Oiling system upgrades/changes for road racing

[decathect]

Haven't found a specific topic on this and it is something i'm very interested in researching and planning for the road race car i'm building for this season.

That being said, what oiling system changes/enhancements/upgrades should be done? What are the weaknesses of the DSM oiling system?

Specific topics:
1. Oil pan baffling - do DSMs have oil sloshing/oil pickup/starvation problems? In hard turns?

2. Oil supply to the head - I have read that DSMs tend to pump too much oil to the head (when you want as much in the pan as possible at all times), hence the need for the Kiggly/Evo3 head oil regulator. Is there anything else that can be done on this front? Does changing lifters to say, 3g have a positive or negative impact?

3. Oil squirters - my plan was to use these as they seem like a good reliability/cooling measure. My car is an endurance race car so needs to last 24 hours of continuous racing.

4. Balance shaft delete/oil pressure issues - I'd like to keep the oil pressure reasonable without balance shafts, is oil pump/OFH porting going to be enough to do that? Again, do lifters have some sort of impact on this? Perhaps 3g lifters help reduce oil pressure?

5. Oil temp - I am planning on running an air to liquid oil cooler.

6. Any other upgrades or modifications that will help with reliability and performance? Thanks!

Thanks for the help. I don't currently have an intimate knowledge of the DSM oil system so i'd like to gain some knowledge before I go racing in one!

 

[bryanwheat]

I would run a large external oil cooler with it's own fan for what you are doing. The oiling system in these cars is really pretty good for the most part. Might look into a kiggly regulator which will keep more oil in the pan.

 

[BogusSVO]

The 4g oil pan has a simple single slosh baffle in the oil pan.

I port the front oil galleys in the block.

Oil port mod helps with flow to the head, From what I understand the Kiggley regulates the pressure.

As long as it is a Turbo 6 bolt block, keep the squirters, but if a 7 bolt block plug them.and go to the 6 bolt style.

If you port the OFH properly, that should offset the extra oil pressure from the BSE.

No the 3g HLAs will not lower oil pressure to my knowledge, they help keep the dreaded lifter tic away.

 

[theamsoilguy]

Are you racing lemons or chump? Most mods will get you a penalty. The 1g came with a external oil cooler for some years. But you have great questions and I have the same ones. I put a pressure light in my car ( chump car racing ) and the light goes on from time to time, BUT I installed it off the head. I have since bought a adapter to let me mount it at the oil filter housing and I will see what that does.

 

[decathect]

The 4g oil pan has a simple single slosh baffle in the oil pan.

I port the front oil galleys in the block.

Oil port mod helps with flow to the head, From what I understand the Kiggley regulates the pressure.

As long as it is a Turbo 6 bolt block, keep the squirters, but if a 7 bolt block plug them.and go to the 6 bolt style.

If you port the OFH properly, that should offset the extra oil pressure from the BSE.

No the 3g HLAs will not lower oil pressure to my knowledge, they help keep the dreaded lifter tic away.

Is there anything that can be done in lieu of the expensive kiggly part to keep excess oil out of the head?

By 4g oil pan, do you mean 4G63 oil pan? Is that built-in slosh baffle effective enough to not need other modification, in your opinion?

it seems like the larger orifice in the HLA would have an impact... on oil pressure, in theory. I have no proof though.

I forgot to mention oil cooler, will definitely be running one.

 

[Atuca]

Just because you have this posted in the road racing forum, I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there because it certainly needs to be for a real road race car.

The cheap option is the accusump:

Canton Racing Products

The real racing option is a dry sump (on most race cars)

Magnus 4G63 Dry Sump Full Kit | Magnus Motorsports


I'll let magus's web page do all the describing, but it's the only way to solve oil starvation issues.

The accusump may work depending on the track. It basically gives your oil system a buffer in large sweepers, and the straights it starts to refil before the next turn. It works for some road racers (John/tsiawd666) but didn't work for others (Andrew/gixxerdrew).

Should at least consider it in your future plans if nothing else.


And might want to do some more searching on this topic, there are plenty "in general" threads. Here is one I personally started specifically on the Accusump:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/roa...cusump-oil-issues-high-g-forces-solution.html

 

[decathect]

Yeah, I've actually owned/used an Accusump before on my previous race car and I'm not a fan for various reasons. I think a well thought out motor build and baffling (if necessary) is usually sufficient.

Dry sump isnt' an option for us, unfortunately. (even if I could afford it... it would be sweet!)

 

[BogusSVO]

The factory baffle is better than nothing. I would fab up a crank scraper, to help keep oil roping down, and more oil in the pan. (doubt a tech would notice if it was installed, unless you have to do a full tear down of the engine. Same would be true for the other oil mods.

I would check the older Hyundai 4g clone engines for one of the older oil pressure regs. I have not studied them close yet. But just from what little I have seen of them, they are different.

 

[fun kart kid]

No to the 3g hla's thay flow more so thr pressure might be slightly lower. But thay dump more oil in the head and then it has a hard time returning to the pan. That leads to more oil starvation problems.

 

[decathect]

I wonder how bad an idea it is to put a restrictor in the pressurized oil feed to the head...

OR....

Better yet, weld the hole into the head regulator and drill it out a bit smaller...

 

[Archer Fabrications]

http://magnusmotorsports.com/products/dry-sump-products-services/magnus-4g63-dry-sump-full-kit/

It's a good read and solution all in one

I plan to just deepens my pan and pick up.

 

[renovatdkitchen]

Theres also Jafro's youtube tips for better oiling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4GR-5s7BrE&list=UUyGT_yinKL7uRiZmTjC17RQ

 

[Jay Cooper]

Haven't found a specific topic on this and it is something i'm very interested in researching and planning for the road race car i'm building for this season.

That being said, what oiling system changes/enhancements/upgrades should be done? What are the weaknesses of the DSM oiling system?

Specific topics:
1. Oil pan baffling - do DSMs have oil sloshing/oil pickup/starvation problems? In hard turns?

2. Oil supply to the head - I have read that DSMs tend to pump too much oil to the head (when you want as much in the pan as possible at all times), hence the need for the Kiggly/Evo3 head oil regulator. Is there anything else that can be done on this front? Does changing lifters to say, 3g have a positive or negative impact?

3. Oil squirters - my plan was to use these as they seem like a good reliability/cooling measure. My car is an endurance race car so needs to last 24 hours of continuous racing.

4. Balance shaft delete/oil pressure issues - I'd like to keep the oil pressure reasonable without balance shafts, is oil pump/OFH porting going to be enough to do that? Again, do lifters have some sort of impact on this? Perhaps 3g lifters help reduce oil pressure?

5. Oil temp - I am planning on running an air to liquid oil cooler.

6. Any other upgrades or modifications that will help with reliability and performance? Thanks!

Thanks for the help. I don't currently have an intimate knowledge of the DSM oil system so i'd like to gain some knowledge before I go racing in one!

1. At around 1g cornering, no. No slosh or starvation at all.
2. No again. If you want your engine to last the whole race your going to run under 7k rpm. I'll shift around 6k just because there isn't much time advantage for the fuel and heat revving higher. Never had issues with to much oil in the head.
3. Yes. Use the oil squirters
4. Delete the shafts and block the holes with rotated bearings. That's all. No need to port oil passages.
5. Factory 1g or 2g coolers work just fine. Vent your hood behind the rad so air will actually pass threw it and the cooler.
6. Ducted and vented heat exchangers, 5 quarts of 20-50 mobile one and set your bearing clearances on the loose side. We don't even run a fan and have no cooling or oil issues.

I'd like to run a crank scrapper. I think that's a good idea and maybe if you want to make a pan baffle it wouldn't hurt. If you are running a lot higher G corner look into an accusump

 

[cait sith]

The little weenie stock 2G water/oil cooler is NOT up to spec for any sort of track performance driving with something larger than a T25! Your oil will bake pretty hard.

 

[91talon91]

www.crank-scrapers.com A good solution for those who aren't wanting to go with a dry sump system.

 

[arrowhead]

Crank scrapers are not a replacement nor a fix all for an oil solution, they have their function but it is just one small part of the equation, although they help with bringing more oil to the pan, door traps, oil reservoirs around the pick up are more efficient, when compared to the scrapers as these help a lot more on turns and they are not even close to a replacement for a dry sump or an accusump, increasing capacity would be the best bet in a budget.

 

[ACM]

First, what lateral G do you expect to be pulling ? If you are always under 1.5G you should not have a problem - as soon as you hit 1.5G you will definitely have oil starvation. I fitted an AccuSump to my autocross car and it cured the problem completely. However, I still would lose the motor if I tried to run a skid pad on race tyres, since even the 3 quart version only gives you several seconds reprieve - exactly how many seconds I hope never to know !

If you run street tyres you will never have a problem, but once you get onto slicks you will be heading for trouble.

 

[T2Small]

If you are always under 1.5G you should not have a problem - as soon as you hit 1.5G you will definitely have oil starvation.

Was it just at 1.5G? On 245 Hoosiers I only get about 1.3G lateral, and so far haven't seen any issues yet (Moroso oil pan, kiggly regulator in the head, and about 9L of oil in the system).

 

[theamsoilguy]

Boy am I interested in this thread. First time out on 235 Toyo R888 and did a 6 lap test session, lost oil pressure and will be cutting up my filer and checking the oil Monday. Pondered if the car needs something like a accusump. Was raced in chump car, first time out with beffier tires and blam!

 

[T2Small]

For chump car, I'd consider hacking together some baffles and doors and consider an accusump if all you are using is a stock oil pan and pickup. Right now my largest sustained sweeper is one end of a 4/10 mile oval, and it's not enough side loading (or time) to starve me for oil with what I have. (No accusump here.) However, I've only recently added a 50Hz oil pressure data channel, so it is possible I've had minor starvation near the end of a corner. I've never noticed the gauge drop visually, and no oil light has ever come on for me.

I'm carefully watching this thread, as I could be close to the limit.

 

[ACM]

Was it just at 1.5G? On 245 Hoosiers I only get about 1.3G lateral, and so far haven't seen any issues yet (Moroso oil pan, kiggly regulator in the head, and about 9L of oil in the system).

I would say that you are dangerously close, your Moroso pan is what's probably keeping you alive. If you are pulling 1.3 sustained G, then you are probably pulling 1.5 peak G, so you are in the danger zone.

That's a bunch of additional weight at the wrong end or the car though - with an AccuSump you can position the extra weight wherever you choose.

I never had the idiot light come on until I was wondering what the nasty clanking noise was ! My car is pure autocross, we don't really have big sweepers in that sport - maybe 5 seconds max ? Not even that, maybe closer to 3 seconds - but it was enough to kill over half a dozen motors during one season.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

You've got me paranoid now. All I've ever done was overfill the oil by 0.5 litres. I should follow T2Small's example and get a loggable oil pressure sensor.

 

[mrfister11]

i race chump and lemons cars for a while now and just got my 2g built and ready to race a 1g also.. I was at Texas Motor Speedway and had 5 Qts in the pan and alot of turns i was seeing my oil pressure guage flutter slightly.. it never got below 50 psi but its still running out some.. i did NOT have an oil cooler, sadly, as i ran out of time before the race to get it ready. i found this thread searching for an easy solution to help prevent this.. probably going to make my own baffling in the oil pan to help prevent this

 

[GRNDSM]

It is my turn to join this discussion. I do a different type of racing, spectator drags on 1/3 mile banked oval. My laps are around 18 seconds, but they are basically one continuous left turn…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50GhPyIyEsM

I have now lost TWO motors at this event, basically, my last two outings… First time, I didn’t overfill the oil, as I usually do, the second time (this video), I was about ¼ inch over the high mark on the dipstick. I just took apart last year’s motor, which had badly spun #1 rod bearing:

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But #4 bearings also showed signs of starting to do:

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It is easy to point to the long left turn call it the cause of these failures, but… I have been doing this type of racing since the late 1990’s, I must have done well over 30 events, making over 100 passes. Most of them were in a FASTER DSM (some laps were timed under 17 seconds). Fedja also did this event on autox tires, so he was pushing more G’s than what I am doing on this relatively bad handling van.

Could the extreme roll, due to higher CG making THE difference in this case? Because DSMs do not seem to have this problem.

I am building another motor, but I want to make sure that is this isn’t going to happen again! I am thinking of installing a Moroso oil pan and possibly look into an Accusump. Any other ideas? Now that my fuel system is under control, I am thinking of logging oil pressure.

 

[94awdcoupe]

spent several hours today modifying the pickup. took an old oil pan and cut the bottom out. figured it would be the fastest way to get the new pickup exactly where I wanted it. first thing I noticed was the pickup is not centered. it favors the shallow section of the pan. evo 8 time attack guys always complain that long right handers can drop oil pressure. a lot of oil gets stuck in the shallow section of pan. and centrifugal force keeps it stuck there. I also wonder if oil might act like water and form swirl during pickup. so it would be best the pick-up is closer to an outer edge. so here is what stock pickup looks like.

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and here is what it looks like with screen pulled back. the pickup tube is a good 3/4 inch from bottom of pan. this old screen design is not as good as the newer enclosed designs. the enclosed design allows the pickup point to be closer to bottom of pan. so I will be converting the pickup to the later style design.

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and the new pickup. moved back a tad. closer to bottom. and closer to dry side.

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