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(non-Ebay) Electric Turbocharger (Supercharger?)

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teknicalissue

10+ Year Contributor
303
3
Oct 18, 2010
Front Royal, Virginia
Hey guys!

I haven't been here in a while but felt like I should post here since the DSM crowd is by far the best community I've been a part of. That being said, Ever since I sold my 90 GSX and moved to Ohio; I've been working on something that's been worked on before but abandoned. The Electric Supercharger/Turbocharger. In a nutshell I found a motor that will spin at 40,000 RPM'S and built a speed increasing gearing system that is 1:4 for a total of 160,000 theoretical RPM'S.

Without giving out too much details on the system until It's ready to be released, I've effectively removed the exhaust housing from the turbo and replaced the exhaust turbine shaft with a geared shaft.

After a couple of tests, I can verify that this system is producing 15 PSI in less than a quarter a second. I was able to get these readings by attaching a leak tester at the end of the turbo and fired up the motor (Yes I'm aware the long pipes could affect the time to build boost).

I will also be posting pictures of the set up once I print out a proper case for the motor/gearbox so stay tuned.

To further explain the system I have now, the motor is currently being powered by 4 LiPo batteries (2 series + 2 parallel) and controlled by an ESC that is controlled by an Arduino Leonardo board. When the car starts up, the compressor wheel spins at 30,000 RPM's and will increase the speed to 160k theoretical RPM'S only when full throttle occurs (reading TPS voltage).

The turbo set up will have to be a compound set-up as this is for small-large turbo applications. In a nutshell, the small turbo outlet is feeding the big turbo inlet and the filter will be at the small turbo inlet. The reason for this is because the larger the turbo the more "power" is required to spin and maintain boost which is why I'm only planning to create an electric turbo out of the 14g (possibly smaller).

That being said, I am not an expert. I am just a guy with a full time job and an idea that is apparently working so I have a couple of questions for you guys.

I know I need to set up some sort of oiling system for my custom gearbox. Does oil need to be pumped (I'd assume so with the smaller gear spinning at 150k RPM)? or is there a way I can place the gears so they will move oil on their own (2 gear system). Now that the turbo is no longer attached to the exhaust housing, will the turbo still need to be fed oil? or can I close the oil feed lines with oil already in the turbo. Would this be something the DSM community be interested in if I can create a polished tested product? and more importantly, Are there tuners interesting in testing this electric turbo? I say tuners because that massive bump in PSI in the low RPM's range will require fine tuning.

what do you guys think?
 
What is voltage/amperage that this turbo takes? And why not use existing turbo oil feed to lubricate the gear box and perhaps cool the electric motor itself.
 
I've heard of this concept before, and it's very intriguing. Hard to generate enough sustainable watts though to make it feasible. I'm curious, are those lipo's charging while the vehicle is running? If so how do you plan on charging them fast enough to keep up without burning them up? I'm assuming your using brush-less motors (inrunners yes?)? I have to wonder how they will hold up in such a high heat and constant use environment. Can't wait to see the photos and read the updates on your progress! :)
 
I'm good friends with the man who originally held the patent for this in the late 80's, his name is Gary. Used to use a little beer car motor and it worked phenomenal with 1980's tech. Will be significantly better with today's!! We're starting work on a long term project that will yield great results hopefully.
 
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Something like this motor would work excellent even with very large turbos as long as you could find a way to cool the thing, liquid cool with small radiator and run 10S LiPo batteries with a regen and maybe solar energy capture as the roof (yes, like a prius). That would kick ass and eliminate the need for anti-lag and thus extending the life of the turbo. You would still need 2-step probably but could set it much lower and just spool off the electric motor.
http://www.castlecreations.com/products/2028-extreme-motor.html
 
There was recently a thread on this, http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/electric-turbochargers.487019/#post-153477428

Lot's of good information there :) Check it out!

Indeed! Definitely some good reading!

What is voltage/amperage that this turbo takes? And why not use existing turbo oil feed to lubricate the gear box and perhaps cool the electric motor itself.

This is actually a pretty interesting little motor. it is 5020 kv motor running at 14.8 volts. The amperage at full load is around 100 ~ 110A. From my testing, I am able to put a couple of computer fans around the motor which helps with the heat. I'd say that the ESC is actually getting hotter than the electric motor and would be the point of failure if cooling wasn't adequate. Mind you this is me testing the motor in 5-15 Second bursts (Assume track applications with 10-13 second quarter mile times).

I've heard of this concept before, and it's very intriguing. Hard to generate enough sustainable watts though to make it feasible. I'm curious, are those lipo's charging while the vehicle is running? If so how do you plan on charging them fast enough to keep up without burning them up? I'm assuming your using brush-less motors (inrunners yes?)? I have to wonder how they will hold up in such a high heat and constant use environment. Can't wait to see the photos and read the updates on your progress! :)

This is actually one of the things I still have to work out. Currently, I'm charging the LiPo batteries as you normally would in a wall charger. I have to think up of a way to hook it up to the car's alternator and somehow charge the batteries without compromising the vehicles battery in itself. Worst case scenario.. you charge the batteries the night before the track? LOL Yes, these are brushless motors! similar to the ones found in RC boats. I live in Ohio now, so if anyone wants to test the system with me I'd be happy to get results of usage and normal heat! (I own a stock 2005 WRX now so any power this turbo can bring might kill my car... I'd feel a lot more comfortable testing this in a built car that can handle the power... I could try low boost applications though... on my wrx)

I'm good friends with the man who originally held the patent for this in the late 80's, his name is Gary. Used to use a little beer car motor and it worked phenomenal with 1980's tech. Will be significantly better with today's!! We're starting work on a long term project that will yield great results hopefully.

That's great to hear! Hopefully we can start bringing in electric turbo's to the car community!

Merc posted this on the other thread. It's a good read.

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Yep! It's been done before... But it's never been aggressively followed or supported which stinks.

Yep so either go 48v system or have onboard batteries with some kind of regen. cool thing is that you could run a button for overboosting with the right gearing.

Actually, the battery system is only 14.8 volts! I was told it couldn't be done LOL but unless my boost leak tester is off, It's definitely holding PSI like a champ!

Something like this motor would work excellent even with very large turbos as long as you could find a way to cool the thing, liquid cool with small radiator and run 10S LiPo batteries with a regen and maybe solar energy capture as the roof (yes, like a prius). That would kick ass and eliminate the need for anti-lag and thus extending the life of the turbo. You would still need 2-step probably but could set it much lower and just spool off the electric motor.
http://www.castlecreations.com/products/2028-extreme-motor.html

That's a good idea! I could potentially hook up a solar powered system to charge the batteries and keep out of the cars electrical system! I want this to be plug-n-play with little wire tampering and other shenanigans. That's a very power thirsty motor and expensive!!!

Once I get a product out there... I could potentially convert existing good 14G's for about $450 dollars. If I could tweak the gearing system a little bit.. I might be able to make boost on a 16G but that is yet to be tested.

The question is... Is it worth it for you guys to pay $450 dollars for instant boost? I would probably market this as an effective $450 dollar supercharger without installation hassles :)
 
I want this to be plug-n-play with little wire tampering and other shenanigans. That's a very power thirsty motor and expensive!!!
Yes it is, but will work well on its own power supply for turbos larger that a 20g. Specifically the 6266 range and similar turbos would really benefit from that because they would get to peak efficiency in about 5-700ths of a second. you could easily run 37v 10s Lipo cells with 70c and 200c burst, which is what matters in this application. I REALLY hope to see you make some good progress in this area :thumb: will be following
 
Yes it is, but will work well on its own power supply for turbos larger that a 20g. Specifically the 6266 range and similar turbos would really benefit from that because they would get to peak efficiency in about 5-700ths of a second. you could easily run 37v 10s Lipo cells with 70c and 200c burst, which is what matters in this application. I REALLY hope to see you make some good progress in this area :thumb: will be following

Could you imagine a 20g at max boost in less than a second? XD
 
Could you imagine a 20g at max boost in less than a second? XD

Absolutely LOL I'm trying to build one!! Won't be finished for a couple of years though, not to high on my priority list just yet.
There is 3 motors you would need. the one you are using for 14b sized stuff, a velenion 1/10 scale brushless motor for 50 trim stuff, and that 2028 for BIG stuff. Then just gear accordingly or best case, use a small CVT. That's completely possible and efficient for this concept. Also a clutch could be added so the motor doesn't de-spool the turbo and a few other tweaks I have on existing designs that fix some issues.
 
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Might have missed it, but have you tried your system on a running engine?
And what about an electric assist turbo instead of fully electric? A motor-generator is built into the turbo. When it's time to go, electricity spins up the turbo and keeps it's speed up regardless of what engine is doing, then while driving back from finish line the turbo is acting as a generator and helping to recharge the battery. Basically similar to F1's KERS system, only more affordable.
 
Might have missed it, but have you tried your system on a running engine?
And what about an electric assist turbo instead of fully electric? A motor-generator is built into the turbo. When it's time to go, electricity spins up the turbo and keeps it's speed up regardless of what engine is doing, then while driving back from finish line the turbo is acting as a generator and helping to recharge the battery. Basically similar to F1's KERS system, only more affordable.
That's what I'm talking about. E-Assist is much more efficient. You don't want regen off the turbo because it will de-spool it and the energy it takes to spool it up again is more than you regenerated, plus it costs precious milliseconds. That's why i suggested solar panels or another small alternator tied to an inverter or something. Have it assisted through clutch and CVT is ultimate and you could have it so you never drop under 10psi if you wanted in a "race" mode with the CVT then 5psi in "sport" and regular spool in "normal". That's easy peasy. possibilities are endless on that setup, thats why its so great.
 
You would want order to go Motor>CVT>Clutch>Shaft into turbo, so that when the clutch is disengaged for high RPM turbo operation, it only has to spin a shaft instead of a small transmission. A 7 or 8 mm shaft would suffice with a carrier bearing or pilot bearing in the end of the turbine housing so that it is balanced and stable even up to 200,000 RPM.
 
Oh and to the OP, I'm available for beta testing or otherwise field testing!!! :D :p Which ESC are you using BTW? You could liquid cool it if the fans are noisy. I assume the LiPos and speed controller are in the cabin, yes?
 
Might have missed it, but have you tried your system on a running engine?
And what about an electric assist turbo instead of fully electric? A motor-generator is built into the turbo. When it's time to go, electricity spins up the turbo and keeps it's speed up regardless of what engine is doing, then while driving back from finish line the turbo is acting as a generator and helping to recharge the battery. Basically similar to F1's KERS system, only more affordable.

I want to keep things simple right now.. As I said before, I'm just a guy with an idea. I could implement solar panels due to them being simple, but I wouldn't know anything about regen systems. A turbo regen system would require my turbo to require another turbo as well as dissembling their current turbo or having to buy another turbo so my turbo could work. Although I'm not against the idea at a later time (When I have time, money, and resources) if this kicks off; I would rather first introduce a drop-n-go turbo that produces real results. I want those 1G N/A guys to be able to put this baby in their cars and now have a legit 1G (with supporting mods of course) without having to monkey around with exhaust stuff or even oil related stuff! My goal here is to keep this under $600 with $450 being the idea price and I fear making this system too advanced might raise the price. I have not been able to test this on a running engine yet. I will do it on my wrx on low boost.

That's what I'm talking about. E-Assist is much more efficient. You don't want regen off the turbo because it will de-spool it and the energy it takes to spool it up again is more than you regenerated, plus it costs precious milliseconds. That's why i suggested solar panels or another small alternator tied to an inverter or something. Have it assisted through clutch and CVT is ultimate and you could have it so you never drop under 10psi if you wanted in a "race" mode with the CVT then 5psi in "sport" and regular spool in "normal". That's easy peasy. possibilities are endless on that setup, thats why its so great.
You would want order to go Motor>CVT>Clutch>Shaft into turbo, so that when the clutch is disengaged for high RPM turbo operation, it only has to spin a shaft instead of a small transmission. A 7 or 8 mm shaft would suffice with a carrier bearing or pilot bearing in the end of the turbine housing so that it is balanced and stable even up to 200,000 RPM.

unfortunately, I have limited knowledge on CVT systems. I wouldn't know how to build one from scratch unless I reached to a CVT box vendor that could design and create a custom one for me. I'd love to give this a try if I had the money and the knowledge. I might even go this route if the 14g is a success! But again, that depends on my current system working first :p The simpler I can keep this system the better! I do acknowledge though that having to recharge the batteries manually is a PITA and there needs to be a better user friendly solution. solar panels are easy to install and easy to attach and could make them optional for those who don't want to drill holes in their roof's for the cables. It's all about the pricing, the user experience, and the installation.


Oh and to the OP, I'm available for beta testing or otherwise field testing!!! :D :p Which ESC are you using BTW? You could liquid cool it if the fans are noisy. I assume the LiPos and speed controller are in the cabin, yes?

Good to hear! I will definitely keep you in mind! I've actually partnered up with a Chinese company that creates small motors and ESC's so the motor comes with the ESC for it already. I would like to keep the company private as of now (will surely make the reveal once I get a product out there) for the sake of privacy and what not.

Vary Great info here, I will admit when I saw the title for this post, I initially thought it was another one of those intake fan Ideas LOL... I'd love to see something like this on our cars, teknicalissue any more info/pictures your willing to share here would be much appreciated, some really awesome stuff here :thumb:.

Don't worry! I'll get some pictures of the set-up once I get something nice to show you guys! I'm working with a turbo company now and they are providing me with BB turbo's/parts to try my system out on :)
 
Good idea to keep it simple for now. Less stuff to go wrong until you've effectively proved the concept, and priced for more people to try out means more ideas and recommendations will be had sooner, so smart move. The only thing that NEEDS to be changed then is the way the batteries are charged. I'm sure you already know you cant just hook lipos up to a power source and expect them to be okay because of the balancer on them, I also think solar panels only will be enough to effectively charge them. There needs to be another power source as well, and a LiPo cutoff voltage thing so the batteries don't waste themselves dropping to a lower voltge than intended. There's a LOT of people that can screw that up especially, the key is to make everything just like if it were released by the factory that way, as fool proof as possible. Can't wait to see what it does on the wrx. I think your setup where it is based on the tps voltage is a great idea, as it will drastically change the way you daily drive it for the better, always being in the efficiency range of the turbo. Is the motor AC or DC, I didn't catch which motor you are utilizing. Also with the arduino, you should program in a sport mode so whenever the throttle is depressed, the turbo spins to full boost no matter what voltage the tps is giving off. You could tie in into some unused button or something. That shouldnt be to hard to do, but then you might need 2 tunes as well :/
 
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The front mount Paxton supercharger that is driven off the crank in v8 setups used to use a gear setup, and it had a sealed oil lubrication setup.
 
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