(non-Ebay) Electric Turbocharger (Supercharger?)

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

@teknicalissue, Wouldn't your design be classified as an electric supercharger, since there is no exhaust gasses driving it because there is only a compressor side?

 

[teknicalissue]

Correct, But didn't use a CVT.

I don't disagree with CVT! I had a 2011 CRZ and loved the CVT system on it.

@teknicalissue, Wouldn't your design be classified as an electric supercharger, since there is no exhaust gasses driving it because there is only a compressor side?

You are 100% correct. The reason I call it a turbocharger is because I'm replacing the exhaust housing with an electrical motor. But in a scientifically/political view, This is indeed a supercharger.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

You are 100% correct. The reason I call it a turbocharger is because I'm replacing the exhaust housing with an electrical motor. But in a scientifically/political view, This is indeed a supercharger.

nevertheless, it is badass how big is the shaft on the motor? 5mm? Any idea on motor torque ratings? When will you test pressurization on a simulated intake pipe? Very excited to see finished project

 

[teknicalissue]

nevertheless, it is badass how big is the shaft on the motor? 5mm? Any idea on motor torque ratings? When will you test pressurization on a simulated intake pipe? Very excited to see finished project

The shaft on the motor is 4mm. I don't have torque ratings and have no clue on how to get them. As soon as I'm done figuring out the BB turbo hook up, I'll have pictures AND a video. For giggles though... Picture the below video, and multiply the sound by 100 . It is blowing so much air that I have to have the turbo held down or else it'll push itself:

(THIS IS NOT MY ELECTRIC TURBO! THIS IS SOMETHING SIMILAR I FOUND ON THE NET!)

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[Chumpaumpalumpa]

It is blowing so much air that I have to have the turbo held down or else it'll push itself:

That's what I like to hear! Strap an electric FP Black on your back and you've got yourself a jetpack then. Things I want to know: How fast can you generate 15 psi in a 6 foot by 3 inch tube? How long do the batteries on your current setup last? How many c are they, how much current can they discharge; continuous and burst.
Another cool thing to add, is with this setup, you can locate the "turbo" in a more ideal location, and since the exhaust side is gone, it discharges MUCH cooler air into the intercooler, and creating a larger efficiency range for said turbo. SOOOOOO many advantages to go electric supercharger.... erm, turbo sorry

 

[91-GS]

Will a CVT stand up to the RPM without slipping or simply exploding? A CVT is usually made up of at least two rotating parts and one non-rigid (friction) connection between them. That does not sound suitable for very high RPM, hence the question.

That being said, for a while now i have been thinking about a magnetic CVT system. Think of a two disc CVT (like on some Snapper brand riding mowers) but instead of friction it relies on same idea as roller coaster brakes, basically the fact that if a magnet passes by aluminum or copper it generates a force that tries to stop said magnet.

Imagine, if you will, one disc with magnets around it's circumference. Then imagine another disc, made of solid aluminum, at 90 degrees to the first one if viewed from the side, similar to how two gears would be. Discs are very close, but are not touching. As disc with magnets turns it generates that grabbing force that turns the second disc. The CVT functions just like one in the mover, with movable disc, only now there is no friction, no wear, and much less heat due to lack of slipping.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Will a CVT stand up to the RPM without slipping or simply exploding? A CVT is usually made up of at least three rotating parts and two non-rigid (friction) connections between them. And that does not sound suitable for very high RPM, hence the question.

Yes, procharger uses them on the i-1, as seen earlier. And remember that the internals don't have to be spinning at 150,000 RPM so with proper lubrication, it'll hold up just fine. It's usually torque that causes them to explode. Also there are several different types of CVT; belt driven, chain driven, cone type, etc.
This will give you a basic idea on them if you care to skim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission
Also they experimented with them in f1. While 18,000 RPM is not the 30-40,000 (guessing) that teknicalissue is seeing. The principal stands and remember that was with over 550 hp and pushing the full weight of a car.

 

[91-GS]

And remember that the internals don't have to be spinning at 150,000 RPM so with proper lubrication, it'll hold up just fine. It's usually torque that causes them to explode.

Those are good points. If it's motor-in,turbo-out style then really only the output is going fast. If it's motor-CVT-gearbox-turbo layout then nothing in CVT itself even needs to go fast, although it would need to transmit more torque to transfer same power. Another possibility is motor-gear box-CVT-turbo. That way all components of the CVT spin faster, but torque loads go down.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Those are good points. If it's motor-in,turbo-out style then really only the output is going fast. If it's motor-CVT-gearbox-turbo layout then nothing in CVT itself even needs to go fast, although it would need to transmit more torque to transfer same power. Another possibility is motor-gear box-CVT-turbo. That way all components of the CVT spin faster, but torque loads go down.

Exactly! Although it would be more of a space thing because there is not enough torque or load (remember they are separate things) to make slipping an issue, so that is not so much of a problem. You probably won't even need a second gearbox because the CVT would be able to keep the ratios correct, thus eliminating the second gearbox and having less parasitic loss. Most CVTs are about 85%-90% efficient.

 

[mbyoung424]

Instead of LiPo batteries, why not use a standalone power supply? I have one that converts 120V AC to 0-32V DC and 0-15 Amps. Something similar could be used to run off of the cars 12V DC system and then could have multiple voltage settings for low/med/high boost settings. I don't think LiPo batteries would do well in the engine bay under continuous draw and charge unless this is a drag only application. If the ESC or motor is getting too hot with the cooling fins you could tap into the cooling system and wrap coils around it, provide its own cooling system, or place the ESC in a location where it'd get constant airflow. Your system sounds awesome, best of luck with it.

 

[91-GS]

Power (in watts) has to come from somewhere. Either you have a 100A 12V or a 10A 120V system, it will still be same amount of power and that power gotta be stored somewhere. In other words you can not convert 12V to 120V and expect to use it for something 10 times as powerful.
As far as storing said energy a simple lightweight option comes to mind: capacitors for audio systems. They are made to run on 12V and can discharge quickly providing high amperage for those crucial 10-20 seconds at the track.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Instead of LiPo batteries, why not use a standalone power supply? I have one that converts 120V AC to 0-32V DC and 0-15 Amps. Something similar could be used to run off of the cars 12V DC system and then could have multiple voltage settings for low/med/high boost settings. I don't think LiPo batteries would do well in the engine bay under continuous draw and charge unless this is a drag only application. If the ESC or motor is getting too hot with the cooling fins you could tap into the cooling system and wrap coils around it, provide its own cooling system, or place the ESC in a location where it'd get constant airflow. Your system sounds awesome, best of luck with it.

Typical 2cell lipos can discharge 120+ amps burst and 50+ continuous, hence the torque and quick spool. Current is torque and Voltage is speed.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Also, having the batteries and ESC in the cabin will keep them from overheating. Just make sure the lipo don't bloat!!!!!

 

[mitsubishikid]

man that turbos spinning real fast, how much theoretical hp do you expect to gain out of your current setup?

I might be interested in beta testing your kit too [not on my dsm but my csm might make a nice sleeper out of it].

 

[mbyoung424]

Typical 2cell lipos can discharge 120+ amps burst and 50+ continuous, hence the torque and quick spool. Current is torque and Voltage is speed.

Aren't most LiPo discharge rates in to 10-35C range? I didn't know they make 50C continuous and 120C Max LiPos, but I've only used them for RC applications. A 1000 mAh LiPo would be discharged in 30 seconds at 120 Amps and 72 seconds at 50 Amps. Why not run off of the factory alternator that produces 85 Amps or get a higher powered after market alternator. Even if you were to run a switch directly off of the battery that would last far longer than any LiPo and be much safer. You'd just need to add a voltage regulator or get a 12V ESC/motor combo. Using a LiPo setup seems to make this for drag only and I would think people would get more of a benefit with a smaller turbo like this in rally or road racing where cumulative time lost to turbo lag would be more significant. Then again, if you are just using a small turbo to power a larger turbo (I believe that was stated earlier) you could have an on/off switch linked to the clutch pedal to turn the motor on once the clutch pedal is released at launch so that battery useage was more efficient.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

I'm talking RC lipos too. Thunder power makes a racing lipo and it's only a 2 cell and is 65c and 130 burst. I've started a car with it . On a mamba motor rc 1/10 scale car it'd last an hour beating hard on it so the batteries last long, although an alternator design would be better real world.

 

[curt-s]

Its the same as the standard version

What? No, what I'm asking the OP is, what air volume at 20PSI (a function of the compressor wheel used, compressor outlet and piping diameter, etc.) As in, a 14b at 20psi is much different than an HX40 at 20psi.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

What? No, what I'm asking the OP is, what air volume at 20PSI (a function of the compressor wheel used, compressor outlet and piping diameter, etc.) As in, a 14b at 20psi is much different than an HX40 at 20psi.

Right, Its the same compressor side as a 14g with the same housing and wheel and everything so it flows exactly the same amount because nothing about the compressor has changed, only how the "turbo" (Now electrically driven supercharger) is being driven; exhaust vs. electric motor.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Right, Its the same compressor side as a 14g with the same housing and wheel and everything so it flows exactly the same amount because nothing about the compressor has changed, only how the "turbo" (Now electrically driven supercharger) is being driven; exhaust vs. electric motor.

Unless he meant 14b, because he had a GSX not a starion. In that case, it flows as much as a 14b.

 

[teknicalissue]

So I've been playing around with the 3D printer a bit and created a 3d model of what is going to hold the electrical motor shaft and Turbo Shaft in place. Due to obvious gear related reasons, The shafts must a certain distance away so the gears wont bind in hence the need of this bracket. Just figured I'd give you guys a little bit of more detail of what I'm creating...

On a side note, Yes this is ABS plastic and yes, I'm concerned that the shaft spinning under the engine bay at 150k+ will generate heat thanks to friction and potentially tear/melt the plastic. I'm planning of potentially getting this machined (once I get a working prototype) which will make the potential final product a metal. Still.. I need to think of how I can better alleviate some of that metal on metal friction.. Any body got ideas? This bracket is a must.. I'll also be adding a small box attached to the bracket which will house some sort of Gear oil as the this is a must for the Brass gears I'm using.

hmm.. Perhaps add grease between the holds for the plastic application?

This is what I'm printing out and testing with.. I figure I need another latch mechanism for the middle.. Or I could seal it with JBweld or something similar.... Still need to think about the latching mechanism on metal brackets.

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Instead of LiPo batteries, why not use a standalone power supply? I have one that converts 120V AC to 0-32V DC and 0-15 Amps. Something similar could be used to run off of the cars 12V DC system and then could have multiple voltage settings for low/med/high boost settings. I don't think LiPo batteries would do well in the engine bay under continuous draw and charge unless this is a drag only application. If the ESC or motor is getting too hot with the cooling fins you could tap into the cooling system and wrap coils around it, provide its own cooling system, or place the ESC in a location where it'd get constant airflow. Your system sounds awesome, best of luck with it.

I could make this an option for those who want to take this route with non LiPo batteries.. I'm not fixated on the technology by any means, I just found it easier to work with and easier to implement rather than lugging a big ole lead acid battery in my office. Once I get a working Prototype, I might just offer the stand alone turbo as an option where people can plug in their own battery of choice and what not... Just gotta becareful to make it obvious that I'm not liable for any poor hook-ups

Power (in watts) has to come from somewhere. Either you have a 100A 12V or a 10A 120V system, it will still be same amount of power and that power gotta be stored somewhere. In other words you can not convert 12V to 120V and expect to use it for something 10 times as powerful.
As far as storing said energy a simple lightweight option comes to mind: capacitors for audio systems. They are made to run on 12V and can discharge quickly providing high amperage for those crucial 10-20 seconds at the track.

I'll do research on these capacitors.. Perhaps this could be my next attempt at a second prototype? It has to be compatible with an ESC though.. I can't just hit the motor in full gear.. The gears have to adjust to the torque at a reasonable speed.

Also, having the batteries and ESC in the cabin will keep them from overheating. Just make sure the lipo don't bloat!!!!!

Agreed.. I'm a little weary as LiPo's are indeed dangerous if handled with improper care.. I'd be hesitant to sell LiPo's with the kit and then get handed down a lawsuit for a burned up cabin.

man that turbos spinning real fast, how much theoretical hp do you expect to gain out of your current setup?

I might be interested in beta testing your kit too [not on my dsm but my csm might make a nice sleeper out of it].

My Goal for this setup is to get instantaneous power at the lower end of the power band similar to hybrid/electric cars. I'd expect to see decent low end gains due and a nice transition to top end as a bigger turbo spools up. I can't give any figures because I haven't had a prototype I could easily put in a car (I'm working on this now though)

All add you to the list of people interested and let you know when I have a working prototype for you to try. Thanks for volunteering!

Aren't most LiPo discharge rates in to 10-35C range? I didn't know they make 50C continuous and 120C Max LiPos, but I've only used them for RC applications. A 1000 mAh LiPo would be discharged in 30 seconds at 120 Amps and 72 seconds at 50 Amps. Why not run off of the factory alternator that produces 85 Amps or get a higher powered after market alternator. Even if you were to run a switch directly off of the battery that would last far longer than any LiPo and be much safer. You'd just need to add a voltage regulator or get a 12V ESC/motor combo. Using a LiPo setup seems to make this for drag only and I would think people would get more of a benefit with a smaller turbo like this in rally or road racing where cumulative time lost to turbo lag would be more significant. Then again, if you are just using a small turbo to power a larger turbo (I believe that was stated earlier) you could have an on/off switch linked to the clutch pedal to turn the motor on once the clutch pedal is released at launch so that battery useage was more efficient.

You are indeed correct! The batteries again, are for my ease of use and potential sell-ability. this is still subject to change! I'm sure that there will be "Drag-Only" kits, "rally" kits, and "Street" kits once I get the ball rolling. As of now though, I'm working on getting you guys some results, numbers, and videos.

What? No, what I'm asking the OP is, what air volume at 20PSI (a function of the compressor wheel used, compressor outlet and piping diameter, etc.) As in, a 14b at 20psi is much different than an HX40 at 20psi.

I don't have the proper tools to measure CFM but I can tell you that I'm at full boost in less than a quarter of a second. If you have any way I could get more information for you, feel free to chime in! once again.. I'm not a turbo expert or anything of the sort. Just a guy who thought about something while in the shower

Unless he meant 14b, because he had a GSX not a starion. In that case, it flows as much as a 14b.

indeed, I meant 14b... Sorry

 

[91-GS]

Adjust your model so you can install some bushings in it. Something as simple as a piece of copper tube from hardware store should do since this is a prototype. At least this way it will last a bit longer. Actually, with some 3D printers you can incorporate those bushings directly into the plastic model. Just have to pause the print and insert the bushing in before resuming. Or epoxy it in after everything is done.

Better yet make this plate out of aluminum. It is soft enough to be worked with hand tools, yet can withstand temperature much better than ABS.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Bore a hole and use 2 needle bearings like they do on gyroscopes.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Aluminum is also a good idea

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

I'll do research on these capacitors.. Perhaps this could be my next attempt at a second prototype? It has to be compatible with an ESC though.. I can't just hit the motor in full gear.. The gears have to adjust to the torque at a reasonable speed.

You want to look up super capacitors! My father is an electronics engineer so I get to play around all this stuff. Super caps are not very power dense yet bacause they dont use chemical reactions, they instead store energy in little cells if you will and thus can discharge stupid amounts of current...... like 3x what those lipos can easily. Also, they are very expensive. My dad just got a big one hes playing around with, I'll find out who makes that particular one.

 

[91-GS]

Pipe in NOS where it will turn a small turbine (similar to that used in an air grinder) on the way to the motor. That turbine will power the turbo. Basically it's a 2-in-1 system, NOS and turbocharging. Sounds nice, but i have a feeling it's not exactly possible for whatever reason. Maybe it won't spin fast enough or something.