Priming engine

[Saturdee]

So I have a couple questions regarding engine priming/oil pump priming that I hope somebody could clear up with me.

I followed the following link to prime my oil pump: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...pump-timing-components-already-installed.html

In his write up, he says that it should begine to be hard to pump, and oil will start coming out of the head. Well I felt no difficulty while pumping 5 quarts into my engine through the OFH, and also noticed no oil coming up to the head. I'm wondering if my car being a 2g, and a having a different OFH may have something to do with it.

I then just decided to pull my spark plugs, my engine fuse, and my crank position sensor, and turn the engine over for a few seconds to hopefully build some oil pressure. I do have a mechanical oil pressure gauge, and I cranked it for maybe 3 or 4 seconds at a time, for about 3 times. I didn't want to overdue it because I'm nervous, but I didn't see my oil pressure gauge respond at all. I checked into my head and did notice oil coming up through, so I know it's moving oil throughout the engine.

So here are my questions. Is the reason I'm seeing no oil pressure because I didn't crank it over long enough? If I see oil coming through the head, am I safe to start it, even if my gauge isn't responding? How long did you guys turn your engine over before starting it? Any input would be really helpful, thanks in advance for reading through this.

 

[dsmgst1996]

Your not going to see very much pressure form the couple rpms the starter turns the motor over. If your have oil in your head you are primed fire it up and if you dont see pressure on your gauge with in a couple seconds then be worried and check things .

 

[Saturdee]

Your not going to see very much pressure form the couple rpms the starter turns the motor over. If your have oil in your head you are primed fire it up and if you dont see pressure on your gauge with in a couple seconds then be worried and check things .

So if I see oil coming through the rocker arms I'm set? Anyone else? Yay or nay?

And I'm not doubting you at all, just would like to have as many opinions as possible is all. Thanks for the quick response, I appreciate it.

 

[lauj2gdsm]

do a 30 to 40 sec crank. with your spark plugs out that way you have no cylinder pressure and no pressure on you main bearings.

 

[NHerron]

^Off to a good start I see...

I know you're nervous about the whole oil thing but hey it's not that bad. These engines are pretty straightforward and not too much for special procedure.

General practice is to pack the oil pump full of vasoline etc (during the build of course) so when it comes time to start the engine, it will pick up oil damn quick.

If you packed the pump, lubricated all bearings with assembly lubricant -don't fret about it, just hit the key. Don't freak out just because it hasn't hit pressure within 3 seconds. Think about filter changes, it's the same amount of time and no one even realizes it. But when it's first time for starting, everyone looses their cool.

And the reason you don't see pressure during cranking is there is not enough 'resistance to flow' due to the cranking speed. At that speed the pump only flows 'x' volume and the oil outlets (bearings clearance, rod side clearance etc etc) can dump that volume out as fast as it's coming in. When the volume is increased, the clearances cannot keep up and dump it at the same rate -therefore pressure is built at higher pump speeds.

 

[Saturdee]

^Off to a good start I see...

I know you're nervous about the whole oil thing but hey it's not that bad. These engines are pretty straightforward and not too much for special procedure.

General practice is to pack the oil pump full of vasoline etc (during the build of course) so when it comes time to start the engine, it will pick up oil damn quick.

If you packed the pump, lubricated all bearings with assembly lubricant -don't fret about it, just hit the key. Don't freak out just because it hasn't hit pressure within 3 seconds. Think about filter changes, it's the same amount of time and no one even realizes it. But when it's first time for starting, everyone looses their cool.

And the reason you don't see pressure during cranking is there is not enough 'resistance to flow' due to the cranking speed. At that speed the pump only flows 'x' volume and the oil outlets (bearings clearance, rod side clearance etc etc) can dump that volume out as fast as it's coming in. When the volume is increased, the clearances cannot keep up and dump it at the same rate -therefore pressure is built at higher pump speeds.

Thanks for the informative reply. I took your advice and went ahead and started my car earlier today before work. It started up and I immediately got oil pressure, as you said, and my lifters were/still are extremely loud . I know that will fade though. The only issues I have is a high idol, which drops to about 1500 rpms, then it'll start going up, which that is what I don't really understand. Why would it start up, idle slowly starts to slow down, then it slowly starts speeding up again? Is this an easy fix just by adjusting the BISS screw? Vacuum leak? Any ideas?

 

[dsmgst1996]

do you have a boost gauge ? If so what is it reading at idle . i would not adjust the bss screw that just maskes the problem your having not fix it you can also check your icv to make sure its closed .

 

[NHerron]

I would not recommend adjusting the BISS, its preset from the factory.

High possibility of a vacuum leak. Next would be a bad ISC coil. But throughly check for vacuum leaks first.

 

[Saturdee]

I would not recommend adjusting the BISS, its preset from the factory.

High possibility of a vacuum leak. Next would be a bad ISC coil. But throughly check for vacuum leaks first.

Well I did delete my emissions, but I capped off everything. I'll have to buy a voltmeter and test my ISC.

 

[NHerron]

Have you boost leak tested lately?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

1 : About the priming method - It's a spectacular method. As soon as you see any oil in the head, give it about 2 more good pumps and then reverse the nipple transfer process. (Man that sounds bad saying.) You're good to go from there.

2 : When it comes to the throttle body I am seriously picky on how I set it and take plenty of time in making sure that when I start the car that it won't rev to the moon. As I'm overly confident in my ability to set the TB I'll say the following with the utmost confidence.

A : Loosen the Throttle Cable Bracket by backing the 10mm bolt out about 1 hole turn and push it towards the throttle body to create a tiny bit of slack, ensuring that the cable is not holding the throttle plate open at all.

B : Back the Throttle Plate Stop Screw out until it is not touching the throttle plate at all. Ensure that the throttle plate is closed entirely by flipping/twitching it once or twice.

C : Screw the Throttle Plate Stop Screw in until it -touches- the plate, then count 1 1/2 full turns further. This will just barely open the throttle plate so that it's not closed off entirely.

D : Turn the BISS screw all the way in, bottoming it out.

E : Screw the BISS out from it's bottomed out position 2 full turns.

F : Loosen to two screws (8mm or Phillips Head) on the TPS

G : Using a volt meter, even a cheap one, very carefully turn the TPS while checking the resistance across the TPS. While I do it from memory, I recall them being Pin 2 and Pin 4. (If you get the incorrect pins, the resistance will show 4.xx. This is normal, just move to the next pin as the one you're looking for should be lower than 1.00 unless it is way out of adjustment, which 1.00 is way out anyway.) This resistance should be 0.64. One point above or below is fine - a lot of people have issues with how touchy the TPS adjustment can be.

H : Tighten the screws back down on the TPS and check the pins again to ensure that the number did not change.

I : Move the Throttle Cable Bracket back away from the throttle body to pick up any slack you made in step A, being careful to not open the throttle plate at all with too much tension.

J : Fire the car up. You'll end up adjusting the BISS just slightly as vacuum leaks and throttle body condition will vary from car to car. It's best to do this with a tuning solution, but careful 1/4 turns and giving 5 minutes between adjustment with the car running are absolutely fine, but don't over do it.

 

[Saturdee]

Thanks for the in depth write up, I'll definitely refer to that if need be. For now, I'm going to do a boost leak test before anything, just gotta wait til it comes.

I started up my car again (finally had free time), and let it get to operating temperature and found out I definitely don't have any surge. The idle was high for like 3 minutes (around 2000 or a little below first minute, around 1400 for the rest) and eventually settled around 1100, which is still a little high. It idled smooth. Vac was -15 hg, BUT, when I shut the car off, the needle rests a little above the 0 mark. So I guess I have to either recalibrate it, or buy a new one.

I guess the only thing that is acting up would be the abnormally long lasting high idle upon start up. And what would be my best way to approach dropping the idle down to around 900? Should I use the BSS or avoid it? I keep reading mixed opinions on it.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

You use the method I posted above to properly adjust your idle.

 

[NHerron]

I hate to disagree with someone as helpful as Keiya but the whole BISS buisness is a touchy subject and confuses a lot of people.

Idle is not set with the BISS. This isnt a carburetor. First, the throttle body plate is opened ever so slightly via the stop screw, so that when you snap release the gas pedal, the plate doesnt get jammed in the bore. Nothing to do with air.
Now the BISS screw is for setting the idle air control valves' position. Without an advanced datalogger or ECMlink, its only guessing where the IAC is at. Basically, at idle the IAC should be right in the middle of its range. This is so that if you turn on the AC or clock the wheels left or right it doesnt bog down the engine since the IAC has enough travel to allow more or less air to the engine by bypassing the TB plate.

Say you do get the idle changed via the BISS. Well thats fine- except now the IAC is useless because its either jacked all the way open or closed TRYING to set the engine speed around 750ish RPMs. Now a few small quirks happen- idle changes due to temperature, idle drops and stays down with the AC on, engine might die or act funny when releasing pedal coming off WOT. Other things too, but the point has been made by now. Idle cannot be changed or set, because the ECU is hardwired to idle the engine a certain RPM. If the idle is out of range then there is a problem.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Absolutely correct. You want to have the isc position around the 35-40 mark so that it has optimal travel distance in extending or retracting and the proper way to moniter this is via a datalogger. However, in most every case, 2 screws out from the bottomed out position is around the factory positions. If you need to get your idle set properly, this method will work great unless there is an underlying problem. I should probably make a video for it. Haha.

To get it perfect, however, it's advised to use a datalogger and meet the 35-40 mark. Guessing with your BISS adjustment can lead to a lot of problems.

Thanks for bringing that up! I should be a bit more clear about the BISS from now on.

 

[Saturdee]

Alright I'll stay clear the the BISS and use your method. Now I did fiddle with the screw when I first had the car, before then engine went, so should use the method of tightening the whole way, then loosening it two full roatations to get it back it's factory setting?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

It'll get you in the range but it won't be dead-perfect at all. That's where a data-logger comes in so you can check the position of the ISC. However it should get you in the range close enough for a good idle and help you accommodate any pitches. Very small, 1/4 turns after that are crucial.

Also, this depends heavily on if you have any vacuum/boost leaks. The more there are, the harder setting your idle will be. Perform a boost leak test before hand.

 

[Saturdee]

It'll get you in the range but it won't be dead-perfect at all. That's where a data-logger comes in so you can check the position of the ISC. However it should get you in the range close enough for a good idle and help you accommodate any pitches. Very small, 1/4 turns after that are crucial.

Also, this depends heavily on if you have any vacuum/boost leaks. The more there are, the harder setting your idle will be. Perform a boost leak test before hand.

Sounds good. Thanks for all the help

 

[NHerron]

Gotcha. At first I wasnt sure because of the way it was phrased, but its such a misunderstood subject 90% of the time, I figured I'd throw it out there anyway. Apologies if that came off wrong. I can see camshaft geometry is not your only expertise

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

I can see camshaft geometry is not your only expertise

I have no idea where that comes from. I know nothing about cams!

 

[JOSHDIZLE]

Double check your MAF is plugged in and operational? When I did my rebuild my engine did the same thing but I forgot to plug the MAF back in.

 

[NHerron]

Whoops, no idea how I got you mixed up with keltalon and his camshaft basics article...