need help choosing cams and head gasket

[91-gsx]

Tony if you had a turbo that made good power in the 30psi range you would need almost sraight race fuel. I would use the MLSS then. Crower springs are good for 85-8800 but I would not take them higher. mark
PS: Tony I thought you had a blown gasket? Why chabge the gasket if it's not blown and if it is you MUST get it machined. Mark

yes i do have a blown head gasket, but i never knew i would have to have the head machined unless it was warped. but what you guys are saying is that sense the head gasket is blown, the head must be warped? and therefore, must be machined flat? how much does it usually run to have the machining done?
thanks for the help guys, this really starts to add up money wise

 

[RedTalonTsi]

how much does it usually run to have the machining done?
thanks for the help guys, this really starts to add up money wise

If you bring in a stripped and cleaned head and tell them you just want it decked I would say it will cost $40-$50.

Later,
Dana

 

[T9S1i]

If you bring in a stripped and cleaned head and tell them you just want it decked I would say it will cost $40-$50.

Later,
Dana

id say thats about right.


If you dont want to take it all apart before you get it decked and feel like bringing the head up to SF, i can find out how much my friends shop would want to get the complete head from you and get it all ready to be milled and then do the work and re-assemble it. PM me if you are really serious about this. He has a newer "diamond cutting" machine or something like that so it will be a quality surfacing job. My guesstimate would be somewhere from the 40-80 dollar range, but if your serious, i'll go and ask.

 

[91-gsx]

id say thats about right.


If you dont want to take it all apart before you get it decked and feel like bringing the head up to SF, i can find out how much my friends shop would want to get the complete head from you and get it all ready to be milled and then do the work and re-assemble it. PM me if you are really serious about this. He has a newer "diamond cutting" machine or something like that so it will be a quality surfacing job. My guesstimate would be somewhere from the 40-80 dollar range, but if your serious, i'll go and ask.

do i really have to disassemble it before they machine it? and the other thing is if the head got warped, the block probably did not, right?
thanks, but i can try a couple of machine shops here, and if i have to disassemble it, i will do it myself.
thanks for the help and offer

 

[sweet97]

Tonu, the tool to compress the springs will cost more than having the shop do the job. My local shop wanted $26. and that included removing and assembling the springs.
The Block desck is cast iron and thick, it's fine.
Mark
PS: If you're going to SanFransisco
be sure to wear some flowers in your hair!
And if you see Scott McKenzie get me an autograph but I believe he's in joshua Tree. I'll have to google that one. Sorry, it's early!

 

[andymoraitis]

sounds great man, just bought them. lets see how the 14b likes all the new mods i have done.
later

Larger cams on a 14B will create boost falloff in the upper RPM ranges since the turbine and compressor wheels can't flow enough air to support the higher VE of the motor at elevated boost levels. If you were going to go with a turbo that pushed up to 650 cfm, I would have picked up 101200's. I have the 200's and they wouldn't hold boost on a Big 16G past 6000 RPM and 24psi.

Then again, the falloff won't kill you since you'll be making more power across the RPM range. All I'm saying is that those cams are better matched to something like an EVO III and up. FYI, I have my idle set to 700 and I have a mild lope and pull 16 inches of vacuum on an 8.8:1 2.3 stroker. You'll definitely like them.

Andy

 

[sweet97]

I thought I said that but in 20 words or less! Hey Andy, call me asap! Mark

 

[RedTalonTsi]

do i really have to disassemble it before they machine it?

Yes, when they are machining it tiny metal particals are going to get everywhere. You don't want those particles all up in your head causing wear on your expensive cams. So the head should be disasembled and cleaned regardless.

Later,
Dana

 

[staticbrainwash]

But i think they were saying it's more time/cost effective just to have the machine shop disassemble and reassemble the head so they can clean it out very well. And you might as well have them hot-tank it too so you get rid of any caked on oil or whatnot.

 

[91-gsx]

But i think they were saying it's more time/cost effective just to have the machine shop disassemble and reassemble the head so they can clean it out very well. And you might as well have them hot-tank it too so you get rid of any caked on oil or whatnot.

it might be more cost effective, but i dont trust anybody with my car...i mean what if they dont know the right torque specs for the springs and the other stuff and end up screwing up not just the cams but the whole head... as far as a hot tank, i would love it, but this is san jose, i have yet to see a place that might do this, but i'll try to find one at the same time. or i will just clean it myself, couldnt be harder then taking out an old oil pan and cleaning it out, now that is caked on...
thanks for the help guys, imagine if i put a new headgasket on without the machining and it started to leak again, i would have just kicked the fender in...

ps: when i do the machining, should i use the mitsu 4-layer headgasket sense everything will be flat, or should i go with another? Also, Mark i didnt know which headgasket you were talking about that cost half the amount as the mitsu but would work better for me...

The MLSS gasket is good but you need SMOOTH surfaces for it to seal well. I just put one on this afternoon. Be sure you have your head surfaced smooth as possible. Really the composition gasket would be the better choice for you and is half the cost as the MLSS. I would do the MLSS on an engine rebuild but it's your dollar:>)
The difference in cc's between the 2 gaskets is minimal so don't worry about compression. They are within about .010".
If you do use the MLSS I would use copper spray from Permatex but that is a matter of choice also. It fills any imperfections in either the head or block. I'm doing a new timing belt too even though I have only 7,000 miles on the one I am taking off. Good idea to get it done if it has not been done yet. Mark

 

[91-gsx]

i think i found the composite one you were talking about mark, but that is not made to take a beating. i need something that will hold 30psi because i do plan on upgrading from the 14b to a bigger turbo later on.
later

 

[steel_3d]

Haven't people been to 30psi and to 450-500hp on stock unopened motors, including head gasket? I've also heard of Cometics blowing from less than that.

Based on that, I decided on sticking with the stock composite gasket for my 400whp stroker plans, because it should never leak, and hopefully still hold that much power with good tuning. Using ARP's torqued to 90 to help them out.

If anyone thinks I'm on crack, let me know now

As for hot tanking...Whoever's doing your head should have a hot tank. It's a basic machine shop fixture. What I did is went to google maps and typed in "auto machine shop near [your zip code]", and start calling. Or in your case "auto machine shop near san diego, ca", which I just tried and came up with good hits. Most places will hot tank your parts for 20-30 bucks.

As an example, for 170 bucks I got a 3-angle valve job ($90), got valves ground ($20), resurfaced the head ($40) and hot tanked the head and intake manifold ($20). I did the disassembly and reassembly. The only trick is having a spring compressor, which is impossible to find for our heads. I made one out of a 6-inch c-clamp and hacked-up spark plug socket soldered onto it It's a tedious job, so if you can get a machine shop to do it for cheap, I'd go for that instead.

If you don't want a valve job, I think they can resurface the head assembled. Not sure how they keep it clean though, you'll have to ask your shop.

Oh, and I went with the dks2's as well for my stroker, can't comment on them yet. For some reason my lifters are overextended even when using his shims, so I'll probably just double up the washers.

 

[91-gsx]

Haven't people been to 30psi and to 450-500hp on stock unopened motors, including head gasket? I've also heard of Cometics blowing from less than that.

Based on that, I decided on sticking with the stock composite gasket for my 400whp stroker plans, because it should never leak, and hopefully still hold that much power with good tuning. Using ARP's torqued to 90 to help them out.

If anyone thinks I'm on crack, let me know now

As for hot tanking...Whoever's doing your head should have a hot tank. It's a basic machine shop fixture. What I did is went to google maps and typed in "auto machine shop near [your zip code]", and start calling. Or in your case "auto machine shop near san diego, ca", which I just tried and came up with good hits. Most places will hot tank your parts for 20-30 bucks.

As an example, for 170 bucks I got a 3-angle valve job ($90), got valves ground ($20), resurfaced the head ($40) and hot tanked the head and intake manifold ($20). I did the disassembly and reassembly. The only trick is having a spring compressor, which is impossible to find for our heads. I made one out of a 6-inch c-clamp and hacked-up spark plug socket soldered onto it It's a tedious job, so if you can get a machine shop to do it for cheap, I'd go for that instead.

If you don't want a valve job, I think they can resurface the head assembled. Not sure how they keep it clean though, you'll have to ask your shop.

Oh, and I went with the dks2's as well for my stroker, can't comment on them yet. For some reason my lifters are overextended even when using his shims, so I'll probably just double up the washers.

thanks for the info man. in your case you should have probably bought a stronger headgasket sense you did all the required work and you have a built motor.
later

 

[steel_3d]

I was thinking about the Titan ICS. I was pretty much set on it and then a bunch of people reported failures with them, so I said I'd rather have a reliable motor and just go stock since people have made power on them. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have had problems with an mls given that my block and head were decked, I just didn't wanna risk it and didn't feel it was necessary.

 

[91-gsx]

can you guys give me a quick rundown on which head gasket holds the most boost pressure and is the easiest to install and why? the 3 head gaskets i am talking about are the stock head gasket replacement, mitsubishi 4 layer, or a cometic(which evidently have 3 layers, right?).
thanks

 

[91-gsx]

i notice a lot of people have the cometic head gasket, is that stronger then the mitsu 4 layer?
any help would be much appreciated

 

[tsi20gawd]

It is a hit and miss deal with Cometic gaskets in my experience. I have used the OEM 4layer along wth MANY others and never had problems with them great bang for the buck. Another posibility is Fel Pro's new addition to the 4g63 MLS headgasket world, a bit pricey but looks to be great quality.
Bryan

 

[91-gsx]

It is a hit and miss deal with Cometic gaskets in my experience. I have used the OEM 4layer along wth MANY others and never had problems with them great bang for the buck. Another posibility is Fel Pro's new addition to the 4g63 MLS headgasket world, a bit pricey but looks to be great quality.
Bryan

thanks for the input man. like you said, i would rather go along with the tried and true then the new fel pro, just in case. i read that the mitsu 4-layer will hold 35psi, how hard are you pushing it?
thanks for the help

 

[tsi20gawd]

Well to be honest I have held over 35psi on the stock composit gasket with arp headstuds on my fp3065 with no failures. We have also run an fp3052 at 33psi with a 50 shot of nitrous will no ill effects. The mitsu 4 layer I have never found the limitations on and I am using the new Fel Pro on my 2.4L. I can tell you that appearance and construction wise the Fel Pro piece looks VERY promising. Boost is not the big headgasket killer knock is, if you can keep your engine noise to an acceptable level you will have great results with any of these choices.
Bryan

 

[91-gsx]

Well to be honest I have held over 35psi on the stock composit gasket with arp headstuds on my fp3065 with no failures. We have also run an fp3052 at 33psi with a 50 shot of nitrous will no ill effects. The mitsu 4 layer I have never found the limitations on and I am using the new Fel Pro on my 2.4L. I can tell you that appearance and construction wise the Fel Pro piece looks VERY promising. Boost is not the big headgasket killer knock is, if you can keep your engine noise to an acceptable level you will have great results with any of these choices.
Bryan

good info thanks man. couple of other questions for you though. as far as the stock head gasket, would i have to machine the head flat or will it take the maybe slight warpage? i already bought a set arp head studs which i should have done in the first place when i was pushing 25psi out of the 14b(boost creep) no knock. if you were in my position, would you buy the stock replacement, or would you buy the higher strength 4layer?
thanks for the help

 

[tsi20gawd]

If your head is warped or out of spec you are going to need to machine it regardless of your gasket choice. A composit gasket is typically more forgiving than a steel type gasket when it comes to surface irregularities, however I have intalled the OEM 4 layer gasket many times on un touched engines while using copper spray with no ill effects.
Bryan

 

[91-gsx]

If your head is warped or out of spec you are going to need to machine it regardless of your gasket choice. A composit gasket is typically more forgiving than a steel type gasket when it comes to surface irregularities, however I have intalled the OEM 4 layer gasket many times on un touched engines while using copper spray with no ill effects.
Bryan

ofcourse if it is warped i will have to machine it, but how can you tell if it is warped or not? another thing is were do you get the copper spray and what is it supposed to do? last is, is there a need for rtv sealant, or is it not supposed to be used there?
thanks again

 

[Spoolin98]

ofcourse if it is warped i will have to machine it, but how can you tell if it is warped or not? another thing is were do you get the copper spray and what is it supposed to do? last is, is there a need for rtv sealant, or is it not supposed to be used there?
thanks again

Take the head to the machine shop and have them check the flatness with a feeler gauge, see if it's within the specs in your shop manual. Then have it machined if necessary, don't just take it to them and have it machined without seeing if it is needed first. There are tons of threads on here about headgaskets and copper spray. Just search. Heres a few links.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196008&highlight=head+gasket
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188674&highlight=head+gasket
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205219&highlight=head+gasket

From my understandings. If you are planning on using a MLS hg, it is a good idea to use copper spray if you are only resurfacing the head. If you are resurfacing the head and block, then no copper spray is needed. The copper spray fills in any imperfections in the surfaces of the block and head. Correct me if I'm wrong. No RTV Sealant

Heres a link to the spray.
http://www.shop.com/op/aprod-p23917...et®+Hi-Temp+Adhesive+Sealant-nover?sourceid=3

 

[tsi20gawd]

The use of copper spray is up to personal preference I have alwasy used it on the OEM 4 layer gaskets with GREAT results, its available at almost any autop parts store in their sealer or rtv section its usually manufactured by permatex. Absolutly NO RTV!!! do not use rtv on anything if you can help it. If the gasket did not have rtv originally dont use it if you can help it thats the best policy.
Hope this helps.
Bryan

 

[91-gsx]

Take the head to the machine shop and have them check the flatness with a feeler gauge, see if it's within the specs in your shop manual. Then have it machined if necessary, don't just take it to them and have it machined without seeing if it is needed first. There are tons of threads on here about headgaskets and copper spray. Just search. Heres a few links.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196008&highlight=head+gasket
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188674&highlight=head+gasket
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205219&highlight=head+gasket

From my understandings. If you are planning on using a MLS hg, it is a good idea to use copper spray if you are only resurfacing the head. If you are resurfacing the head and block, then no copper spray is needed. The copper spray fills in any imperfections in the surfaces of the block and head. Correct me if I'm wrong. No RTV Sealant

Heres a link to the spray.
http://www.shop.com/op/aprod-p23917...et®+Hi-Temp+Adhesive+Sealant-nover?sourceid=3

i read through all 3 links and have a few more questions, you must have never guessed.... anyway, i bought a set of arp headstuds that have not been used but do nto come with the special arp lube. what type of lube should i use on the bolts and nuts? and what do you all recommend i torque them down to sense i have heard way too many different numbers? the last question is if i have my head machined flat because of warpage, do you think the block would be warped as well?
thanks again