One coil pack not firing, suggestions?

[MountainDew]

95 Talon AWD Turbo
Firing order 4-1-2-3


After a valve job the engine will not run properly. It runs rough and shakes and then dies. After some trouble shooting I determined that cylinders 1&4 will fire but 2&3 have no spark at all. I switched signal wires from working coil pack on the left with the right coil pack and the problem moved with the wire switch. I had the same results when I moved the plug wires. I even tried a friends working coil pack with the exact same results.

This tells me that I’m not getting the signal to fire the right coil pack. I’ve checked all the obvious things like wiring connections, shorted/grounded wires and haven’t found anything.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[meliketoball]

I'm a noob; spark plugs?

 

[MountainDew]

How would I test the CAS? This is the only thing we can think of that could be wrong..

 

[luv2rallye]

See posts 2 & 4 here. Although it's for a 1g it should work similarly for your 2g (except you only get 2 pulses per rev - the CPS provides the other 2). Make sure you mark the CAS casing and innerards so you can put it back in exactly the same position when done.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238267#post50470620

 

[MountainDew]

Is there an easy easy to take it off or do I have to get the timing cover off again? :/

 

[TALONTRAX]

Try swapping the coil packs. If the problem follows the coil, that coil pack is bad. If the swapped coil still does not fire, then it`s a triggering issue(transistor,ecu,cas,etc.)

 

[Vicious_mole]

i seen it sugested a few time but my car wouldn't get spark off of 2-3 and wouldn't run under boost, then after i shut it off hot it wouldn't start for like half an hour, and mine ended up being a bad cam sensor

 

[MountainDew]

Try swapping the coil packs. If the problem follows the coil, that coil pack is bad. If the swapped coil still does not fire, then it`s a triggering issue(transistor,ecu,cas,etc.)

Yeah we've done that already as previously stated. Everyone is putting their money on the CAS. Especially since I have tried a different transistor and ECU.

Thanks though.

 

[Timechg]

Unfortunately you have to redo the timing to take the intake cam sprocket off to get to the cam position sensor. You will also have to take the valve cover off to put a big wrench on the cam. Have fun with that

 

[MountainDew]

Unfortunately you have to redo the timing to take the intake cam sprocket off to get to the cam position sensor. You will also have to take the valve cover off to put a big wrench on the cam. Have fun with that

No way in hell I would rather push the car off a cliff then redo the whole timing procedure!

Someone please just kill me or something.. anything else someone can think of besides the CAS?

 

[luv2rallye]

My bet is the CAS.
Here's the factory test proceedure for the 99 that should also work for you. Note all voltage measurements are to ground.
- Disconnect CAS connector.
- Measure the voltage on harness side CAS pin 3 (red wire) with key on - should be +12V.
- Then make sure you have continuity (0 ohms) on harness side CAS pin 1 (black) to ground.
- Then measure the voltage on harness side CAS pin 2 (blue/red) with key on - should be 4.8-5.2V.
- Reconnect CAS connector.
- Measure voltage on CAS pin 2 (blue/red) while cranking engine - should be 0.4-3.0V [engine idling should be 0.5-2.0]. If you have 0V your CAS is dead since you should read something (even though they are pulses the voltmeter will read the average which will be more than 0). Note: To get at the wire inside you can stick a safety pin through the insulation and connect voltmeter lead to it.

Here is pic of the 95-96 CAS location: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57673&d=1131787540

Oh and before you jump off that cliff, here is some timing belt tensioning tips that make it easier: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214625

 

[MountainDew]

My bet is the CAS.
Here's the factory test proceedure for the 99 that should also work for you. Note all voltage measurements are to ground.
- Disconnect CAS connector.
- Measure the voltage on harness side CAS pin 3 (red wire) with key on - should be +12V.
- Then make sure you have continuity (0 ohms) on harness side CAS pin 1 (black) to ground.
- Then measure the voltage on harness side CAS pin 2 (blue/red) with key on - should be 4.8-5.2V.
- Reconnect CAS connector.
- Measure voltage on CAS pin 2 (blue/red) while cranking engine - should be 0.4-3.0V [engine idling should be 0.5-2.0]. If you have 0V your CAS is dead since you should read something (even though they are pulses the voltmeter will read the average which will be more than 0). Note: To get at the wire inside you can stick a safety pin through the insulation and connect voltmeter lead to it.

Here is pic of your CAS location: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57673&d=1131787540

Oh and before you jump off that cliff, here is some timing belt tensioning tips that make it easier: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214625

Thanks I'll try and get it tested soon and post my results.

 

[MountainDew]

Just tested the CAS. The Harness side tested out just fine, however I think the actual sensor itself is pretty shot.

As far as the other testing goes, we used a Digital and Analog Voltmeter to test it. We got .14v when the key was on and .16v when we were starting the car and it would idle for a couple seconds on 2 cylinders.

I think it's safe to say I need to order a new one tonight, but I just want to double check. Btw luv2rallye is the man!

Also big thanks to everyone here for helping me out. This place is great, much better then dsmtalk.

 

[jserman]

having same issues... let me know what you figure out..

 

[d j]

I'm also having *like* issues... on a '97 TSi AWD (manual trans);

i've taken the same steps (swapped ecu, igniter,coils,etc);
What I did do was test for wire-breakage on ob1 & ob2 (pin 10 & 23 on the ecu-harness side).

i unplugged the ECU harness, ran a single-wire from the +pos battery terminal to ob1-pin @ the igniter plug then checked at the ECU side for the 12v+ signal w/ a multimeter (this this for both ob1 & ob2). both wires show no signs of breaks/cuts/broken.

next i used a multimeter and tested for a positive signal from pin 10 & pin 23 at the ECU side while cranking - the ob2 did NOT show any signal from the ECU - which leads me to think that the ECU is at fault, however, I borrowed an ECU from a *known working* source.

my question now is - would the ECU care if we had a cam position sensor or crank position sensor?
i did swap the CAS for the CPS (both are installed but only one plug for the CPS) and i got the same results ... no spark on #2 & #3.

i think my ecu's are junk... because i saw 12v+ through each pin (#10 & #23) i'm not thinking "wiring issues" - more so, ecu issues. heck i even put the multimeter on the Crank Position Sensor just to see any type of activity from it - which it did show signs of life.

 

[d j]

...and what i dont know is exactly what "triggers" the coils to fire (outside of the mirco-code on the ecu/eprom chip) - so my tests may not even be valid.

 

[luv2rallye]

my question now is - would the ECU care if we had a cam position sensor or crank position sensor?
i did swap the CAS for the CPS (both are installed but only one plug for the CPS) and i got the same results ... no spark on #2 & #3.

The 2g ECU needs both a working CAS and CPS connected properly (cannot swap them) for ignition but the plugs fire on the falling edge of the CPS signal (adjusted by an advance amount for rpms above idle).

i think my ecu's are junk... because i saw 12v+ through each pin (#10 & #23) i'm not thinking "wiring issues" - more so, ecu issues. heck i even put the multimeter on the Crank Position Sensor just to see any type of activity from it - which it did show signs of life.

You should never see more than +5V on those pins. In fact at idle I see 0.4VDC (it's a pulse but the dc average is this).

 

[siceclipse]

this is an old thread, and i dont remember if the OP came back with the outcome, but I am willing to bet some serious cash that it was the Cam Angle Sensor.

With 95's you have to take the cam gear off the intake side before taking the cam out so you dont damage the CAS. The OP said the problem started after doing a valve job on the car.

Thing that sucks about this mistake is that you have to re-do the timing again in the car.

 

[d j]

The 2g ECU needs both a working CAS and CPS connected properly (cannot swap them) for ignition but the plugs fire on the falling edge of the CPS signal (adjusted by an advance amount for rpms above idle).


You should never see more than +5V on those pins. In fact at idle I see 0.4VDC (it's a pulse but the dc average is this).

now i'm interested as i do not have a cam angle plug on the car... i couldn't find it. saw a buddies last night with the 3pin triangle plug and the 3pin rectangular plug... i have only the 3pin triangular plug and i kid you not... the harness doesn't look messed with.

so cam position sensor and crank position sensor or CAS right?

 

[luv2rallye]

dj: You said you have a 97 but didn't say if it has a 6 bolt swap. If not (ie. a factory 2g) you have both a Cam Angle Sensor (CAS) and a Crank Position Sensor (CPS) which are different things. The CAS is off the intake cam shaft passenger side. The CPS is down on the crank gear but it's plug is on the outside rear edge of the timing belt middle cover. If you have a 6 bolt swap then you only have a CAS but you have some special harness that plugs into both the 2g CAS and CPS harness plugs to provide the proper signals (unless they replaced the entire engine wire harness with a 1g one and probably the ECU also).

 

[d j]

well after more research on alldatapro.com ...i've got an head from a '95 which did have the CAS on the cam gear, seems the later models had the CAS on the 1g location / thermostat side.

Seems the '97 TSi harness wasn't wired up for the CAS on the cam-gear side. i think i'm on the right track.

/dj hates inheriting disassembled cars

 

[luv2rallye]

i've got an head from a '95 which did have the CAS on the cam gear, seems the later models had the CAS on the 1g location / thermostat side.

95-96 has the CAS inside the intake camshaft gear (which is a different CAS than all other years). 97-99 has it outside on the passenger end of the intake camshaft (which is a different CAS than the 1g one).

 

[MountainDew]

this is an old thread, and i dont remember if the OP came back with the outcome, but I am willing to bet some serious cash that it was the Cam Angle Sensor.

With 95's you have to take the cam gear off the intake side before taking the cam out so you dont damage the CAS. The OP said the problem started after doing a valve job on the car.

Thing that sucks about this mistake is that you have to re-do the timing again in the car.

Yup it was the Cam sensor. Can't exactly remember how I figured it out, I think I left it plugged in then unplugged it and it did the same thing, only fired on 2 cylinders. But when I disconnected the crank sensor, it didn't do anything.

I did the wise thing and did a 1G CAS swap. I got the sensor for free at the junkyard and made my own wiring harness. Car fired right up and started misfiring, so I switched to a blacktop. Now it is very rare that I get a misfire.

I'm actually very glad I did all this already, because I am in the process of building a 6bolt block to swap in my car.

(Stupid ass 7bolt oil filter housings.. came loose under boost and spilled all my oil out. Going with a 90' filter housing this time.)

 

[luv2rallye]

now i'm interested as i do not have a cam angle plug on the car... i couldn't find it. saw a buddies last night with the 3pin triangle plug and the 3pin rectangular plug... i have only the 3pin triangular plug and i kid you not... the harness doesn't look messed with.

Cam Angle Sensor has the 3pin rectangular plug and Crank Position Sensor has the 3pin triangle plug.

 

[Eagle_Phoenix]

it work on wasted spark, two and two ....

the transistor receives a Dwell pulse from the ECU (non inverted) and it ground the transistor, when ONCE it is ungrounded it will leave a spark.

So .....

one side firing only, may be first your ecu not dwelling the pulse, second, if may be your transistor burned on that side not working, third it can be your primary and secondary coil of that part not working that melted the varnish and got shorted inside, and does not saturate the proper high voltage to spark a nice spark because the high voltage coil lost its insulation!

THIS IS THE MOST PRECISE EXPLANATION DONE FOR ME!

 

[nicholasramos]

Reviving an old thread here, but what would you do if the black wire was not reading 0 ohms. I did this test today and got 3 ohms for both the cps and cas ground wire.