported on my 92 tsi. Also about your 14b conversion, my friend is also currently doing this on his 2g and he needed to get a j pipe.

I have the time, so I guess I will port it out.

I have the 1g J pipe. As well as all the 1g SMIC piping/hoses. I even have the SMIC from the 1st gen as well. Not that i'm going to use it, but my buddy got a bit over zealous when i told him what to pull off a junk car for me, .

 

[91stocker]

1. Should I bother porting my O2 housing for my 14b?
2. There's no need for an AFPR with the evo pump, correct?
3. What other items should i pick up to make my 14b happen?

I have been looking around, and reading a lot of similar threads to what I'm writing now, just thought i'd get my own personal answers finally, . Thank you all for reading, and DSM's are way too much fun!

1. Yes definitely, some have shown 6-10hp gains from a properly ported o2 housing. Porting the wastegate tunnel in the o2 also helps with more consistent boost control. Another benefit of porting the o2 is better spool up. Pretty nice gains all around especially for the small amount of time involved.

2. No an afpr is not necessary but ensuring you have the proper and consistent fuel pressure is always nice.

3. A set of arp head studs will be needed if you plan to run over 17psi. Also if you plan to push the 14b you will need a fmic. The factory sidemount heat soaks almost instantly when pushing a small turbo.

 

[zachyd23]

1. Yes definitely, some have shown 6-10hp gains from a properly ported o2 housing. Porting the wastegate tunnel in the o2 also helps with more consistent boost control. Another benefit of porting the o2 is better spool up. Pretty nice gains all around especially for the small amount of time involved.

2. No an afpr is not necessary but ensuring you have the proper and consistent fuel pressure is always nice.

3. A set of arp head studs will be needed if you plan to run over 17psi. Also if you plan to push the 14b you will need a fmic. The factory sidemount heat soaks almost instantly when pushing a small turbo.

I agree, heatsoaking is not good. I also would get a cosmetic head gasket when running 16-17 psi or higher.

 

[clipto]

Port your o2 and pick up a 16g 7cm hotside for your 14b, and don't forget tuning software not sure if I missed that in your post.

 

[Duece McCracken]

Looks like im keeping the boost down around 15psi, till i gather funds for the supporting mods to surpass that level.

Im going to pass on the 16g hotside, I dont think i want to find one, or spend the money on it at the moment.

My plan is to run this 14b for awhile, get into tuning, then eventually step up to a evo 3 16g. Then who knows where the madness will end.

New Hg and arp studs, didnt even cross my mind at this stage. Looks like my timing belt replacement just became a hg replacement as well, .

 

[zachyd23]

Yea i'm running the evo 3 16g at 14 psi right now on stock studs/gasket. So i should upgrade soon also.

 

[92 GSR-4]

Yea i'm running the evo 3 16g at 14 psi right now on stock studs/gasket. So i should upgrade soon also.

I've run 25PSI safely on the street with a stock gasket and stock used head bolts. I see no reason to upgrade unless you blow your HG first.... its been working for me!

1. Yes definitely, some have shown 6-10hp gains from a properly ported o2 housing. Porting the wastegate tunnel in the o2 also helps with more consistent boost control. Another benefit of porting the o2 is better spool up. Pretty nice gains all around especially for the small amount of time involved.

2. No an afpr is not necessary but ensuring you have the proper and consistent fuel pressure is always nice.

3. A set of arp head studs will be needed if you plan to run over 17psi. Also if you plan to push the 14b you will need a fmic. The factory sidemount heat soaks almost instantly when pushing a small turbo.

Geez, just got to reading this in-depth and I've got a few issues with the advice.

1. Porting can help total flow, top end, etc. Don't expect a life-changing experience.

2. An AFPR is absolutely mandatory in my book - but only with an upgraded fuel pump - even the EVO pump. The reason is because with a high-flow fuel pump the stock FPR cannot bleed off enough fuel to sustain the factory fuel pressure (43PSI I believe). You will be running too-high of fuel pressure in that case. If you plan to exceed the fuel requirements of the factory pump I would highly suggest upgrading both the pump and regulator. On the factory pump, the stock FPR works fine.

3. A set of ARP head studs would be the last thing on my mind with a 16G or any turbo for that matter. I personally ran my 8.5:1 compression engine at 20+PSI on a 16G and then up to 25PSI with a GT3076R. You'll be fine. Now, if you must remove the head to perform a repair, I'm all for it. I just don't see doing a head job plus the added expense of the T-belt components just to have an engine with head studs that runs exactly the same as before.

 

[zachyd23]

Better to be safe then sorry though. Down the road you might have to do it anyways.

 

[91stocker]

I've run 25PSI safely on the street with a stock gasket and stock used head bolts. I see no reason to upgrade unless you blow your HG first.... its been working for me!

Talk about bad advice...Just wait till your motor blows to upgrade to something that would have prevented the hg failure

You can upgrade to arp's with the "one by one" method and save your original hg. You dont have to separate the head that way. Arp's are only $80 new, makes no sense not to have that insurance. You forget the 7 bolt head studs are also 1mm smaller.

Geez, just got to reading this in-depth and I've got a few issues with the advice.

1. Porting can help total flow, top end, etc. Don't expect a life-changing experience.

2. An AFPR is absolutely mandatory in my book - but only with an upgraded fuel pump - even the EVO pump. The reason is because with a high-flow fuel pump the stock FPR cannot bleed off enough fuel to sustain the factory fuel pressure (43PSI I believe). You will be running too-high of fuel pressure in that case. If you plan to exceed the fuel requirements of the factory pump I would highly suggest upgrading both the pump and regulator. On the factory pump, the stock FPR works fine.

3. A set of ARP head studs would be the last thing on my mind with a 16G or any turbo for that matter. I personally ran my 8.5:1 compression engine at 20+PSI on a 16G and then up to 25PSI with a GT3076R. You'll be fine. Now, if you must remove the head to perform a repair, I'm all for it. I just don't see doing a head job plus the added expense of the T-belt components just to have an engine with head studs that runs exactly the same as before.

1. No shit, did i say it would, nope. Read it again and you'll see i said there is pretty nice gains to be had for free and the maybe 1 hour worth of your time. Its definitely worth doing, specially if its all apart already. You can gasket match the 2g o2 to the standard 2.5" opening that most dp's have.

2. The evo pump only flows 30 lph more then the stock 2g pump. So it will NOT overrun the stock regulator. A 190lph pump will also not overrun a stock regulator. I run a 190 on stock regulator with an aftermarket fuel pressure gauge and can vouch for that. Besides overrun only happens at idle and is not evident at wot.

3. Total rubbish. Just because your motor didnt pop is not just cause to advise people against head studs. You also do not need to separate the head to install arp's. That post is almost negative rep worthy.

 

[92 GSR-4]

91stocker,

Flame on, buddy. But first realize that I never came out and called your advice wrong. But since you attacked me, here's my rebuttal:

First, I would recommend you re-read the OP's first post and realize that he is a new member and is probably on a budget like most DSM'ers. I recommend not wasting the kid's money, but that's just me. Let me break down your garbage attack post.

Talk about bad advice...Just wait till your motor blows to upgrade to something that would have prevented the hg failure

If your HG blows then it likely saved the motor. I'm not sure where you're going with this. Most HG's fail due to detonation. Most engines structurally fail due to detonation (that might be your 17 PSI-on-a-16G limit BTW). I would rather the HG go first. That said, the stock HG can take a LOT of abuse.

You can upgrade to arp's with the "one by one" method and save your original hg. You dont have to separate the head that way. Arp's are only $80 new, makes no sense not to have that insurance. You forget the 7 bolt head studs are also 1mm smaller.

You're absolutely right in regards to this method and I give credit where it's due. They are *cheap insurance*, but so is solid tuning and that is WAY more important than ARP head studs. By the way, why are ARP's "cheap insurance"? Because they are stronger and don't stretch as easy? Okay, well you tell me how many HG's you have seen fail because of head bolt stretch (assuming they are GOOD head studs within spec). Now tell me how many HG's you've seen fail because of detonation/poor tuning. My point exactly. This is probably where you got your 17 PSI limit from.

1. No shit, did i say it would, nope. Read it again and you'll see i said there is pretty nice gains to be had for free and the maybe 1 hour worth of your time. Its definitely worth doing, specially if its all apart already. You can gasket match the 2g o2 to the standard 2.5" opening that most dp's have.

First off, my input was just a comment. I agree with what you originally said because it DOES help. I was commenting on a marginal improvement, not a mind-blowing experience. Your profanity doesn't help your point either.

2. The evo pump only flows 30 lph more then the stock 2g pump. So it will NOT overrun the stock regulator. A 190lph pump will also not overrun a stock regulator. I run a 190 on stock regulator with an aftermarket fuel pressure gauge and can vouch for that. Besides overrun only happens at idle and is not evident at wot.

I'll only give you one piece of advice: you have to have consistent fuel pressure to have a good tune, which is why I recommend an adjustable FPR. I'm not going to comment beyond saying I had a 190LPH overrun my FPR and it caused me all sorts of hell, but that was years ago and perhaps it was an isolated case or had a bad FPR. Either way, you can only gain more control over your motor with an AFPR and that is the key to safely tuning it. By the way, what is your baseline fuel pressure? Be honest.

3. Total rubbish. Just because your motor didnt pop is not just cause to advise people against head studs. You also do not need to separate the head to install arp's. That post is almost negative rep worthy.

Total rubbish? ANYONE can tune past 17PSI on a 16G with a STOCK LONGBLOCK. ANYONE. And if you can't then I know why. I have personally tuned four 1G's and two 2G's past 20PSI with a 16G and one 2G with a 14B. My personal experience with multiple DSM's is far more than I need to know it can be done, but when I know several other people to run past 22PSI on a 16G car and drive it daily solidifies my knowledge. Let's not forget that I safely tuned my car at 25PSI on a GT3076R on 93 octane, and it saw up to 30PSI other times. A good friend of mine had a "junkyard motor" in his car and he ran high 11's on race gas with a 60-1. I later tore that engine down after he detonated a spark plug and chipped a valve and the HG as well as that particular cylinder was fine. Your "17PSI" limit is caused by your inexperience. Anyone who can keep their motor from running absurdly lean can tune past 17PSI with a small-frame turbo. Anyone. If you can't then I would keep my mouth shut about it. Go ahead and bring my post up for negative rep, you will get laughed off this site.

Not to compare stats, but I've been on Tuners since '03 and have 110 posts vs. your 900+ in under two years. I recommend actually getting out there and spending time turning wrenches and tuning rather than keyboard-jockeying, flaming, and picking apart someone else's post just because they do not think the way you do. You might just learn something.

 

[91stocker]

91stocker,

Flame on, buddy. But first realize that I never came out and called your advice wrong. But since you attacked me, here's my rebuttal:

First, I would recommend you re-read the OP's first post and realize that he is a new member and is probably on a budget like most DSM'ers. I recommend not wasting the kid's money, but that's just me. Let me break down your garbage attack post.

Can you say hypocrite? You say $80 arp's are worthless on a boosted motor, then say a $200 afpr is required on a near stock set up running a 150lph fuel pump? Get real man.

If your HG blows then it likely saved the motor. I'm not sure where you're going with this. Most HG's fail due to detonation. Most engines structurally fail due to detonation (that might be your 17 PSI-on-a-16G limit BTW). I would rather the HG go first. That said, the stock HG can take a LOT of abuse.

I dont think you realize the concept of cylinder pressure.

The 17psi was a very vague generalization btw, 17 psi on what a t25 or a hx52. See what i mean. Its like saying the 1g bov will leak at 17psi. Which it probably will without mods.Some have gotten 20+ from them but generally not.

I never mentioned a "limit".

I'll only give you one piece of advice: you have to have consistent fuel pressure to have a good tune, which is why I recommend an adjustable FPR. I'm not going to comment beyond saying I had a 190LPH overrun my FPR and it caused me all sorts of hell, but that was years ago and perhaps it was an isolated case or had a bad FPR. Either way, you can only gain more control over your motor with an AFPR and that is the key to safely tuning it. By the way, what is your baseline fuel pressure? Be honest.

Did you forget my comment that you originally quoted?? Here let me copy it for you.

"2. No an afpr is not necessary but ensuring you have the proper and consistent fuel pressure is always nice. "

Not to compare stats, but I've been on Tuners since '03 and have 110 posts vs. your 900+ in under two years. I recommend actually getting out there and spending time turning wrenches and tuning rather than keyboard-jockeying, flaming, and picking apart someone else's post just because they do not think the way you do. You might just learn something.

Post count means nothing, im a college student. I need something to do during the 4 hour breaks between classes. I've owned 3 dsm's over the last 5 years. My original account goes back to 03' as well, just was over on "talk". Now this isnt an epeen contest here, its about giving out proper advice to a new member. Which you are not.

To say head studs are not needed on a boosted motor, and a 7 bolt non the less, is completely idiotic.

You talk about trying to save the guy money, then why tell him he needs a $200 afpr for a fuel pump that can not overrun. Especially when overrun is as exaggerated as crank walk on these cars. Its only evident on large fuel pumps at idle. So drop the overrun nonsense.

You do realize the 7 bolt head studs are 1mm smaller right? The factory 6 bolt head studs are comparable to the standard arp's. So your experience with 6 bolts does not apply to this situation.

Here read
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...64782-why-7-bolts-need-arps-6-bolts-dont.html

Or

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/278738-will-i-need-arp-headstuds.html

We're talking about timing and cylinder pressure here.

 

[92 GSR-4]

Again you flame with your personal attacks due to lack of wrapping your head around the fact that there are others out there boosting happily (even in 2G's!) without taking your advice verbatim. I might be a hypocrite, but I can produce over 500 crank HP without ARP's...I can't do it without a AFPR, so in many cases, its a $100 (you say $80) waste. I believe I've made my points without losing my composure. The OP should do his research and make up his own mind.

17 is the magical number you gave. You never mentioned cylinder pressure. Either way, there is no "set" or "magical" PSI or cylinder pressure that will cause a HG to blow, and more than likely it will end up blowing due to detonation regardless of having ARP's or not. The advice I'm giving him will help avoid that. Obviously if he has the money to purchase everything I would recommend that route, but I'm sure all of us know what being poor is like especially in college and having limited time to work a job.

I've made my points. If you feel you need to continue being skinned-up you can do it on PM. I feel bad doing this in public.

 

[91stocker]

Again you flame with your personal attacks due to lack of wrapping your head around the fact that there are others out there boosting happily (even in 2G's!) without taking your advice verbatim. I might be a hypocrite, but I can produce over 500 crank HP without ARP's...I can't do it without a AFPR, so in many cases, its a $100 (you say $80) waste. I believe I've made my points without losing my composure. The OP should do his research and make up his own mind.

Did your body kit make up for 200hp of that? Because sorry i call bs on 500hp on stock hg and studs. Most recommend L19's for 500+hp.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/414989-regular-arp-l19.html
How many times do i need to prove you wrong?

Also if you want to go that route, theres a member on here running 10's on the stock regulator. Or people that got 30k+ miles on an ebay turbo. Just because someones car/part hasnt failed "yet" doesnt make it ok.

17 is the magical number you gave. You never mentioned cylinder pressure. Either way, there is no "set" or "magical" PSI or cylinder pressure that will cause a HG to blow, and more than likely it will end up blowing due to detonation regardless of having ARP's or not. The advice I'm giving him will help avoid that. Obviously if he has the money to purchase everything I would recommend that route, but I'm sure all of us know what being poor is like especially in college and having limited time to work a job.

Its been a rule of thumb since forever. Here read, some wisemen and very intelligent and experienced members saying around 18psi is the rule of thumb here. A rule of thumb i've followed with great success.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/306141-max-boost-16g-stock-headstuds.html

The stock hg is not the problem, its the studs. There is no magical limit. Its like saying you can run 15psi untuned. Alot of different circumstances, but its just a general rule of thumb. That is all. You need to stop trying to turn my words around to cover yourself. Can you back peddle any faster?

3. A set of ARP head studs would be the last thing on my mind with a 16G or any turbo for that matter.

Really? Really? Come on man. Please dont give "advice" anymore.

I've made my points. If you feel you need to continue being skinned-up you can do it on PM. I feel bad doing this in public.

Your still wrong, and i hope someone gets in here to clean your nonsense up.

 

[Duece McCracken]

Break it up guys. Geez, . I appreciate the information, but no need to go at each other in my thread.

Replacing the head bolts with arp studs, one at a time, seems like something i would have no problem with. I'd rather not have to crack the hg unless i have to.

An AFPR is something i will eventually look into, there are mixed reviews on how necessary it is for the Evo 9 pump. It will be good to have for the future, but it is a high priced set-up, and is not part of the budget right now.

I'm not drag racing this or anything that abusive anytime soon, its a dd, and im not looking to go balls out right now. Im going to stick with the stock hg, and probably install arp headstuds, i have to do a valve cover gasket anyway.

Im not new to modding cars, so im not expecting any crazy gains from porting my O2 housing, but i can appreciate that the stock design is quite restrictive, and opening it up is well within my means. I have a great relationship with my dremel from lots of other porting jobs, and the o2 housing is sitting on my table, ready to get ported.

Im taking the talon off the road for the winter, , to wrench on her with no rush. My 1994 Jeep cherokee will suffice for snow travel, sadly, and very slowly I might add.


This is in fact my second DSM, I had a 96 NA eclipse, which i kept stock, and beat on. I wasn't going to waste any time or money modifying a NA FWD DSM. My Talon on the other hand is a great platform for modding, so i intend to do so, tastefully and properly(as proper as I can, anyway !).

 

[clipto]

There is nothing wrong with upgrading to arp studs.Just build your car how you want do doesn't matter how much hp you have you can still breakshit even if its built.There is nothing wrong running 500hp on stock block head gasket and head studs besides the fact it can blow...Just save yourself time do some research and play it safe.Just remember you can make all the power you want but without maintanance and saftey you will be looking at your car getting towed on the flatbed.Good luck on your setup...Everyone has there own opinion, but please everyone stop hating just help everyone go fast.

 

[taylor hindman]

I agree with both arguments but thats up to the OP not us. But I belive that the number one cause of engine failure is tunning when coming to turbo cars. Not the head gasket and an AFPR is always nice to have and somthing to upgrade further down the road. And there are videos on just about any video website where the cylinder heads have gotten blown off of the block due to the head bolts or studs not being strong enough. But since he's only looking for ideas and suggestions I say get the head studs and AFPR. And if your on a bugget save up if you cant then you shouldent have a DSM and its never to late to upgrade until you blow up your engine and thats when you upgrade. Also Rather be safe than sorry and the factory head gasket should be fine if you have the head torqued down to spec. And again this is my opinion

 

[Duece McCracken]

Im going to run a 14b at 12-15psi, with a evo fuel pump, The odds of me blowing up my favorite girl, is very slim.

I will do more preventative and better supporting mods before I try to boost more.

I have been researching and lurking here for months now.

This is pretty much my "Intro to turbo swapping" thread.

Im not one to run out and do something crazy without doing my homework first.

Evo fuel pump is in the mail, and will be rewired and installed soonish.

O2 housing is getting ported probably this week.

IM looking for a respectable 14b rebuild kit, any suggestions?
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices
or

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

Or should i seriously stay away from ebay?

Depending on if I sell my spare dsm parts, or my CBR, will greatly influence the speed at which I get my DSm assembled.

 

[clipto]

Im going to run a 14b at 12-15psi, with a evo fuel pump, The odds of me blowing up my favorite girl, is very slim.

I will do more preventative and better supporting mods before I try to boost more.

I have been researching and lurking here for months now.

This is pretty much my "Intro to turbo swapping" thread.

Im not one to run out and do something crazy without doing my homework first.

Evo fuel pump is in the mail, and will be rewired and installed soonish.

O2 housing is getting ported probably this week.

IM looking for a respectable 14b rebuild kit, any suggestions?
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices
or

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

Or should i seriously stay away from ebay?

Depending on if I sell my spare dsm parts, or my CBR, will greatly influence the speed at which I get my DSm assembled.

I made this thread for the 14b people. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/419586-dyno-time.html.When When swaping turbos everyone thinks its ganna be crazy or not that just confused what to do or whats ganna happen.This will get you a real mind on what to exspect.It doesn't really take much for a 14b setup at all.Good luck on the install.

 

[Duece McCracken]

Evo fuel pump is in my possession, Once i pick up the wire, she's going in!

Where do you guys get turbo rebuild kits from?

 

[95AWD6Bolt]

Dont waste your money on a tubular exhaust manifold. The stock 2g manifold will be fine for whatever you will throw at it.

 

[Duece McCracken]

Dont waste your money on a tubular exhaust manifold. The stock 2g manifold will be fine for whatever you will throw at it.

Well eventually i may switch from a mitsu flanged turbo, its very low on the list. I have much more important things to purchase. Im not sure if I will ever get one actually, . I still have to get my 14b running before I think of swapping it out.

 

[91stocker]

Evo fuel pump is in my possession, Once i pick up the wire, she's going in!

Where do you guys get turbo rebuild kits from?

Just send it to this guy

DSM Forums - View Profile: JusMX141

 

[Duece McCracken]

Update

I ported my o2 housing, I removed the "step" and really took out some material.
I have not gasket matched it yet, i was just all about getting rid of that step.

I just rebuilt my 14b, it was quite simple in practice, cleaning everything proved way more intensive than the actual rebuild. Its all assembly lubed, and awaiting install.

I have set aside this weekend to do the turbo swap, it should leave me plenty of time to complete it, and worse comes to worse I will just have to drive my Cherokee till I finish it.

I bought a new dipstick, and all the gaskets i need for the install.

I have a 1g bov and hard intake pipe where it mounts, should i just hack up my 2ng gen stock intake pipe to accommodate the 1g setup? Im talking the plastic pipe with the crappy 2g bov attached. which i dont care about at all. Eventually i will step up to a FMIC, which will be more accommodating to my BOV. but for now i want cheap options for mounting either my 1g bov, or my turbosmart dual port bov.