Needed Advice for a new Turbo (T-25 or 16g)

[TheGreatGSX]

Ok so here's the deal. Turns out my stock T-25 seals are going, which is a bad thing but also gives me a reason to possibly get a better turbo.

I just need something that will be good for every day driving that will have some kick to shut up those annoying ricers from time to time. I've been looking into the 16g turbos, and from what I gathered it looks like a small 16g would suit me fine. I hear the Big 16g's lag a little. I would like something that could get me to 350HP later down the road.

The major thing I just want something I can easily bolt-on and go with no other mods. My car is mainly stock with a 1g BOV, and a aftermarket short-ram intake. The other question I had, I know that you need a J pipe for the 16g and a couple of engine pics I saw that the J pipe barely fit over the intake, should this be a concern?

What do you guys think? Should I just get another T-25 or go ahead and take this oppurtunity to go for a 16g? And are the 16g really bolt-on an go without any other mods?(Excluding J-Pipe)

I read up that the Big 16g is usually fine with the stock fuel system with recommendations of upgrading the fuel pump, is this the same with the small 16g? Or could I use my stock fuel pump with it?

I don't have much money and don't need anything extreme.

 

[TheGreatGSX]

Well, as of right now my main goal is to get a reliable turbo in there ASAP so I can drive it since my job relies on driving to peoples houses (Sometimes 50 miles away). My goals later down the road (Like a year down the road) would be around 330-350HP. Nothing extreme like I said before, just something to embarass ricers and something that can compete against V8's. And I'd like something that doesn't require many or if any mods. I've said in before posts that there is not ANY shops in this area that work with aftermarket parts so the fewer mods and something I can manage myself would be the best. Although I do not mind making the 60 mile trip to a decent shop for something major (Like installing the new turbo). Does that answer your question?


Edit: Oh and almost forgot. Something I could run with my stock fuel system would be IDEAL

 

[eeeewidner]

STAY AWAY FROM EBAY TURBOS!!
no matter what you read... buy once, instead of drive once. <-- just made that up[/QUOTE]

Ebay turbos aren't that bad. You will go through 3 to 4 of them before you get one that holds up. The last one I had warrantied out, I sent it out and had it balanced and I have no problems now. It's worked well for 6 months now.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, as of right now my main goal is to get a reliable turbo in there ASAP so I can drive it since my job relies on driving to peoples houses (Sometimes 50 miles away). My goals later down the road (Like a year down the road) would be around 330-350HP. Nothing extreme like I said before, just something to embarass ricers and something that can compete against V8's. And I'd like something that doesn't require many or if any mods. I've said in before posts that there is not ANY shops in this area that work with aftermarket parts so the fewer mods and something I can manage myself would be the best. Although I do not mind making the 60 mile trip to a decent shop for something major (Like installing the new turbo). Does that answer your question?

Small 16g all the way. If you wanted closer to 400whp, I would recommend the evo3 16g, considering you want a very stock looking setup. But you're goal will fit nicely with the small 16g. No need for any more lag.

One option is the 14b. This will give you lots of fun now. And when you're ready to push it, you can upgrade to the 7cm^2 turbine housing, of which you can pick up used for $50ish in the classifieds. This will turn your 14b turbine into a 16g turbine, and the 14b has a +34lb/min compressor. You will be capable of pushing to the bottem of your goal or more with proper support. This setup will have faster spool than the small 16g. Best thing is that they can be had in good shape very affordably.

 

[TheGreatGSX]

Well do you think it'd benefit me to go ahead and get an Evo 3 16g since it's closely priced to the small 16g? Just in case if I did want more HP later down the road, at least it'd give me room for bigger gains right?

2 Questions

1. Would the Evo 3 be ok with stock fuel system? I read up that with a stock set up they like to have boost creep up to 20psi
2. What RPMs does the Evo 3 usually have full spool?

 

[TheGreatGSX]

It seems like the small 16g is out of stock on every site...

 

[MaNGiNa24]

It seems like the small 16g is out of stock on every site...

Mainly because for the past couple years the EVO3 16g has been much more accessible.

Personally I'd go with a Holset HX35 mated with a bullseye dsm housing. Even if you're not planning on running high boost it'll still have more potential than a 16g, even at lower boost levels You can also get them pretty cheap these days if you're on a budget.

Spool is also relative to the type of driving you do. For a street car, I consider full boost at 4k rpms to be perfect. You get to conserve gas when you want to and if you need boost it's just a matter of downshifting. A larger turbo like the HX35 at 10-12 psi will outperform a 16g at 20psi and do it much more efficiently which will keep the intake charge temps lower without boost dropping off at higher rpms.

 

[toofast82]

"A larger turbo like the HX35 at 10-12 psi will outperform a 16g at 20psi and do it much more efficiently which will keep the intake charge temps lower without boost dropping off at higher rpms."

You're kidding me right? If you lined up the exact same car with this scenario. 16g would kick the living shit out of the holset at 10-12psi. I would love to see some type of test or dyno to confirm this. Any 16g(small,big,evo)

 

[TheGreatGSX]

I looked up prices for the Holset HX35 and if you call that pretty cheap then you must have lots of money to burn...

Anyways...

I'm looking for a reputable place to get a small 16g if anyone could point me in the right direction (as I mentioned before, they seem to be out of stock everywhere I look)
or
let me know if an evo III 16g would be ok with a stock fuel system

Thanks to all for your opinions and guidance, much appreciated, I hope one day I will have as much knowledge as you all do =D

 

[TheGreatGSX]

After some major research I've found that lots of people suffered with boost creep with the Evo 3 16g without supporting mods such as fuel pump, injectors, o2 housing, etc.

so...At this point I am sold on a small 16g, so again, if anyone can point me in the direction of where I can find one (Cheapest would be most appreciated) would be great help!

 

[PIMking]

After some major research I've found that lots of people suffered with boost creep with the Evo 3 16g without supporting mods such as fuel pump, injectors, o2 housing, etc.

so...At this point I am sold on a small 16g, so again, if anyone can point me in the direction of where I can find one (Cheapest would be most appreciated) would be great help!

Performance, reliability, Price.

Pick two.

 

[dsm-onster]

You're kidding me right? If you lined up the exact same car with this scenario. 16g would kick the living shit out of the holset at 10-12psi. I would love to see some type of test or dyno to confirm this. Any 16g(small,big,evo)

Where's your proof as well .

I looked up prices for the Holset HX35 and if you call that pretty cheap then you must have lots of money to burn...

Anyways...

I'm looking for a reputable place to get a small 16g if anyone could point me in the right direction (as I mentioned before, they seem to be out of stock everywhere I look)
or
let me know if an evo III 16g would be ok with a stock fuel system

Thanks to all for your opinions and guidance, much appreciated, I hope one day I will have as much knowledge as you all do =D

Don't buy a holset new. You can get my h1c for $200 used in great condition on eBay. And the bolton housing for $280 puts you under $500 for a bolton turbo that will flow about 8lb/min (about 90hp) more than an evo3 16g, yet spools just as fast. You can even get an hx35 for $300 and for $100 more you will have a turbo that will bolton, spool as fast as the evo3 16g but flow about 12lb/min more. . . But even if you do buy new, they are $500 less than FP turbos of comparable performance and $300 less than BW turbos. $899 including the bolton housing. You can't get a bolton aftermarket 450whp turbo for this price. . . Well maybe you can catch a deal on a bolton 50-trim, that spools about 400rpms later.

My bolton h1c flowed 2lb/min more than my 16g at 2psi lower boost. It flowed about the same at 12psi as my 16g did at 16psi.

The evo3 16g is a good turbo. Paying $900 for a turbo vs. paying $600 isn't what some are willing to do unless you want 400whp or more. If you want such a level, then $600 for a turbo that will be pushed to it's limit at 400whp vs. $900 for a turbo with the same spool speed and much more head room is an easy decision.

Stock boost from a 16g is ok with stock fuel. Don't do any modifications to your car without a logger however. You're in the dark without one. I suggest EvoScan, since you ahve a 1997 or newer 2g car.

I still suggest you get a 14b. And upgrade the turbine housing to the 7cm^2 version later. You'll be running the stock fuel system for how long? The 14b spools quite a bit faster than any 16g from my experience. And you can reach your goal with that turbo. If you think $900 is expensive for a new turbo then you probably like the idea of buying a used, in good shape 14b and swapping in the 7cm^2 turbine housing later. If you want more than what a 7cm^2 14b can deliver (more than about 330whp), then you can sell the 14b for what you paid, since you'd be buying a used unit and selling a used unit. And your engine bay would be setup for the 16g, since the 14b and 16g are interchangeable. In the mean time the 14b will be a good upgrade and feel noticably better than the stock turbo did, because it will not drop off in boost up top and the turbine flows more (more power per psi boost).

 

[tindall2006]

If your looking for a good price on a turbo I would suggest PMing this guy jusmx141.

He has alot of knowledge and had a very good rebutation for rebuilding turbos. I decided to personally go with a small 16G turbo

 

[TheGreatGSX]

I will be running stock fuel system untill I am financially stable which could be anywhere from 3 months to a year (Starting up my own business, so hard to tell). If you suggest I get a 14b then I might as well go for one. When I upgrade the turbine housing to the 7cm^2 version, will it basically be a small 16g? I basically just need something that is reliable and is ok for daily driving that doesn't need upgraded fuel system (At least at this point). Although I would like something that I could later add supporting mods for around 300HP (Preferably 350 range, but NOT NEEDED)

If I get a 14b what else will I need? Any type of kit? Or a bunch of misc items? Like I said before I need to get something set up ASAP so I can get on with making money =D (To get those bigger upgrades of course) so I really don't have the time to be searching for a bunch of seperate parts to make it a full kit. AND I personally don't trust any shops in this area to install anything that is some-what difficult. Hell, just to ease all this pressure and frustration completly I just might pick up another used T-25 and call it a day =D

I appreciate all your help and advice though DSM-onster, you really are a "wiseman"


Edit: Ok, I now realize you do need a 2g install kit

 

[TheGreatGSX]

14B Topic
It seems like some people have problems getting the 14b properly installed? Theres a couple posts in there of the J-pipe not reaching the stock IC, and something about the oil lines and something needing drilled?

 

[dsm-onster]

The same applies for the 16g. You have to remedy the jpipe to intercooler piping issue with both.

 

[Splitpi]

14b installs is identical as a 16G install.

I agree with dsm-onster. My research put me on the 14b path. I ordered a used 14b from this site. Got a turbo with a bent exhaust shaft [how, I have no idea, nor do I remember who sold it] for very cheap. Being the anal retentive prick that I am, I sent it for rebuild [was going to do this regardless] at gpopshop. They called me back and told me the shaft was bent and that it wasn't a 14b but a big 16g. So I actually lucked out and ended up with a big 16G and after purchase/rebuild/port/polish it was still cheaper than buying a new big 16G.

I personally would never put a used turbo onto my car without a professional inspection. Same goes with injectors and having them cleaned prior to installation.

 

[TheGreatGSX]

How does this issue get remedy? Will I need to get anything else other than the 2g install kit?

 

[Splitpi]

How does this issue get remedy? Will I need to get anything else other than the 2g install kit?

This has been posted MANY times on this site on how to install a 16G/14b turbo.

quick google search:
EVO 16G install
16G install in a 2G

On the cheap:
16G and RRE Do-it-yourself hacker/tweaker kit on a 2G

I had my turbo rebuilt. I bought all new gaskets and studs. I bought an ETS front mount intercooler setup for a 16G/14b turbo. Here is my write up...
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...ack-previous-buyers-please.html#post151216895

And search on this site:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/266822-big-16g-install-need-some-help.html

 

[Dsmj89]

In my opinion, i would shed out the extra 50 bucks and go with the evo3 16g, It has a lighter wheel and great spool-up as well as top end. The lag isn't all too bad, later down the road when you upgrade your fuel system you will ask yourself where is the lag.
An evo3 16g along with the 2g install kit will bolt right up to your car and will run fine as long as you don't step on it, and boost creep shouldn't be an issue as well, like i said, assuming you don't step on it. Run boost off the wastegate to the included j-pipe in the kit for the meantime.

 

[TheGreatGSX]

I apologize split, I have been researching for 12 straight hours and am kind of burnt out of searching and reading posts.

And when I can get a 14b for around 30-100 bucks, shedding out another 50 bucks will not get me an evo 3 16g, besides not knowing when I can get the fuel upgrades I would not trust myself with a evo316g. I suffer from road rage at times and just floor it without thinking -_- ....

So since it's very cheap to go the 14b route, I am going to go with it, since I will getting a 2g install kit I should be ready to go for a evo316g upgrade when I am ready, and hell, spending less than a 100 dollars on a better turbo than the t25 I can't complain (And will have fun with it before its time is over).
My only other question is...Does anyone know where I can get a 14b (Used or rebuilt) from someone reputable? I looked up classifieds and ebay, I found a couple, but they look pretty banged up and rusty. Not to mention most of them seem to have over 100k+ miles on them.

Thanks again to everyone, this topic is pretty much RESOLVED!!

 

[Splitpi]

TheGreatGSX, I would run the 14b at wastegate pressure personally until you have all the supporting work done. If you simply connect the wastegate line directly to the nipple on the J-Pipe ... if the j-pipe doesn't have one take it a local shop and have them weld one on ... most will do it for free or just a few bucks. This will limit your lead foot to only 9.5 psi or there abouts of boost.

My car put down 202 Wheel HP with a big 16G at 9.5 psi. So it is still more power than a T25 at 14 psi.

I would also highly recommend that you rewire your fuel pump. Its cheap and easy and provides you with an extra degree of comfort when boosting. I followed this guide and it worked like a charm.
2G DSM FWD Fuel Pump Rewire Instructions

Note... the biggest issue is that people don't properly clean the grounding point when they rewire. Sand, grind, whatever till you see VERY shiny metal where you want to connect the grounding strap on the chassis.

Word of advice though. It has been my experience when modding this car that whatever price I "think" it will cost me, it ends up costing me about double to get it all installed because all of the incidentals and what not. So make sure you always have some reserve funds just incase.

Also, use ALOT of PB blaster on the bolts over several days before you plan to remove the turbo. spray it all over the bolts, both sides. Mine came off pretty easily this way. If you must drive the car still, that is ok, just know the car will smoke like a biatch till teh PB Blaster burns off. But every night spray the bolts down [turbo to exhaust manifold bolts, turbo to O2 housing bolts, O2 housing to downpipe bolts and exhaust manifold to head bolts. TRY TO AVOID THE O2 SENSOR! PB blaster and O2 sensor does not work together and can destroy the sensor. Thats about the best advice I can give. Soak the bolts for about 3 night prior to wanting to remove them.

 

[thewombis]

Ebay turbos aren't that bad. You will go through 3 to 4 of them before you get one that holds up. The last one I had warrantied out, I sent it out and had it balanced and I have no problems now. It's worked well for 6 months now.

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Who wants to go through 3 or 4 of them before they get one that MIGHT work. What if one of those that "didn't work" grenade and destroy your whole motor. Then you have a $100 chunk of bubbly cast aluminum that destroyed a $2000 motor. I would rather get a nice turbo and be able to say "yea I pushed her to hard and she blew my motor" than...."I had a Ebay turbo and it exploded while I was going through the Taco Bell drive through".

I'm all about spending time driving the car.. that Is what they are for after all. Not swapping turbos every 100 miles till i get one that works -ok-

$100 Ebay x 4 = $400 = maybe 10k miles.
MHI Turbo x 1 = $500 = 100k miles.

My t25 is still mint after I pulled it off after 85k miles...

 

[TheGreatGSX]

Well I am going to get the turbo professionally installed, so I will not be doing it myself. And the link for the rewire on the fuel pump says FWD? And you really think it's necessary to rewire the fuel pump for a 14b running 9.5 psi of boost? And since we're on that subject, is 9psi the max for a 14b turbo with a stock fuel system? And yes I did research this question but the answers varied WAY too much. I read up from 7-10 psi is safe to up to 14psi is safe. And your saying I should just unhook the MBC with the 14b? Ok...let me get this straight

Get 14b installed (Professionally) w/ 2gen install kit
Hook up WG line to J-Pipe nipple (If it has one, if not take it to a shop so they can weld one)
Unhook MBC
Rewire Fuel pump (Or can I just up to a 190 Walbro?)

Am I missing anything?
And of course! Again! THANK YOU!

 

[toofast82]

He was saying to take the boost controller completely out of the car. Run a vacuum line from the wastegate actuator to the compressor j-pipe nipple to control boost which will keep it about 9-10psi to avoid fueling issues.
I would say you should be good to run at about 14lbs on your stock fuel system. I would recommend rewiring your fuel pump for more output and consistent performance. Also note, the stock 2g pump flows a little more than a 1g
RRE Instructions
After the rewire, you should be good to 16-17psi on 14b with some type of logging/tuning device
But for safety with no logging/tuning device, I would probably keep it at 9-10psi until you have more knowledge and mods
Also note that a 14b with 7cm exhaust housing is not basically any 16g. 14b and the 16gs are all different compressor wheels with different size blades. But adding a 7cm housing to a 14b will help topend flow

 

[Splitpi]

I would do the install myself. With the money you save you can purchase all the tools you would need. It'll take most of a day to do it yourself [assuming little experience and being a slow arse like myself]. And you'll have the satisfaction that you learned how to do this. It is not very difficult. Just a few bolts, some bloody knuckles and a lot of swearing.

>>And the link for the rewire on the fuel pump says FWD?

Rewire will still be the same for the GSX and GST/SPYDER GST.

>>And you really think it's necessary to rewire the fuel pump for a 14b running 9.5 psi of boost?

Not absolutely necessary. But to me, the benefits and extra security of knowing the fuel pump can flow a little more gas to meet the demands of a larger turbo is worth it.

>And since we're on that subject, is 9psi the max for a 14b turbo with a stock fuel system? And yes I did research this question but the answers varied WAY too much. I read up from 7-10 psi is safe to up to 14psi is safe.

And that is because every vehicle is different. 9.5 psi is absolutely safe with no tuning or other upgrades. 14 psi is safe for some and not others. It really depends on how your car accepts the boost level. I would recommend a logger and a boost gauge if you plan on running anything past 9.5 psi. The logger will tell you if you are over boosting the car to what the injectors can handle. The boost gauge will tell you what the manifold intake pressure is [this is more important than knowing what the turbo pressure is as it is the air pressure as it is immediately entering the head after all the loss due to pressure leaks and the intercooling, etc..].

>Get 14b installed (Professionally) w/ 2gen install kit

Yup. Though I would encourage you to do it yourself. But I am no judge of how comfortable you are at doing it yourself. It really is your call. Though, doing it yourself will save you alot of money.

>Hook up WG line to J-Pipe nipple (If it has one, if not take it to a shop so they can weld one)

Yup, direct line. This will ensure you will never boost past the wastegate pressure setting.

>Unhook MBC

Till you have a means to tune and log how your car is performing.

>Rewire Fuel pump (Or can I just up to a 190 Walbro?)

I would recommend rewire whether you stick with the stock fuel pump or you get a 190. Either would benefit from the rewire.

These are my opinions on the subject.... obviously it is your vehicle and your money, so do as you see best.

Also do a boost leak test AFTER you install the turbo and fix any leaks. Trust me there will be quite a few leaks no matter how thorough you thought you were during the install.