Need a better understanding from serious DSMers

[73-type-lt-ls1]

Ok.. There is a local board to me called 831r.com. There is a guy that posts by the name hustlerracingtsi. You would have to log in register and all that to see his post. If you want to it is here http://831r.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=993&start=120


Here is my question.


Will a DSM run faster with a blown head gasket???



Here is what he claims. His exact words, cut and pasted from 831r.com.



its not that hard to comprehend how a blown head gasket will help performance. im not saying its a good thing and i would fix it as soon as possible but it could make your car faster. like i said its not just a theory its happened and its quite common too.

this would likely cause the car to run faster since coolant enters and cools the combustion chamber allowing a more agressive tune (leaner A/F and more timing)

I know of a few cars that have run their best times with a blown head gasket.



Any one care to comment on the blown head gasket circumstance.. I seem to know nothing coming from a 500rwhp LS1 and building a T101 turbo LS1 right now. Can some one please fill me in on what I seem to be missing??


BTW, I am linking this back to the original 831r.com post because hustler said he was going to put something on the DSM boards but I have failed to see it yet..



BTW, my argument is a leaky head gasket is not like water injection. WI is a misted controlled induction element. A blown headgasket 1) is not a mist, 2) is not controlled 3) in it's uncontrolled, unmisted status it is diluting the A/F causing the cyl to not burn properly loosing hp.


Any input is greatly appreciated.

 

[GeneralChaos]

the guy is an idiot, tell that website to ban him for making such stupid remarks.

I want that 45 seconds of my life back because thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard! :thumbdown

 

[GTM]

ok what the hell i got time. you are a DSM wise man right. what you say is to be believed. basically on the above statement you claimed it is phisically impossible for water to enter the combustion chamber. but let me ask you something. during the pistons downstroke does it not bring air in? what do you think is the pressure during the downstroke? now is it impossible for water to be sucked into the combustion chamber?

also just curious, and not trying to be a jerk, but what makes you a wise man? is it just cuz youve been on this site for a long time or have you actually done some work on dsms? I dont see any modifications on either your car or the moderators car so im just curious.

Unfortunately not as often as you might think, sometimes it's age and sometimes it's ego that gets in the way.

I had hoped you would have realized that it takes a whole lot of force to push water which only has a max of 15 pounds pressure along with any negative pressure on the intake stroke. That's assuming you have NO boost forcing air into the cylr. In the early stages of leaking the water does not enter the cylr except when the engine is not running. By the time it has flooded the void you are blowing so much gas into the cooling system you have lost the displacement pressures for normal combustion thus lost hp. I was trying to think up a test where you could actually visualize this yo-yo reaction but so far it's only with drinking straws and clothespin.
...................

No, it has nothing to do with the length of time I've been a member here on DSMtuners. To be invited to become a Wiseman (don't think we have any women yet) you have to have demonstrated a good working knowledge of either DSMs or autos in general. Along with that is the willingness to help others and share your knowledge and experiences in a civilized socially acceptable manner. This catches the attention of others and someone will offer your name to be considered as a candidate.

I guess your priorities were fixed on my son's car specifications and didn't look in the right column and scroll down a bit where you can list occupation. Sometimes I wish they had made the occupation box larger for a lot had to be left out. As a professional I don't do mods for a variety of reasons, much of my time has been spent at dealerships where most of what is being done here will void the owner's warranty. When I did do mods in my youth I found the customers were more problems than they were worth. It's the ever since you did xyz my radio gets static. If you explain there is no relationship they get bent and threaten you with everything they can think of including suing the dealership. I like my job, it pays the rent so I don't want to get fired for going against company policy.

If there are 265 working days a year, I work on 3-6 cars a day for 25 years that might work, I also was tech inspector for 5 years with SCCA and inspected 150-250 cars at least once a month including teardown when someone was thought to be in violation. I've also been an invited guest for same in Mexico City, and a couple in Italy. I spent 5 years as service manager for a large Datsun/Nissan dealership with 25 mechanics. My ASE Master Mechanic's license has expired but I'm still active with SAE and a few other lesser important groups but I don't twist wrenches except for myself and family these days. Drag racing and stock cars have never been an interest but F1 and sports cars were my forte.

With that background I might be qualified to speak in generalities with enough confidence to know a bit about the subject. I rarely post in the mods section for the reasons given but frequent the areas where I can be of the most help.

That was probably more than you ever cared to know but I figured it might help since the tone was I was all talk. I do NOT claim to be a DSM expert, there are those who's specialty may be listed in their Wiseman title.

Nobody wants to be insulted, it doesn't get any place, nothing to be gained. I have no answer for why you ran a second faster but it wasn't from what was presented. Take it and SMILE, try to figure out what did happen and keep duplicating it. That could be a new thread which would be productive to you... but then your competiton would know all your secrets...

Cheers,
GTM

 

[awdtaylon]

I agree with you on this statement. This is why I mentioned it on the other board. However, I believe it is hurting performance.

Your tune is not based on water coming in to a cyl like a WI system.
You are not reprograming the ECU advancing the timing to make up for you blown HG WI system.
This is happening on 1 cyl, not all of them. How is the ECU going to figure out it needs to give 1 cyl a different A/F mixture? Or base it's timing map around 1 cyl?

Your basically saying that one cyl is is leaning out because it is cooler and advancing the timing. Even if it is running cooler, the ECU is averaging it's fuel and timing curves based on all 4 cyl not just 1.

Lets say for a second your theorey works.

How much timing advance do you think you will see (1 degree, 5 degrees)??
Do you think that timing advance is going to make up for the poluted A/F mixture?

now i dont have a camera inside the combustion chamber so i cant say for sure this is what happens but logic says it does. during the downstroke it will allow some (not much) coolant into the combustion chamber and during the upstroke it will push some exhaust (not much because the exhaust valves are open) out into the coolant. this is why a car that blows a headgasket in such a way tends to over heat. you will not see a loss in compression.

if you really stop to think about it. the amount of water entering is extremely minimal per downstroke. thats why the coolant level takes a very long time to decrease. people here are talking about hydrolocking your motor but that would take pretty much all of your coolant to do.

probably the most timing advance you would get would be 3-5 degrees. as far as poluted a/f mixture goes the amount of water is so minimal that i wouldnt polute it in any way. a set amount of oxygen will enter the chamber either way.

 

[91 white tsi]

You mentioned the intake stroke to bring in the coolant and the exhaust stroke to push some exhaust into the coolant but what about the compression and power strokes??? during the compression you would have air fuel mix being pushed out into the coolant........and i would imagine a loss in compression due to lost amount of air. then the power stroke would as well blow some more out into the coolant due to the explosion. another loss in power. and further more you once again are talking about minimal amounts of coolant in a single piston chamber. how in the hell is a computer going to change timing and air fuel based on one cylinder. and if for somereason it does you got lucky to hit the ?one? cylinder the computer uses to run the car?? sounds like i need to cut my head gasket on the lucky cylinder since you say no power loss....actually an increase and seems no negative side affects. Look on EBAY im going to start selling "pre-blown" head gaskets for performence gains. also included a free gallon of antifreeze to replunish whats lost

 

[awdtaylon]

I had hoped you would have realized that it takes a whole lot of force to push water which only has a max of 15 pounds pressure along with any negative pressure on the intake stroke. That's assuming you have NO boost forcing air into the cylr.
Cheers,
GTM

you completly missed everything i said. it doesnt take any force at all to push fluid into the chamber. the downstroke will suck it in (yes the 15 psi of water pressure will help abit). besically youre trying to argue that water cant enter the chamber because it requires to much force. i cant possibly imagine why people agree with you. when someone severely blows a gasket what do you think is all that white smoke coming out of the exhaust?

 

[awdtaylon]

You mentioned the intake stroke to bring in the coolant and the exhaust stroke to push some exhaust into the coolant but what about the compression and power strokes??? during the compression you would have air fuel mix being pushed out into the coolant........and i would imagine a loss in compression due to lost amount of air. then the power stroke would as well blow some more out into the coolant due to the explosion. another loss in power. and further more you once again are talking about minimal amounts of coolant in a single piston chamber. how in the hell is a computer going to change timing and air fuel based on one cylinder. and if for somereason it does you got lucky to hit the ?one? cylinder the computer uses to run the car?? sounds like i need to cut my head gasket on the lucky cylinder since you say no power loss....actually an increase and seems no negative side affects. Look on EBAY im going to start selling "pre-blown" head gaskets for performence gains. also included a free gallon of antifreeze to replunish whats lost

when did i say there are no negative consequenses. why is it you dont want your water injection system on during cruising or idling? and the computer doesnt adjust timing based on one cylinder. all tought the knock sensor is located in cylinder #2, it can detect knock in cylinder #4. also the o2 sensor reads data from all cylinders and sends it back to the ecu.

 

[91 white tsi]

there is a difference in severly blowning a head gasket and your claim to performance increased blown head gasket. a serverly blown head gasket is a DEFF losssss of power and water will be entering the cahmber. incase you forgot your trying to argue that there can be a hole that water can go thru to the sylinder but also at the same time not cause a loss of compression you need to stick with one argument and try to defend it. i cant see a blown headgasket with a built in PCV valvue or one way check valve.

 

[awdtaylon]

there is a difference in severly blowning a head gasket and your claim to performance increased blown head gasket. a serverly blown head gasket is a DEFF losssss of power and water will be entering the cahmber. incase you forgot your trying to argue that there can be a hole that water can go thru to the sylinder but also at the same time not cause a loss of compression you need to stick with one argument and try to defend it. i cant see a blown headgasket with a built in PCV valvue or one way check valve.

compression is not constant. your exhaust valves open 100 times wider than any hole you can have in your head gasket.

 

[huafist]

compression is not constant. your exhaust valves open 100 times wider than any hole you can have in your head gasket.

Valves open AND close. A breach in a head gasket is ALWAYS OPEN.

 

[91 white tsi]

Valves open AND close. A breach in a head gasket is ALWAYS OPEN.

this is exactly what i was saying. you cant have a performence increase with an always open hole in a COMPRESSION CHAMBER or you would loss that compression thus lossing HP and also lossing 1/4mile time at ET. We still havnt seen a vid of before and after the head gasket as he claimed to have. when its posted let me know i would love to see a 13 sec car go 12s with white smoke coming out the back side

 

[73-type-lt-ls1]

also the o2 sensor reads data from all cylinders and sends it back to the ecu.

Correct..

At what sampling rate?
How many times a second does the ECU adjust for AF based on it's O2 sensors sample rate?
Does a DSM go in to open loop at WOT? If so is it based off the last fuel cell reading?

How much cooler do you think your 1 cyl is running?

I almost gaurantee the ECU is still seeing an average based on the other cyl's and you are not seeing any timing increase of 3-5* That is a large increase from 1 cyl being a few degrees cooler don't you think?

You are poluting the A/F with the coolant reducing the explosion shall we call it.

You are loosing compression in the compression stroke when both intake and exhaust valves are closed. Probably sucking water in on the power stroke since it is the only real downward movement with the valves closed.

The reduced cyl temp is actually hurting you. A hotter cyl with cooler air and gas coming in creates a much better explosion than a cold cyl and same air/gas temp.

 

[GTM]

...
if you really stop to think about it. the amount of water entering is extremely minimal per downstroke. thats why the coolant level takes a very long time to decrease. people here are talking about hydrolocking your motor but that would take pretty much all of your coolant to do.

probably the most timing advance you would get would be 3-5 degrees. as far as poluted a/f mixture goes the amount of water is so minimal that i wouldnt polute it in any way. a set amount of oxygen will enter the chamber either way.

I'm not going to spend much more time with this for it just seems like I'm banging my head again the wall.

Both of those statements above and another in a subsequent post are not correct. The subsequent post was water coming in to the cylr to the point it's making smoke out the exhaust. If you do a compression check at this time you will probably see 90psi so you have lost 1/3 of the hp... period.

Before any water ever makes it's way into the cylr it has to open up at least 7+ microns in the meantime the o2,n,c are atom size I'll toss out a number 1/250,000 smaller that are making their way into the coolant. That's a given.

Now take an average of 2500psi combustion forcing past the gasket, for example a marble size bubble it will expand 166 times so now you got the displacement of 166 marbles that have to go somewhere because they are taking up space. Ah, the overflow bottle level starts to rise. Woops here comes another 166 marbles up goes the level and so on. Now we got all these being pushed around the cooling system and some collect in pocket above the combustion chamber keeping the water from exchanging heat so the temp starts to rise. The overflow starts to spill out onto the ground and a mix of bubbles and water make it into the overflow but you just keep making marbles but still no water in the cylr because it's not going to let those huge water molecules get past. That's a given.

....

For the life of me I see no relationship to timing and a blown head gasket but you now have mentioned at least twice. If you can do that to a leaking head gasket I just got to hear this one.

Honestly there, it just seems hopeless and my patience is wearing thin and the lump on my head is hurting. It would be better if you didn't keep sticking shoe in mouth but rather to ask questions. Consult with a head gasket maker, take some college physics, talk with people you respec and those won't be your close circle of friends. You won't find too many people out there with my skills that will give you the time I've spent with you.

I know you feel like you are backed in a corner but at least you have tried to be civil and I salute you for that. Don't believe everything you read for it could be a misprint. (bit of a joke there) I certainly have no need to misrepresent any thing I've written for it would make me look like a fool and I've long since past that stage. Try to be objective, get your facts right before getting out on that limb. Good science is always better than an unsupported opinion.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[eclpsd1]

I honestly can not believe a discussion about the HP Benefits has gone beyond someone telling this guy he wrong and leave it at that. It is a ridiculous concept, why dont i just add coolant to my gas tank and get the same effect.

 

[Defiant]

My apologies to all for not closing this thing on the first day.

Take it back to the other board. This one won't waste the time with it.

Closed.