New Buschur Turbos - br500 and br580

[Spooling_up]

I don't understand how when it appears the comprssor outlet faces to the engine. Are you guys able to weld on an elbow to face stock I/C piping location?

 

[JET]

The compressor can be rotated without any kit, just loosen up the clamp. It will be facing straight down on most cars.

PS...RnR check your pm's!

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

Will these RNR mani's have a bung or an option for abung for an EGT probe?

 

[RnR Racing]

We tap the manifold for an EGT probe for free with the purchase of the manifold. Ryan

 

[DSM90AWD]

Looks like we've hijacked this thread.. oh well.

Out of curiousity.. do you offer the "GT" series wheels on your T3/T4 setups? I noticed that PTE had "GT" wheel options on their Custom Setups but w/o any flowmaps..etc.

Saw some of the web updates. Anxious to see some pics of the whole setup

Originally posted by RnR Racing
We will have pics of the SS header on the site this weekend sometime. You will get full boost by 3500-3800rpm. Very similar to a Green and definitely not to laggy. The housing isn't to big. I recommend the .63 for the street, but you can use the .48 ar housing if you want.

There are also options like ball bearing, SS and our oh so popular 3" 02 housing and elim for these turbos.

 

[JET]

Sorry Ryan, I actually ended up getting one of the PTE turbo's at the top of this thread. I was told by a very good source that the 4 bolt housing is good for 30hp (on a 450 hp car). The PTE is a full garrett without the mounting hassle and 2/3 the cost. How can you go wrong?

 

[RnR Racing]

Jet, I hope you enjoy it and yes we have the 4 bolt housing.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Originally posted by JET
Sorry Ryan, I actually ended up getting one of the PTE turbo's at the top of this thread. I was told by a very good source that the 4 bolt housing is good for 30hp (on a 450 hp car).

I assume by 4-bolt you speak of the "O2" flange.. as all exhaust housings I've seen (Mitsu/Garrett/PTE/FP) have a 4-bolt Ex Manifold mounting flange?

Who's the source? I'd like to see some Dyno Graphs to support this claim as I'm shopping for a new setup as well and like to see #s.

 

[UncleBens]

I assume by 4-bolt you speak of the "O2" flange.. as all exhaust housings I've seen (Mitsu/Garrett/PTE/FP) have a 4-bolt Ex Manifold mounting flange?

Was wondering the same thing. I'm also assuming the 4 bolt is the garret style and you would need to get an o2 housing that would bolt up to a normal garret.

30 horsepower from a different o2? I would be quite shocked if that is true.

 

[RnR Racing]

I have always heard the 4 bolt will make 5-10 more hp than the 5 bolt housing. Never anything big like 25-30 hp, but if someone wants one with their turbo we will get it for them. We do also make the 02 housing and downpipes for the Garrett 4 bolt housing.

 

[JET]

There are more than one exhaust housing for the garrett. The 5 bolt is the ford style and is also used by turbonetics. The 4 bolt garrett style is the newer style. The guy that told me about the differences in the HP numbers owns one of the big turbo stores. They now use only the 4 bolt true garretts because of the difference in hp, not the 5 bolt turbonetics.

 

[DSM90AWD]

JET.. just to be clear (been a long day for me ).. you said you were going with the PTE setup with the 4-bolt Turbine Housing.. right?

Wasn't that turbine (4-bolt) housing made by PTE (not Garrett) specifically so that they could mount the Garrett Comp wheels without having to machine the heck out of the Mitsu Housings and still have a bolt-on turbo? I could be wrong.. as these setups are new and I've been to a dozen sites looking for info.

Also correct me if I'm wrong.. the Turbonetics 5-bolt is not a Mitsu Bolt-on but a "true" T3 Turbine housing requiring an adaptor or T3 Manifold / O2 housing.

 

[JET]

Yes, that is all correct. The PTE housing is an exact copy of a Garrett 4 bolt exhaust housing except for the flanges were changed so that it can bolt up to the mitsu exhaust manifold and DP.
The turbonetics 5 bolt housing loses its power becaust the opening to the scroll is actually not lined up quite right. The 4 bolt corrected this and the exhaust gases don't have to turn a corner to get out like the 5 bolt design. Buschur made 580 hp on the 60 trim PTE (almost positive it was that wheel). It is sold on Buschur's site as the BR580...580 hp, get it? And I am sure the 50 trim I am getting was the one they made 500 hp on with 28 psi before 4k rpm! 20 psi was 3750 rpm. The 60 trim you can add 3-400 rpm onto those. Can't go wrong for $995 with the internal gate!!

 

[DSM90AWD]

Thanks for the research JET.. and let me know how the install performance turns out.

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread that Tym Switzer was steering folks away from the BR500/580 for street use (pushing the 20G instead) so am eager to hear a consumer's review.

 

[JET]

He is steering them away because they jacked the price up $300 on the 20g! The 50 trim is bigger than the 20g and probably has 200 rpm more lag. Most people will probably be going with the 50 trim now. If you have ever seen the compressor map on the 50 trim you would be amazed! The only better map I have seen is the T66 and some of the GT's. I don't want the lag of the big turbo's though, so that made up my mind. My turbo isn't going in for another month.

 

[jzak423]

I ordered a BR580 for one of our shop cars. According to Tym, these turbos have been tested and the wheels used in the two are secrets of course, but they worked the best on their "orange car" out of all of the wheel combos. If it works out, I might order one for my other eclipse, but maybe try the BR500 since that's more of a street car. These turbos are supposed to make the 20G obsolete some day. I'll keep everyone posted on fitment and on how they spool up.

 

[UncleBens]

The new PTE sounds like a good deal ($1000). However the garret combo deal with RNR still holds its own at $1500.

You get an external setup with the the Garret combo which we all know the benifits of external. Let throw out the price of the tial since if you wanted to go external with the PTE you would still need to buy a tial. That 35mm tial is worth about $220 alone.

Thats brings the price of the Garret combo to $1280. And since you are replacing your manifold and o2 housing you can sell your stock stuff for $125 - $175.

That brings the price to roughly $1130. You get a higher flowing manifold, higher flowing o2 housing and lines for $130 more. Ohh but wait, how are we going to mount the tial on the PTE. Guess we have to buy an mitsu o2 housing with an external flange now or fabricate a mount off the mitsu manifold. I personally don't like the idea of running the external off one runner on the manifold so that means the garret combo is cheaper if going with an external setup.

 

[JET]

That is one of the biggest points of going with the PTE, to stay internal. The passages in the garrett housing are way, way bigger than a mitsu. So explain to me the big advantage of going external....extra noise? The garrett actuators are superior to the mitsu's also, so the door won't blow open. I already have a 3" O2 eliminator DP so it is a no-brainer for me.
I am also not going to have to deal with the possibility of the manifold cracking.

 

[Spooling_up]

RNT is NOT a true garett. I got and email from them saying it was besically a garett / tuboneics hybrid. Also you have NOT seen pics of this tubular mani. I have not seen one person so far happy with a tubular mani on out applications.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Buschur pioneered the sport and has held true to the parts that work. For him to be carrying the PTE line and having tested them on their own dyno gives me a warm fuzzy as to their legitamacy.

U-B.. 99% of the Garrett T3/T4 Kits and all the BR, RRE setups run an external off the Manifold. Don't know why you'd prefer an O2 mount.. but the Manifold Mount works.. well I'd rather save some cash and go internal with a H-F O2 housing.

As for Turbo Choices here.. If everyone had the same tastes there would'nt be much choice. Any of these setups will support more HP than I will ever see in my streetcar.. so I'm going with a setup that is tested, easy to install and fits my budget. That could all change tomorrow

Yay.. my car is back together. Will it start? Stay tuned

 

[RnR Racing]

Both turbo set ups have their advantages. The PTE is a little cheaper, but once you add in the cost of an aftermarket 02 housing, wategate, mounting of the wategate, porting of the manifold, SS oil line, etc. It gets pretty close to the same price.

If you decide to get the PTE just make sure you get it with the 50 trim wheel as I don't think you can go wrong with it.

I was interested in using the new GT wheels and turbos, but soon realized they weren't great for low boost applications and only performed better at high boost 26-30 psi and over.

I have a real love the 50 trim turbo. I beleive it is the best street turbo you can get. It works great on pump gas and low boost 20 psi. It is also effiecient to run 28-30 psi and make great power at the track too.

The choice is up to guys. Study and take advice from fast people and you should be fine.

 

[UncleBens]

RNR - did you say you have access to these PTE turbos? If so, how much.

So explain to me the big advantage of going external....extra noise?

This would probably take another thread.

U-B.. 99% of the Garrett T3/T4 Kits and all the BR, RRE setups run an external off the Manifold. Don't know why you'd prefer an O2 mount.. but the Manifold Mount works.. well I'd rather save some cash and go internal with a H-F O2 housing.

I said I don't prefer mounting off one runner. The preferred way to do it is from the collector but you cant do that with the mitsu housing. Heres a quote from Tials website, who would know more than the Wastegate manufacturers themselves

Mounting the wastegate. this is one of the most overlooked areas of boost control. In a perfect world you would select a mounting location for our wastegate that allows the gate equal access to all cylinders or rotors. This promotes equal exhaust port pressures between cylinders/rotors and avoids mysterious tuning problems resulting from uneven exhaust port back pressures. Another aspect to keep in mind is the high velocity of the exhaust gas inside the exhaust manifold, sometimes exceeding 800ft sec. Gas that is traveling at such high velocities will not easily make 90 degree turns of zero radius into the wastegate inlet. Remember Newton's second law, "bodies in motion tend to stay on motion". That particle of air is not particularly inclined to make a 90 degree turn and 800ft/sec. It must be persuaded to do so by giving it a gentle radius and easy access to the exhaust flow. Simply welding the gate to the side of a tube may work in some cases where the manifold back pressure is thru the roof, but in modern high efficiency turbochargers the pressure inside the manifold can be quite low and special through should go into wastegate runner geometry. The penalty for poor gate placement and poor gate runner design is having to use a larger gate.

Corky Bell's book 'Maximum Boost' also stresses the importance of mounting at the collector several times throughout his book. But than again lots of cars have gone fast mounting off of one runner.

Sorry for the off topic.

 

[92TsiTalon]

I ordered the BR500 the other day as well as a ported evo mani, stainless o2 w/ 40mm Tial and dump. i've heard of the gt wheels being nice, so i ordered one. with this setup and a 3" downpipe and cat-back, do you guys figure i'll be able to hit 20psi by say.....3500-3700 rpm's?

im going ahead and mounting the tial off the stainless o2 as it has the flange built in. i figure this will work well with the flapper off of that garrett turbine (which is already bigger than mitsu's, right?). i read Corky Bell's book too and he did mention wastegate placement as key to good boost control. i believe him. i mean....c'mon guys......it's CORKY BELL!!!

anyway, what do you guys think about my pending setup? i know i cant tune like buschur so im aiming for about 400-425whp (hopefully at 20-22 psi)

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by DSM90AWD
There are plenty of used 20Gs out there on the trader. Buddy just picked up a low miler for $600 (FP/TurboTrix).

Doing the Math:
BR20G (400HP) ($1300) + TIAL30MM ($250) + VPE O2 w/Tial Mount and Dump ($300) = $1850

Internally Gated L2R (550HP) w/Install Kit ($1650) = $1650

I think something is not adding up here.

Yeah, whats not adding up is your rating the 20g at 150 less hp the the L2R, you hafta be doing drugs to think thats reasonable

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by RnR Racing
Both turbo set ups have their advantages. The PTE is a little cheaper, but once you add in the cost of an aftermarket 02 housing, wategate, mounting of the wategate, porting of the manifold, SS oil line, etc. It gets pretty close to the same price.

If you decide to get the PTE just make sure you get it with the 50 trim wheel as I don't think you can go wrong with it.

I was interested in using the new GT wheels and turbos, but soon realized they weren't great for low boost applications and only performed better at high boost 26-30 psi and over.

I have a real love the 50 trim turbo. I beleive it is the best street turbo you can get. It works great on pump gas and low boost 20 psi. It is also effiecient to run 28-30 psi and make great power at the track too.

The choice is up to guys. Study and take advice from fast people and you should be fine.

Yeah, this is all pretty true, rumor has it Andre lost power on a FP30 over his green, perhaps because he can't boost what it takes to use the GT wheel to his advantage. Im not sure about all that since I don't swing off NABR's nuts.


As for the 50 trim, fast, proven, but so very small=)

Sean