new to DSMs need a little advice

[95z286speed]

hey guys, I am new to dsms, but i am not the owner, my girlfriend recently bought a 92 eagle talon tsi awd with the 5 speed manual that was sitting for 7 to 8 years in a shed.

Well first off we just try to get it started to see how it was running, it has 113 k on it and it is bone stock. We put in new plugs NGK, new wires, and the fuel pump was shot so we got an oem replacement, but we have a walboro ready for it once we get a fuel pressure regulator, so it cranked to life, we didn't run it long because we didnt trust the timing belt, but the good new was no knocks or anything in that nature.

Well a few weeks ago we got around to pulling the motor and tranny out, we changed the

Gates timing belt and bearings, the hydrolic tensioner, water pump, valve cover gasket, oil pan gasket, intake manifold gasket, flushed the rad (which was really nasty), changed the tranny and transfer case fluids, new oil and oil filter, and shifter bushings.

Well it cranks right up now, but there are a few things that we need to figure out.

1. before the guy that we bought the car from parked the car he had the clutch changed at a shop, what i don't get was he said as soon as he got it back it was grinding gears...i personally would have taken it back right away but for some reason he didnt. Well we noticed that the shifter bushings were shot, we got aluminum ones.

We go for a drive, pedal engages close to the floor, so i am assuming i need to bleed the system, check the master and slave, etc. Well we take it out for a drive, goes into all gears without a problem, go to shift from first to 2nd with clutch pedal on floor and easy shifting, grinds, 2nd to 3rd grinds, but 3rd to 4th and 4th to 5th don't seem to be doing it that often.

So we get back to the house park it and let it idle for a few min, has a boost leak, ill talk about that in a second, we go to move it into the garage, it was sitting in neutral with ebrake up, put it in first but it grinds going in.

I am thinking that either A, system needs to be bleed and adjusted, or b, clutch disk is backwards, i have heard that it can be done on these cars.

2. Was my first time doing timing belt, timing seems to be a little off, i think i need to adjust the cam position sensor, but i also need to go back and tighten the timing belt because it has a little too much play in it.

3. im pretty sure it has a big boost leak because when i go pedal to the floor around 3500 + the car will just shudder and not accelerate. going to build my own boost leak tester thing.

4. timing - idles a little high, tried the method on vfaq for adjusting timing after grounding the plug by the battery and the pin inside the car. it helped but the idle is sticking a little and when you drive and push the clutch it will drop to 500 pulse up to 1000, and do that 2 to 3 times and then idle fine.

The main problem that i need to get fixed this weekend is the boost leaks and tranny, i am hoping the tranny isn't screwed from the grinding. but any help on any of these problems will be greatly appreciated

thanks Ian

 

[FLASH1970]

It sounds like you have a nice little project and have a good start on it. I would bleed the clutch system, adjust the clutch slave under the dash, and hope the synchros aren't bad in the trans. If it still grinds after adjusting the clutch system, pull the trans to make sure the clutch is on properly. What trans fluid did you put in the trans? Check the vaccum lines and make sure everything is hooked up. That can cause your idle to act screwy. The timing belt has the hydraulic tensioner so there's not much you can do to tighten the timing belt. Check the VFAQ to make sure you did it right. If the car is stock, I wouldn't mess with the cam sensor.

Welcome and good luck. Post up a couple pics of the car too.

 

[95z286speed]

Here is what it looked like on the day we got it. I don't have the new pictures atm but ill try to post them up this weekend when i go back over to work on it

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Well i will look for boost leaks but when I push down on the timing belt it would move around 1/4 of an inch, but i will double check it, my brother didn't believe me when i said it looked loose..but one of my "older more experienced" friends said it looked a bit loose, but i will worry about that later

 

[Tinted1gTurbo]

I would also say the worst thing would be the synchros. Does it grind putting in into reverse?

 

[FLASH1970]

I think a 1/4" is normal. I've had that much before. There's not really a belt deflcetion spec. There's only the tensioner spec.
See step 35 (figure 21)

Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

If you measured and were within spec, I'd leave the timing belt alone. The car looks nice by the way.

 

[Sp1kE]

Check the shifter cable bracket on the tranny, I had mine loose and it would pivot when i moved the cables, and wouldnt move as far as they should, grinded alot.

Look up welding the clutch pedal/assembly. I hear its a bi*** of a job but that could be your clutch close to the floor issue, aswell as some of the shifting issues.

Looks like you are on the right track, good luck.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

I've had and am dealing with all of these issues.

1 : The Clutch - Check underneath the dash. There is a bolt. Make sure the pedal is up all of the way and crank down on that bolt if it's loose. It's hard to get the disk in backwards, I've tried for the hell of it. Go ahead and bleed the Slave Cylinder. Be sure when you do, to push IN on the pushord to compress the pocket of air from the back of the slave cylinder. otherwise it will not bleed correctly. My first bleed turned into 12 until I did that. After than and tightening the pedal assembly bolt, all was well.

2 : Timing Belt - I noticed when I did mine, that although it LOOKED even on the Cam gears, it wasn't. Take a nailfile, flat edge, or something thin... remove the valve cover, mark where the lines are so that you can see them from the back of the cams. Use 2 17's and adjust the cams in line with the file orwhatever you're using with the surface of the head so it is flush. You can't really line it up right because of the angle (If you're doing this with the engine in the car)

2a : Also, make sure that you're careful with the timing down below. Once you get the timing belt on, crank it clockwise with a 1/2' breaker bar (is it 1/2? I can't recall) untill EVERYTHING falls back in line. If everything is good, you're good to go. If it hangs up, you hear a faint click, or the lines don't line up after the 4th - 5th revolution, start over. Note : The tensioner can be a b**** to get back on using everyday tools

3 : Now would be a good time to eliminate the Balance shafts. You'll get a bit more HP, more oil pressure, and FEEL a little vibration over 4k. It won't actually cause more, it'll just allow you to feel a little more. You can read up on it here on the forums somewhere.

4 : A good thing I'd do is to run some seafoam through it. That stuff works wonders. Haven't done it with my GSX yet, but suck half a can through a vaccuum hose into the intake, pour some in the oil, and then kill the car. Pour about 2 caps in each sparkplug hole, let it set for an hour, and then start the car. ;D Hurray for cabron burning! And for the 007 Smokecloud you get. Change oil, plugs, and oil filter.

5 : Drain the tranny fluid. I've learned that the drain plug is a B**** to remove (at least on mine). Tos sin a few quarts of Synchromesh and go for it. That stuff works wonders on our trannies.

5a : Now check your linkages. Remove the gear selection cable from the selector arm. Get in the car, put the shifter in 4th, and adjust the cable so as the eye of the shifter is as close as possible to simply slipping on the shifter arm. Then put the cable on, cotter pin it, remove shifter from gear. It'd be a good time to check your cable shifter boots. If these tear, it effects the cable alignment. Either repair, replace, or electrical tape (use enough, it looks decent and work wonderfully. Sounds Ghetto, I know, but you work with what you've got)

^^ Hope any of this helps.

 

[95z286speed]

I've had and am dealing with all of these issues.

1 : The Clutch - Check underneath the dash. There is a bolt. Make sure the pedal is up all of the way and crank down on that bolt if it's loose. It's hard to get the disk in backwards, I've tried for the hell of it. Go ahead and bleed the Slave Cylinder. Be sure when you do, to push IN on the pushord to compress the pocket of air from the back of the slave cylinder. otherwise it will not bleed correctly. My first bleed turned into 12 until I did that. After than and tightening the pedal assembly bolt, all was well.

2 : Timing Belt - I noticed when I did mine, that although it LOOKED even on the Cam gears, it wasn't. Take a nailfile, flat edge, or something thin... remove the valve cover, mark where the lines are so that you can see them from the back of the cams. Use 2 17's and adjust the cams in line with the file orwhatever you're using with the surface of the head so it is flush. You can't really line it up right because of the angle (If you're doing this with the engine in the car)

2a : Also, make sure that you're careful with the timing down below. Once you get the timing belt on, crank it clockwise with a 1/2' breaker bar (is it 1/2? I can't recall) untill EVERYTHING falls back in line. If everything is good, you're good to go. If it hangs up, you hear a faint click, or the lines don't line up after the 4th - 5th revolution, start over. Note : The tensioner can be a b**** to get back on using everyday tools

3 : Now would be a good time to eliminate the Balance shafts. You'll get a bit more HP, more oil pressure, and FEEL a little vibration over 4k. It won't actually cause more, it'll just allow you to feel a little more. You can read up on it here on the forums somewhere.

4 : A good thing I'd do is to run some seafoam through it. That stuff works wonders. Haven't done it with my GSX yet, but suck half a can through a vaccuum hose into the intake, pour some in the oil, and then kill the car. Pour about 2 caps in each sparkplug hole, let it set for an hour, and then start the car. ;D Hurray for cabron burning! And for the 007 Smokecloud you get. Change oil, plugs, and oil filter.

5 : Drain the tranny fluid. I've learned that the drain plug is a B**** to remove (at least on mine). Tos sin a few quarts of Synchromesh and go for it. That stuff works wonders on our trannies.

5a : Now check your linkages. Remove the gear selection cable from the selector arm. Get in the car, put the shifter in 4th, and adjust the cable so as the eye of the shifter is as close as possible to simply slipping on the shifter arm. Then put the cable on, cotter pin it, remove shifter from gear. It'd be a good time to check your cable shifter boots. If these tear, it effects the cable alignment. Either repair, replace, or electrical tape (use enough, it looks decent and work wonderfully. Sounds Ghetto, I know, but you work with what you've got)

^^ Hope any of this helps.

1. yeah i was reading up on that

2. it seemed to be lined up, but couldn't i just check it with a timing light?

3. balance shafts might have to wait unless its really going to effect something majorly.

4. seafoam is on the list..its grungy in there, was expecting it and when i pulled the oil pan it was confirmed, but hey all of the crank bearings are good, nothing is loose.

5. tranny was drained and fresh fluid (75w-90) was put in both in the tranny and transfer case. is syncromesh an additive or actually a full fluid?

5a. is there a write up somewhere with pictures...i need pictures for that one (visual learner here) we did put in new bushings, copper ones but i will check out the thing for pivoting, and it did not grind in reverse at all

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

1. yeah i was reading up on that

2. it seemed to be lined up, but couldn't i just check it with a timing light?

3. balance shafts might have to wait unless its really going to effect something majorly.

4. seafoam is on the list..its grungy in there, was expecting it and when i pulled the oil pan it was confirmed, but hey all of the crank bearings are good, nothing is loose.

5. tranny was drained and fresh fluid (75w-90) was put in both in the tranny and transfer case. is syncromesh an additive or actually a full fluid?

5a. is there a write up somewhere with pictures...i need pictures for that one (visual learner here) we did put in new bushings, copper ones but i will check out the thing for pivoting, and it did not grind in reverse at all

2 : You can check the crank with the timing light, though, I don't believe that's going to effect your cams. Just a little bit of a misadjustment and one of your cam gears could be off a tooth. It won't DAMAGE anything immediately, but the car will not run to spec

3 : Balance Shaft Removal = More Power and More Fuell Pressure. Drawback - You feel a little vibration.

4 : Good. That stuff works miracles.

5 : Synchromesh is an actual fluid. It was actually made to work with our transmissions. This stuff works gloriously with our transmissions and I'm sure that at least 95% of the people here can vouche for that. I'm serious, give it a try. You'll notice a significant difference. Ever since I tried it, I use nothing else.

Edit : I forgot the cable adjustment thing. I just found a quick write-up. All you do is shift the shifter into 4th with the cable off. (The cable on the left side when you're facing the front of the engine. ) and then go inside the car, and adjust the little screw until the eye of the shifter bushing is as close as it can get to slipping onto the shifter arm on the transmission again.

 

[FLASH1970]

Go to your GM dealer and pick up a few quarts of GM Synchromesh for the trans.

 

[95z286speed]

well damn my brother for not googling enough for what to put in the tranny. Oh well though we will get that in there but we should be able to drive around with this fresh stuff for a little while unless it still grinds after i attempt everything else with the clutch.

timing belt should be an easyish fix, just the hassle of doing it in the car, if we get time this weekend we might seafoam it and hopefully that helps.

For the boost leak we had to reuse the J-pipe gasket, so i am assuming that is where a big leak is. But we are going to make the 5 buck boost leak gauge and look for any more. Do i need to get a new J-pipe gasket or i have read that people just put silicon around it. will that work for a temp fix?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

well damn my brother for not googling enough for what to put in the tranny. Oh well though we will get that in there but we should be able to drive around with this fresh stuff for a little while unless it still grinds after i attempt everything else with the clutch.

timing belt should be an easyish fix, just the hassle of doing it in the car, if we get time this weekend we might seafoam it and hopefully that helps.

For the boost leak we had to reuse the J-pipe gasket, so i am assuming that is where a big leak is. But we are going to make the 5 buck boost leak gauge and look for any more. Do i need to get a new J-pipe gasket or i have read that people just put silicon around it. will that work for a temp fix?

You can use any fluid in there.... but nothing really works as well as Synchromesh for our trannies.

The timing belt is a bit of a pain. I did my N/T while it was in the car. The Turbo doesn't seem much more fun. I should do mine...

And yes... use a heavy sealant and that gasket should hold if it wasn't in poor condition, though as all would suggest, Replace it. If you can't then modify it to work. Trial and error my friend, Trial and error.

 

[dustkrock]

For the boost leak test if you don't want to go through the hassle of making one you can get a small propane torch DO NOT IGNITE IT but open the valve up and go around all your. Intake fittings if you gear a slight rev up that's where your leak is

Instead of a boost leak test because that will boy show you where your leak is if you have one take a little propane torch and just open the valeve do boy ignite just open the valve and go around every fitting on your intake if it revs up your have found your leak or leaks

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

For the boost leak test if you don't want to go through the hassle of making one you can get a small propane torch DO NOT IGNITE IT but open the valve up and go around all your. Intake fittings if you gear a slight rev up that's where your leak is

Instead of a boost leak test because that will boy show you where your leak is if you have one take a little propane torch and just open the valeve do boy ignite just open the valve and go around every fitting on your intake if it revs up your have found your leak or leaks

Hahah. Creative.

 

[-red97rum-]

Nice car you guys got there! I'd put my money on the clutch master cylinder rod needing to be adjusted. Especially because you mention it grabbing right off the floor, which to me, points to a disengagement problem. This will destroy your syncros or worse over time so no fast shifting until it's fixed.

Jack's Transmissions has some decent video's on adjusting the clutch and understanding how the whole system works.
Jacks Transmissions Tech Articles

If it's not right after bleeding and adjusting the clutch hydraulics I'd suspect the flywheel has an incorrect step height.

I've had good luck with syncromesh and Redline MT90. I actually think the syncromesh shifted smoother. Screw the GM stealership. The same exact oil can be had for much cheaper at Vatozone labeled as Penzoil Syncromesh (yellow bottle)

Go by the vfaq timing belt adjustment instructions. I've used it more than a few times now and have never had a problem. 1G timing belt replacement

Here is how I set the tension whether I am using a new tensioner or not:

* I do not use an Allen wrench on the tensioner as noted previously, I just let the tensioner expand all the way
* Once the belt is installed, I place a .150" drillbit (or the nearest larger size I have) on the top of the tensioner body, and screw in the tensioner tool until it captures the drillbit between the tensioner body and tensioner pulley bracket. When the bracket is close to the drillbit, I start spinning the drillbit, and stop screwing in the tool as soon as the bracket stops it from spinning. In other words, I stop when the pulley bracket is just snug against the bit.
* I place a flatblade screwdriver between the engine and tensioner pulley, and lightly pry up on the pulley
* I torque the pulley down
* I back off the tensioner tool several turns, and immediately check the tensioner gap - if it has gotten too small or too large right away, I redo the steps above, changing the pressure used on the screwdriver. If the gap looks OK, I spin the engine 6 turns and wait 15 minutes and check the gap again.
* There are other ways to do this, but this works best for me

Build that boost leak tester and give it a go. I'll bet you have at least a couple leaks, never fails with an old stock car. I've also used silicone with an old j pipe gasket and it held 20+ psi of boost without leaking.

 

[95z286speed]

Hahah. Creative.

i agree that is creative...but no...ill spare the 5-10 bucks

yep i will be working on this tomorrow, ill let you know what is going on tomorrow night hopefully

so far what i have found is that the clutch master cylinder is leaking on the inside of the car, so its shot. Probably going to go get a new one, looks like a bi*** to install.

 

[-red97rum-]

the clutch master cylinder is leaking on the inside of the car, so its shot. Probably going to go get a new one, looks like a bi*** to install.

It's not that bad actually.
In the engine bay:
Be sure to use the proper flare wrench to disconnect the hard from the master cylinder. Then it's just two bolts for the master cylinder.

Inside the car you have the adjustment rod threaded into a U shaped bracket just above the gas pedal. The new master will come with a new U bracket as well, but you don't need to use it. Crack the lock nut loose on the adjustment rod then thread the adjustment rod toward the firewall until it comes out of the existing u bracket and pull the whole thing out from the engine bay side.

When you install the new one, just thread the adjustment rod back into the existing U bracket, bolt the MC up to the firewall, reinstall the clutch line and then bleed the system. You'll need to adjust the clutch engagement point with the adjustment rod as well. This is all covered in the vfaq too if I remember right.

 

[95z286speed]

yep i looked into more, seems easier than my brothers or my cars. Its probably going be a little while since we need parts and need to save a little cash for insurance and such. any brands suggested for a master and slave combo? around 100 bucks would be optimal.

 

[90moneypit]

Best brand for master and slave would be Mitsubishi and would run you about $170 + shipping from mitusbishiparts.com. Yes they're a stealership but they're cheaper than MSRP and the cheapest online source for OEM parts. You can save $60 if you know how to rebuild the master cylinder with a factory rebuild kit from them as well.
I don't know what your overall power goal is going go be but if you plan on upping the power with the stock tranny you might want to switch to Redline Shockproof(search for DSM coctail) or what I use which is Royal Purple which has a similar shock additive. Yes it's more expensive but cheaper than a service call. If you want to go on a budget and want something better than GM Synchromesh, nose around your local Mitsubishi dealership and see if you can snag some of the factory juice. It falls right between synchromesh (some have claimed it's too slippery for our synchros) and the top synthetics for performance but if you buy it by the quart it's probably more expensive than RP. Change out the rear end gear oil as well since it's been sitting so long plus you can see if it's a 4 bolt rear end (CV cup not housing bolt numbers like a GM).

It's a nice looking car and I hope everything works out!

 

[95z286speed]

well for now the tranny can survive, it will be built up in the long run, but the car will be pretty much stock except for a few minor bolt ons, 3 inch turbo-back (ebay brand is what she likes, best bang for the buck in my opinion), front mount intercooler with new piping, boost guage to get rid of the crappy stock one, already got the k&n filter, and the free mods. that is about it for engine wise at the current moment.

The car is going to be set up for road racing / hill climb events, so we are going to be focusing on suspension a lot, going to do coil overs of some sort, sway bars, better bushings, strut bars, etc.

The car is a 6 bolt engine, with the 4 bolt rear end, was one of the first things we checked out and were happy when we found out it was.

is there something wrong with perfection brand aka Zoom, i have a friend whose dad works there so we can get discounts, they have a lifetime warranty so it should be just as good as OEM.

 

[90moneypit]

If you're going to be competing with the car first check the rules to find out what modification will put you what class! Something that seems minor to you may put you into a very competitive class! If you're going to keep the stock turbo, you may want to pass on the 3" exhaust, it will drop your low end torque (something you'd want in x-cross/hill climb) in exchange for top end power. Any hp past where you're spinning the tires is a waste on dirt/gravel where most hill climbs takes place. Remember that there's a 300hp limit (more or less) on WRC cars and they are definately fast enough on gravel. If you're going to stick with the stock turbo, then the sidemount will be okay for now (again check rules concerning intercooler modification). The coil overs I know will bump you up a class or two from stock to modified/prep class which is VERY competitive. I'm not sure if energy suspension bushings will bump you or not. Sway bars will probably be limited to stock but there's a lot you can do with swapping between FWD/NT/Turbo to adjust your handling to what you can live with. It's not just "bigger is better", it's how the car responds with what diameter. You can get a similar effect by using a smaller bar on the opposite end that you wanted to beef up and possibly stay in a lower class. About the biggest mod you can do right now is to strip the interior down to metal.

Zoom makes a decent clutch but any type of competitive sport will void the warranty. People have good luck with South Bend disks but I'd recommend staying with a full face disk over a multi puck style at your power levels plus they slip a little vs the on/off switch jolt you'll get with say a 4 puck.

Sounds like it'll be an awesome project, take plenty of pics and start a build thread!

 

[95z286speed]

yeah we are going to look into the rules, i am currently in an internship with the SCCA SCR - region, so finding out rules is just a question away. For the turbo we will probably at least upgrade it to a 16g eventually at most 20g, but it all depends on rules and what she really wants from the car, right now we are just getting her started with auto-x and maybe a few PDX events, which require only a helmet and next to no rules on mods, she has to do a few different events in order to get her license for hill climb so its going to be a few good years before she reaches that (college students here, if i didn't establish that yet), so money is an issue.

as for a build thread i will try to, as soon as parts start coming in, the car is stripped of most plastic trim pieces, but we put the back seats in. Though we are taking them back out and washing the seats and carpet because its nasty and smells (was a smokers car ewww).

We found a couple of other minor problems with it,
1. The drivers side window is basically off track, it will go down perfectly, but when it is rolling up around 3 inches from the bottom it will just continue to go straight up and miss the whole door completely, you just have to push on it to get the window up and secure. we took the door panel off but its hard as hell to tell what is going on with it, but it is happening at the bottom. any write ups on fixing this, i tried searching while i was working on it, but ran out of time.

2. Gas door doesen't "pop" open when we pull the latch, you have to hold the latch up and reach for the gas door at the same time, its funny for my gf to do it since she is only 5' 2" and its a big stretch for her, is there supposed to be a spring somewhere in the gas door?

thanks Ian

 

[90moneypit]

1. You'll have to pop the door panel off (be careful the plastic clips are old) to get to the motor and guide. What's probably happened is the 'guides' on top of the scissor are worn out so it's sliding back and forth instead of staying in one place. This happened on my old Laser but only at the top 2" and it rarely needed my intervention to get it closed so I didn't bother with it. I'll have to look around and see if I can find a source for new ones for you.

2. Yeah, there's supposed to be a spring in the hinge area that puts pressure facing outwards. I don't have a clue how you'd replace just the spring or if you could even get just the spring. Try themitsubishigraveyard, he's a supporting vendor and likely your best bet to find a replacement door in the right color. The other option is to remove the catch mechanism on the door but then you loose the door lock. May be cheaper to buy a locking gas cap than a replacement door though!


Oh and my advice on turbo changes for autocross would be to look at a small 16g before a 20g. Larger turbos make more power but also have slower response. Last thing you/her want is to have a big hit of power halfway through the corner! Think of it as hitting the nitrous button when the turbo kicks in and you'll see what I mean. Most of the events are cones and parking lots right? You'll likely never see 3rd gear so smoother power is better than a turbo that only comes on around 4k rpm's. Hill climb is a whole different animal though

 

[darkstar5456]

its sounds like your got a good project going hope.you get her done bro

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Ever get this thing right?