Port n polish?

[bullettdsm]

Speedy said it right!

 

[BigRand]

While we are on the subject, of porting and polishing, I've heard some different things from a different shop that I went to in seattle.

1) I told this guy what would he do when it comes to porting, and he immediately went to talk about porting the head to match the intake runners, and on the exhaust side. He said I wouldn't see too many gains from just porting the intake manifold, and said that he could only port as far back has he could reach in the intake mainfold.

2) my dorm room next door neighbor was saying that I shouldn't polish my intake manifold because should want the intake manifold to send the air in a nice swirly vortext manner, so that it combust better. He said I should only polish the exahust side of the head so that the air can escape faster.

Please tell me whats wrong and write with those statements, and feel free to ream on them all you want. I just want my car built the right way.

Also, how do I tune my car, so that my rev limit moves closer to 9000 rpms, I'm getting and sAFC-2 and planned on porting my intake manifold and getting a 60mm TB. I'm guessing head work has to be done too, but whats the best way to go????

 

[GSGoinFast]

While we are on the subject, of porting and polishing, I've heard some different things from a different shop that I went to in seattle.

1) I told this guy what would he do when it comes to porting, and he immediately went to talk about porting the head to match the intake runners, and on the exhaust side. He said I wouldn't see too many gains from just porting the intake manifold, and said that he could only port as far back has he could reach in the intake mainfold.

I dont think he will have too much trouble porting all of the runner, since it comes apart into 2 pieces.

2) my dorm room next door neighbor was saying that I shouldn't polish my intake manifold because should want the intake manifold to send the air in a nice swirly vortext manner, so that it combust better. He said I should only polish the exahust side of the head so that the air can escape faster.

Rifle it? this is a good question because i have seen many different views on this, some say polish it baby butt smooth, others say dont polish it and just port it... unfortunately i dont have a good answer so we will have to wait for someone who does.
Please tell me whats wrong and write with those statements, and feel free to ream on them all you want. I just want my car built the right way.

Also, how do I tune my car, so that my rev limit moves closer to 9000 rpms, I'm getting and sAFC-2 and planned on porting my intake manifold and getting a 60mm TB. I'm guessing head work has to be done too, but whats the best way to go????

DR, this is one other question i have for you about the megasquirt. does that get rid of the rev limiter or not? otherwise the only way to get rid of it is to go full stand alone or splice in the AF/x ecu. you might want to hold off on that s-afc for a little bit.

 

[SnoopySLR]

they're both kinda right. You will see more gains if you port the head too, obviously. Most people only port as far as they can reach, but there are ways to get the entire thing. I've seen people blow glass beads through the manifold to port everything. The swirling texture does help, but most people just use a TB spacer to get that swirl.

As for shooting for 9k rpm.... I don't advise it. Unless you do some internal work, your just going to blow the motor up.

 

[bullettdsm]

While we are on the subject, of porting and polishing, I've heard some different things from a different shop that I went to in seattle.

1) I told this guy what would he do when it comes to porting, and he immediately went to talk about porting the head to match the intake runners, and on the exhaust side. He said I wouldn't see too many gains from just porting the intake manifold, and said that he could only port as far back has he could reach in the intake mainfold.

2) my dorm room next door neighbor was saying that I shouldn't polish my intake manifold because should want the intake manifold to send the air in a nice swirly vortext manner, so that it combust better. He said I should only polish the exahust side of the head so that the air can escape faster.

Please tell me whats wrong and write with those statements, and feel free to ream on them all you want. I just want my car built the right way.

Also, how do I tune my car, so that my rev limit moves closer to 9000 rpms, I'm getting and sAFC-2 and planned on porting my intake manifold and getting a 60mm TB. I'm guessing head work has to be done too, but whats the best way to go????

OK guys, let's see if we can get an understanding. First off SnoopySLR, I suspect that someone either gave you bad info or you misundertsood. We use the glass bead machine in order to clean the ports. It may polish the port somewhat but I can't think of a scenario where it can actually take away the metal to port it.

Now, what is going on with the porting is that we are all guessing. The official and best way to port is to take a flow tester and bench test it. This usually takes a few heads and some time at trial and error. This is where the art part of porting a head comes in. After you have done a few heads you get to know what to look for and the GENERAL area of removal. Each head is different (as is each engine) and there are vary degrees of removal depending on each individuals needs. The reason that I ported the areas and amount that I did was because of previous experiences and educated guesses as to what I think the best areas are. As I stated before, I did not get as agressive as I usually do because I am not familiar with that head. Make no mistake about it, I definitely gained a good deal of horsepower from my port and polish. I know this because I did the install in stages. I first installed the intake with my stock TB and worked my way up to the 60mm.

BigRand, as for the two people that you talked to, there is truth in both of their statements. Your engine is basically a giant air pump that we are trying to get as much air through as quickly as possible. Therefore all the laws of physics and airodynamics are incorporated in what we do ( I will not pretend to know any of those laws, just tested them out in various off-road activities ). One thing that a lot of people do forget about is the exhaust side. Yes you want the exhaust to go out as easily as possible (please don't jump on me about back pressure. Yes you need a certain amount of back pressure, that is part of the go out easily equation). One of the reasons people get "tuned" exhausts is because there are few joints for you to have conflict with (as well as the straight pipe concept). Every joint that you have in an exhaust is a possible point of conflict. If your joints don't line up just right you will have edges sticking out that will cause turbulence. Now granted it is very little and the turbulence that we are talking about is more of a concern for the serious racer than any of the street/strip racers that we are talking about. So by all means, port to match and polish away, it shouldn't hurt anything.

Now as for the non-polishing because of the "vortex" this is often argued. The thing I can say about this is that I have never had worse performance after polishing; always better. But I do not polish the port to a babies' bottom. As I look at the intake on our cars, I see the plenum as a body that allows our "swirly mixture." I could be totally off-base on that assessment but I do know that my P + P was extremely helpful to my performance.

One thing I would caution though is listening to your dorm rooms' next door neighbors,' friends,' brothers,' cousin etc...That info could have been changed by the time you heard it or someone could be just blowin' smoke up yer ass.

Don't worry, I'm not reamin' on anybody and you are on to the right direction in getting 9000, you have to allow the engine to get more air. But there is a bit more than that to do and I will leave that for someone else (my hands are tired and my "blow me" sandwich is waiting - no not a sexual reference Chris)

I Hope all this wordy bulls**t helps someone understand.
MB

 

[SnoopySLR]

 

[GSGoinFast]

anyone got a picture of these injector humps? so i can get an idea of what im getting into?

 

[bullettdsm]

anyone got a picture of these injector humps? so i can get an idea of what im getting into?

I'll get you a pic by tomorrow if you don't get one sooner. I can't download the pic because my dog ate the transfer cable . No, really! She did! I'll get a new one tomorrow (cable not dog).

MB

 

[dr1665]

1) I told this guy what would he do when it comes to porting, and he immediately went to talk about porting the head to match the intake runners, and on the exhaust side. He said I wouldn't see too many gains from just porting the intake manifold, and said that he could only port as far back has he could reach in the intake mainfold.

I dont think he will have too much trouble porting all of the runner, since it comes apart into 2 pieces.

Chris is right about the manifold coming apart as most of us know, but it is tricky to find a reputable machinist with the small, bi*** hands required to get into those places to port accurately imo. This is why ExtrudeHone makes so much money, they are able to get into every nook and crannie to port evenly and smoothly where it would otherwise be blind porting. Also, what the above-mentioned machinist was saying about matching the ports on the head to the runners is 100% correct. Should you have extensive port work done to your head later on, you would be wise to get your intake manifold ported to match the new ports on the head at that time as well.

my dorm room next door neighbor was saying that I shouldn't polish my intake manifold because should want the intake manifold to send the air in a nice swirly vortext manner, so that it combust better. He said I should only polish the exahust side of the head so that the air can escape faster.

Rifle it? this is a good question because i have seen many different views on this, some say polish it baby butt smooth, others say dont polish it and just port it... unfortunately i dont have a good answer so we will have to wait for someone who does.

Negative. While there might be benefits to getting the air charge to swirl and flow into the head better (hey, it works for water, so why not use some fluid dynamics, eh?), the best port job you can get on your intake manifold is ExtrudeHone. When they send your manifold back to you, I've been told the internal surfaces are like glass (told this by Eddy Fierro, who has been porting and building engines for more than 20 years), they are so smooth.

Power is made from forcing air and fuel (properly mixed, mind you) into the combustion chamber per ignition event. Once you start opening up the volume of the intake components (runners, TB, intake, filter), your engine will be sucking the same amount of air in that it always does unless you've built the head to flow more with cams, valves, and the like.

Take the same amount of air and run it through a larger diameter pipe. What happens? Velocity comes down and you lose that low end power we NT guys need. (Shit. We need low end power, mid-range power, top end power... is there any kind of power we don't want? !) So, having your intake manifold completely ExtrudeHoned smooths out all the little imperfections in the interior surfaces to give that intake charge as smooth, and quick, path into the combustion chamber as possible. Another plus to ExtrudeHone is that, by polishing the interior of the intake to a near glass finish, the overall volume is increased as well. Yes, this is all just minute, almost microscopic imperfections, but you get the principle.

You can't compare the horsepower gains of a non-turbo car to those of our turbo brethren in these situations, because turbos live for these kinds of mods. After all, keep in mind that all a turbo does is force more air into the engine. You open up the intake path like this on a turbo car, you're going to see serious gains.

DR, this is one other question i have for you about the megasquirt. does that get rid of the rev limiter or not? otherwise the only way to get rid of it is to go full stand alone or splice in the AF/x ecu. you might want to hold off on that s-afc for a little bit.

I don't know if you asked this before or after the other thread where we got into MSnS discussion, but yes, the MSnS is capable of running your engine all the way to a screaming 15,000rpm. Now, this is the MegaSquirt that can safely run accurately to those speeds. Whether a 420A can be built and balanced to those kinds of speeds is another issue altogether. Even if you could balance a 420A out to 15krpm, you'd need some serious, custom cams to make the most of those higher speeds, and as far as I can tell, without something like a VTEC system, if you had cams to make use of that kind of top end, you'd practically need a push start to get the car up to 30mph. That said, Crower rates their stage 2 cams for the 420A to above 7000rpm, so I figure I will see how they do when I run them out to around 8500-9000rpm or so. If they fall flat on their face at 7000 rpm, then I will look into either the Crower 3 cams or perhaps something custom, but that's all later this summer.

On the plus side, if the engine is built and balanced to 9000rpm, then having peak horsepower occur at something like 8000rpm would mean virtually no risk of over-revving the engine. I doubt anyone who's got their engine running at those speeds is going to continue to do so once they feel the power start to noticeably drop off.

Wow. Some really good discussions going on over here lately for sure.

 

[GSGoinFast]

I'll get you a pic by tomorrow if you don't get one sooner. I can't download the pic because my dog ate the transfer cable . No, really! She did! I'll get a new one tomorrow (cable not dog).

MB

that would be great! thanks.

Even if you could balance a 420A out to 15krpm, you'd need some serious, custom cams to make the most of those higher speeds, and as far as I can tell, without something like a VTEC system, if you had cams to make use of that kind of top end, you'd practically need a push start to get the car up to 30mph.

do indy cars have vtec? i know they rev that high, and do scream like powerful Hondas, but i didnt think they did. how do they pull it off? i was looking at putting some 16's in, but i really dont have the funds to rebuild the whole head, with lifters and what not, so i dont think it would be a good idea now.

Wow. Some really good discussions going on over here lately for sure.

Amazing isnt it? there still arent enough hours in the day to search 2gnt.com tho

 

[bullettdsm]

I'll get you a pic by tomorrow if you don't get one sooner. I can't download the pic because my dog ate the transfer cable . No, really! She did! I'll get a new one tomorrow (cable not dog).

MB

Chris,
Here are the pics. I have a pic of the two pieces then a couple of close-ups of the intake where it bolts to the head. On the top half are the humps that need to be taken down. Under the injector humps (on the bottom of the hole) there is a hump in the runner. I removed that hump. All these humps will become self-evident once you have the part in your hand. But this will give you an idea.
Oh yeah, don't forget me when i come up with some stupid MSnS computer question. I'll have lots.

 

[GSGoinFast]

Chris,
Here are the pics. I have a pic of the two pieces then a couple of close-ups of the intake where it bolts to the head. On the top half are the humps that need to be taken down. Under the injector humps (on the bottom of the hole) there is a hump in the runner. I removed that hump. All these humps will become self-evident once you have the part in your hand. But this will give you an idea.
Oh yeah, don't forget me when i come up with some stupid MSnS computer question. I'll have lots.

ok here comes a noob question that i have always wonderd. how do you take the bottom part out, like take the injectors out? do you have to remove the fuel rail? thats the only part im not too sure about. thanks for the help. i got lots of MSnS questions too but i have a lot of time before i get mine, so i gotta lot of research to do.

 

[bullettdsm]

ok here comes a noob question that i have always wonderd. how do you take the bottom part out, like take the injectors out? do you have to remove the fuel rail? thats the only part im not too sure about. thanks for the help. i got lots of MSnS questions too but i have a lot of time before i get mine, so i gotta lot of research to do.

I gotta run so let's see if I can make this one relatively quick. This is a general removal. I think you will get the picture if i missed something small. Start with TB then pull all hoses and mark them if you need. then pull the electrical harness that is threaded through the intake and rail out of your way ( mark if necessary). This will be an enormous help by cleaning up the area. Then I took the top half of my intake off. I believe that you can take out the rail and injectors first but I did this because, again, it gave me more room. To get to the top half bolts you will need a looooong adapter (I used a 2 footer that I have. You can always just stack adapters). Other than that it was relatively easy. You can take off injectors and rails all together. They are held in by round seals to the bottom half of the intake. they just pop off (with a little force and don't pull by rail, pull on the injectors. I like to start on on side and work over. Now you have easier access to your bottom half. The middle bolts (or nuts I can't remember) are easy enough to get to. the battery side takes a little rubber arm to reach. The pulley side I remember that there is a bracket or something in your way. You will see it when you get there.
Don't sweat this removal too much. If you could do the UDP, you can certainly do this one.
One thing you want to keep in mind is (though I know that money may be an issue with you) if you, for some strange reason, screw up the intake, they tend to be a dime a dozen (ok not quite that cheap). Worst case scenario you gotta get a junker. But that is highly unlikely.
I hope this helps, gotta run,
MB

 

[SnoopySLR]

Look at the shit on the inside of that thing... God EGR's suck! I removed mine, cause thats just nasty. Anyone who is thinking of P&P their manifold, clean it and remove the EGR. Its a stupid, pointless (in a tuners standpoint) system. If you have emission testing in your state, then sorry... you need it.

 

[bullettdsm]

Look at the shit on the inside of that thing... God EGR's suck! I removed mine, cause thats just nasty. Anyone who is thinking of P&P their manifold, clean it and remove the EGR. Its a stupid, pointless (in a tuners standpoint) system. If you have emission testing in your state, then sorry... you need it.

Hey!! It's only got 127,000 on it!

 

[GSGoinFast]

Hey!! It's only got 127,000 on it!

hey man thanks for all the info and the pics. ill be making an attempt at this in a couple of weeks. im gonna go read your PM now. thanks

 

[SnoopySLR]

I'm not getting on you or anything, they all look like that! Mine was worse I think...

 

[GSGoinFast]

Look at the shit on the inside of that thing... God EGR's suck! I removed mine, cause thats just nasty. Anyone who is thinking of P&P their manifold, clean it and remove the EGR. Its a stupid, pointless (in a tuners standpoint) system. If you have emission testing in your state, then sorry... you need it.

shit i got emissions testing comeing up too... and i already got a CEL cuz i guess my hi-flow cat is only flowing hi, not doing the cat part. but i got resistors and i will be getting rid of that soon. maybe ill get rid of that, get emissions done, then port and polish the intake mani and get rid of the EGR(illinois only checks the obdII system, and if it says the cars ok they say its ok, they dont test the actual admissions...) thanks for the help.

 

[speedy13]

peple please DO NOT REMOVE THE EGR.the exaust gas recirculation valve is there for a reason.beside gettin your intake all cruddy it actually helps reduce combustion temperatures in the combustion chamber thus making a better explosion and lowering your pistom to wall temperature thus making your engine last longer.you might get 1 or 2 hp out of this mod for what?premature engine wear,just not worth it in my opinion.

 

[SnoopySLR]

please explain how it reduces combustion chamber temp...

EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) Valve. Takes exhaust before it goes into your manifold and sends it back through the intake. This exhaust (AKA hot air) still contains unburnt fuel, so when it enters the combustion chamber it burns off this additional fuel. This process keeps repeating until Uncle Sam says the air is clean enough (which is never).

The only reason we have EGR systems is to reduce emissions. I have never heard of it making your combustion chamber cooler. IMO removing the EGR will extend your engine life by making it run cleaner air in the combustion chamber.

also, in therory you will gain maybe 1-2 hp, but I have never heard of anyone actually dynoing their car after removing the EGR.

 

[GSGoinFast]

please explain how it reduces combustion chamber temp...

EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) Valve. Takes exhaust before it goes into your manifold and sends it back through the intake. This exhaust (AKA hot air) still contains unburnt fuel, so when it enters the combustion chamber it burns off this additional fuel. This process keeps repeating until Uncle Sam says the air is clean enough (which is never).

The only reason we have EGR systems is to reduce emissions. I have never heard of it making your combustion chamber cooler. IMO removing the EGR will extend your engine life by making it run cleaner air in the combustion chamber.

also, in therory you will gain maybe 1-2 hp, but I have never heard of anyone actually dynoing their car after removing the EGR.

i thinnk the main initial benefits are cooler intake charge, and your not putting burnt uncombustable gases back in the combustion chamber, leaving more room for fresh stuff.. but i think another benefit would be you wouldnt start loosing power down the road due to the intake mani getting all dirty... We can thank our good liberal friends for all these restrictions we face, but i think if nature can handle a giant meteor hitting the earth, it can handle a little sulferoxide

 

[speedy13]

The exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system is used to reduce the amount of NOx created by the engine. It does this by diluting the air/fuel mixture with a small amount of inert gas (usually less than 10% of the total mixture); exhaust gas is used since it contains only a small amount of oxygen (and is readily available). Adding it has the effect of lowering the combustion temperature below the point at which nitrogen combines with oxygen to form NOx. When working properly, the EGR does not open when the engine is cold, at idle or WOT. A defective EGR can have a severe impact on the quality of idle

 

[SnoopySLR]

There are hundreds of different EGR systems. The only ones I've ever heard of cooling your system are the ones that pull the blow by air out of the crank case and blow directly on the valves when they open. This is mostly found on GM and some older Ford motors. Our system doesn't function like that. We draw it straight from the exhaust stroke

 

[speedy13]

hey belive what you want,they all complete the same function.I myself wouldn't do it.anybody is free to blow up their motors however they want.i'm not sayin that removing the egr will blow your engine but in my opinion its not a good idea, thats all.back on the subject,i myself removed as little material as posible on the humps,i did leave as much as i could babybutt smooth dough.like weve all been sayin this is a great mod,I myself if i had to do it again would pay a machine shop to do it simply because it's so time taking.