Official 420A EGR Block-off Disscussion 2007

[Slippi84]

The HRC instructions explain how; you would cut the pipe and add in about a 2" high temp hose extention.

I am only 12 months from having to retake emissions; I need to figure out how to clear this EGR code. I am just so lazy, I will do it sometime soon.

Exactly

 

[Slippi84]

I removed mine because it cleaned up my engine bay and i removed some vacuum lines anyway.

WHich vaccume lines? I"m actually putting stuf back together now and ther3e is this one line I want to just block off but I'm affraid it's something important.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Please remember that the contents of this thread are to pertain only to blocking off the EGR system on 420A DSM's.

 

[tondef_82]

Heres a link to my thread about my EGR setup hope this helps.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/280370-my-egr-blocked-setup-pics.html

Just an update from my last post. I now have 3 CEL lights or codes i should say. One for the EGR not working (obliviously),
another for my fuel mixture being rich and finally one for my downstream o2 sensor not working. I'm
thinking this last one is because of not having by EGR connected. But I may be wrong. I'll be installing
an o2 simulator on that downstream o2 sensor anyway. Will see what happens.

 

[pazsion]

ok i've read a few posts on this here and still haven't come to a definate answer.

colder intake = more power,
cleaner air = more power
more air = more power.

blocked egr system = less air, but since it's blocked, no pressure leaks. or exhaust leaks.

So, now that it's blocked, u can leave it like that, or figure a way to use it to introduce more air.

If it's true that if it were open all the time, and no valve were in place to control it, other then the computer, which closes it.. then vacume in place would suck in more air and your engine would start to rev up. You would also get more air>fuel. And this is the engines way of dealing with the burst of air. problem is. it would continue to rev higher until vacume pressure is restored to its normal. Or max rpms are reached given the vacume leak...I've had it go to 4k before it cut back. But this wasn't an open egr... could be something to play around with tho...I'm guessing if it were open the IAC would then be closed most of the time.. does IAC ever open under load? for more dense air flow..adding a spiral to the intake charge? Or did they not think about that? So here are two systems that can be modified for more power...just need to figure out how =P

 

[Slippi84]

ok i've read a few posts on this here and still haven't come to a definate answer.

colder intake = more power,
cleaner air = more power
more air = more power.

blocked egr system = less air, but since it's blocked, no pressure leaks. or exhaust leaks.

So, now that it's blocked, u can leave it like that, or figure a way to use it to introduce more air.

If it's true that if it were open all the time, and no valve were in place to control it, other then the computer, which closes it.. then vacume in place would suck in more air and your engine would start to rev up. You would also get more air>fuel. And this is the engines way of dealing with the burst of air. problem is. it would continue to rev higher until vacume pressure is restored to its normal. Or max rpms are reached given the vacume leak...I've had it go to 4k before it cut back. But this wasn't an open egr... could be something to play around with tho...I'm guessing if it were open the IAC would then be closed most of the time.. does IAC ever open under load? for more dense air flow..adding a spiral to the intake charge? Or did they not think about that? So here are two systems that can be modified for more power...just need to figure out how =P

It's not less air your just not reciruclating the hot air from the head that's all. Not to mention it's closed at WOT anyway so when power would matter it's not working anyway.

 

[turboglenn]

I just want to throw this is as a question.. Does anyone know what the application was where Chrysler/Dodge put EGR block offs on the car from the factory? When i managed the shipping dept of a local auto yard I saw several motors with block off plates on them in stock factory form. I took a few off and kept them for my self, and they fit my woman's 420a neon motor perfectly. I just don't understand why they would put block offs on them at the factory.

 

[Locke]

Couldn't tell you, Glenn, but Mopar does make block-off plates for the 420a.

 

[pazsion]

I want to block of the egr, attach a steel mesh breather to the remaining tube. so it can breath.. will this cause any problems? I'd like to know of any possibilitys before i just do it.. I'm thinking the motor will just rev up..much like leaving the IAC open or removing a vacume line.

So I'm thinking I'll need to hook up an actuator to a butterfly. thats tied into the same system as the IAC to moderate the air coming in. This should solve the reving issue when it needs to be idling..

But What is the IAC doing mid to max rpm or wOT.. will it just close off? If thats the case I might as well put a manual switch inside center dash. and just close it when it needs to idle. and then have a A/f ratio meter handy so i can adjust on the fly.. maybe a digital readout for settings.. voltage to actuater should be pretty acurate to go by just for a reference point. then for tuning and troubleshooting add windspeed indicators for both the egr bypass and normal intake. Need to know if one if taking from the other, and the speed of that air. And to better understand what needs to change throughout the rpms and under load. Later on I'll have to get someone to program a small program to automate the process for better fuel economy and power.

 

[Locke]

You're over-thinking the process.. Read this thread from the beginning, the solution is already mentioned, and is extremely simple.

 

[Blackndropped]

Mine was block and I didn't even know....it's when I want to block it that I've realised when unsrewing the EGR that theres was already a kit under...so I just got rid of the EGR cause it does look like sh*t!!! I have no CEL problem at all...but I didn't really saw the difference cause it was already blocked

 

[smoejoe1980]

what is cel?

 

[Locke]

CEL = Check Engine Light

 

[TalonTuner07]

I have a 98 Talon ESI and at idle it sometimes drops RPM's and the intake starts to suck enormous amounts of air and the car seems to Rev itself. could the EGR possibly be causing this because it acts like a vacuum leak but i have replaced every hose

 

[nothingfiction]

Apparently i just love to awaken dead threads .

Ok, i understand the good and bad and such and all of that. Don't need to hear all this all over again.
But i do have a question of my own about all of this...

is there a way to just remove the pipe that feeds back to the im?
like block off the tube from the im and block off where that tube meets the egr and then use a bypass plate to allow that air flow but stop the hot air?

Would something like this work while still NOT getting a cel? Or would this not work at all?
Thoughts? Comments?

 

[Locke]

Air doesn't enter the motor by way of the EGR valve, exhaust enters the intake manifold by way of the EGR.

What you're suggesting won't work the way you think.

 

[nothingfiction]

Also...

to re-iterate: i am not talking about blocking off the egr (BUT, if it needs to be done, oh well)
i am talking about the heat tube from egr to the IM

i have read and re-read countless threads and posts about egr blockoff and bypass.
Sure everyone throws up that terrible general for mass audience diagram that deals with all the hoses and lines and says to cap all of that too. Pointless! Were not talking about removing everything here. just simply how to properly install a blockoff/bypass from the egr without running a cel.
Now there are a few (like 1 part in this whole thread) that talks about sandwiching and still using a somewhat usable egr set-up. But does not go into more detail like I (or anyone else who may be new and/or interested in looking into) want.

Everyone has their own reasons why or why not they would/wouldn't do this.
However we have all heard time and time again it cleans the engine bay. Yay, good for you.
it also lowers gas milage if you keep it on (for some). Great! More power to you.
Or the it only works in idle loop (not wot). That's nice, but still useless facts, honestly.

Let's open this up. Someone who's been reading about doing this for years that hasn't would like to know more. the Real info. i first found some of these threads about 2 years ago when i replaced my egr. Yes, i replaced it and it works just fine and dandy. But, as some have said when you switch to megasquirt or whatever you have to take it out anyway. or if your one of those people switching to an obx/venom intake mani... this is what i'm getting at.
i will NOT get into the ridiculously stupid debate of "oh the stock intake works just fine" blah blah blah.
i am not talking about replacing my mani. Just opening this thread up to anyone who would be interested in some information without all the BS hassle i see everywhere else.
By the way, i know AllMotorMike makes bad*ss manifolds which also cannot be used with our egr setup. i am re-opening this thread to those people. Keep your leave it alone comments to yourself. Some people want some newer and up to date information than oh emissions or or stock is good.
For we the people are DSMers and we modify beyond all modification to the extreme within our budget to fine-tune our cars to our own wants and needs.

if there was one single thing that stuck with me while reading all of these posts all together...
i don't remember who said it but, you want to get into the goodVSbad of doing this?
So you take out the nasty exhaust gas out of the intake. Ok. Which also takes out the hot air gas from the chamber as well... This is where i start to get interested but then you cut it short. This should go into more detail because for how many countless posts there are about this theres not any real information. it's like 12 monkeys sitting in a corner flinging poo "oh egr block off is bad *flings poo* "oh its great and didnt do anything to my milage *flings back*. Where is the information? Leave the girly bickering alone and show us information.
So you take the hot gas out of the combustion chamber, which runs the engine lean (which is good since our cars runs rich to begin with unless you run sms or portfueller or some other system) But then the ecu sees its lean so it makes it richer again. Now i am not sure this is accurate but it is what has been posted. This is the information someone would be looking for. But thats all that was said about it. We want details. Like does this even matter if it's only done when in an idle form or not WOT? Could this cause early detonation and within time end up blowing up your motor? This is the information people are looking for.

if i am too blunt, GROW UP. i'm just wanting to give real people real answers instead of the "stock is just fine" answer i see for everything. Oh the stock intake is just fine, the stock cat is good, a working egr is needed, stock cam gears are all you need unless going turbo or without high modifications.
We are DSMers. we didnt buy our dsm because its pricetag or because the gas milage it gets nor even the design of the cars. We got them because of their tune-ability and how easy they are to modify. Not because of cargo space or back leg room. Anyone who disagrees with me on that obviously has never drove a dsm. Think before you speak. Then answer honestly to the best of your knowledge.

 

[Locke]

I bought my first DSM because it was cheap and got good gas mileage. I continued to buy DSM's because they were cheap and got good mileage. They are quick for what they are, though.

I only caught one specific question in that book; You want to know more about how EGR's introduce hot air into the intake stream, but why many people say that it doesn't matter?

This is simply because the EGR only functions while cruising. While accelerating (which is when you want nice cool air) the EGR closes any-ways.

If you want to remove it, go ahead. If you want to prevent the CEL, I think I've posted a couple of poorly drawn pictures demonstrating how to do so. It doesn't really hurt anything not having it. If you're removing it for performance reasons, well, removing the EGR does not benefit performance. If you must remove it for other reasons (IM replacement, as you mentioned, and PF) then remove it. Nobody says you can't.

 

[nothingfiction]

i think i like you Locke. You actually do have good information. But thats not so much my question.
My question is more about the tube. i have been reading up on all of this, and to me doing the sandwich with the 2 block off plates thing, with the hole in the one sounds by far the easiest. So, for me, that would be the route to go. While still having the egr there but only partially working. My thoughts/concerns are more that heat tube. i have seen the ci block off kit that blocks off at the manifold side too. Therefor (in theory) you can just remove that tube too then without throwing a cel. Right? but then you need another block off on the egr where that tube was connected. Right?

if you can block that off as i am believing that you can, is there a point in trying to find a filter for that egr leak? Or am i poorly mistake?


EDIT: you bought your first one because it was cheap and got good gas milage? Before i had this one i had a 93 Eclipse i got for $3000 and i was lucky to get 23k/ph highway for it. And after the hassle i had wanting to put a cold air intake on it dealing with that retarded sensor in the intake i got sick of it and got a 2g. No more problems and so much easier to work on (imho). But for this car i had to get it from nabraska, cleared though customs and importation taxes then 450 a month for 6 years... Not a cheap car if you ask me.

 

[Locke]

If you want to completely remove the EGR system, you will want to block it off at the head and block off where the EGR tube hooks to on the intake manifold. Doing this, though, may or may not trip the ECU's flow test. To prevent the cel, you will have to find some means of keeping the EGR hooked to the intake. You could shorten the EGR pipe and place the valve close to the manifold so it won't be seen, or possibly leave the solenoid intact without the EGR on it, introducing a small leak though the solenoid. This method (which is out of my ass, BTW, and I haven't put any thought into it) would allow you to completely remove the EGR and fully block off the head and intake, while being able to relocate the EGR solenoid to another location in the engine bay. Hopefully in the process, this would allow the vacuum leak introduced by the solenoid when activated to fulfill the flow requirements of the ECU during the EGR flow test.

Tomorrow, when it is light out, I will glance at the engine bay and consider the latter method. (I still have a fully functional EGR system, BTW)

Also, keep in mind that for unknown reasons, not all 2gnt's will throw a flow code. Without any statistical analysis of the reports given, this appears to be random.

 

[nothingfiction]

So is the solenoid on the block or the back of the intake manifold?
This more of what gets me. i would rather keep the egr there (even if it is blocked off) just for appearances reasoning at least. So... Just block the intake mani egr tube. But is there a way of dumping the exhaust from it to the atmosphere or just blocking it off completely? More that kind of thing.
instead of having it go up that tube since (theoretically) using a bypass.
Also, is there a difference between the two, really? i have read about the bypass which just blocks off the heat side but still has the hole for the air flow as to not trip the cel. Then the sandwich method which appears to block the entire egr rendering it obsolete but using a spacer gap for it to "breath".
Am i missing anything?

 

[Locke]

Just sandwich a block-off plate between the head and EGR valve. You can keep the EGR valve there for appearances, it just won't do anything. No worries about the exhaust, it'll be contained in the head and sent along it's merry way out through your muffler. You won't need to block off the EGR tube at the intake manifold unless you are removing the tube. If you are leaving it on, you can leave it the way it is, even hooked to the EGR valve. With the EGR blocked off, the tube won't get hot, or be of any use.

The solenoid valve is right next to the EGR valve.

 

[nothingfiction]

More of what im looking for... But what if you wanted to remove the tube after all that is said and done. As you said, the egr is now useless. As for appearance reasons as in in case a cop does stop and want to take a look under the hood, they will still find the egr right there... But who in their right mind would bother making sure its properly working nor if the exhaust tube is connected. Since the tube wouldn't get hot anymore, and the egr is blocked off, that can be removed too now, right?

 

[Locke]

Absolutely. If the tube is removed the hole in the intake manifold would of course have to be plugged.

 

[nothingfiction]

When the valve is closed, nothing happens. Exhaust will not leak because of the gasket and unhacked block-off plate. When the valve opens, it will draw clean air through the hole in the second block-off plate. (or through a hole drilled into the chamber under the valve, or the notched surface, or where ever we created a leak.)

Keep in mind, doing all this will also allow unfiltered air into the intake. Finding some manner to filter the air would be a good idea.

Something about this part got me. This is what im looking at... by removing the tube and blocking the intake mani side as well we wont have that problem of unfiltered air entering our mani. However, should we block off the exhaust side of the egr as well?