Need a better understanding from serious DSMers

[73-type-lt-ls1]

Ok.. There is a local board to me called 831r.com. There is a guy that posts by the name hustlerracingtsi. You would have to log in register and all that to see his post. If you want to it is here http://831r.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=993&start=120


Here is my question.


Will a DSM run faster with a blown head gasket???



Here is what he claims. His exact words, cut and pasted from 831r.com.



its not that hard to comprehend how a blown head gasket will help performance. im not saying its a good thing and i would fix it as soon as possible but it could make your car faster. like i said its not just a theory its happened and its quite common too.

this would likely cause the car to run faster since coolant enters and cools the combustion chamber allowing a more agressive tune (leaner A/F and more timing)

I know of a few cars that have run their best times with a blown head gasket.



Any one care to comment on the blown head gasket circumstance.. I seem to know nothing coming from a 500rwhp LS1 and building a T101 turbo LS1 right now. Can some one please fill me in on what I seem to be missing??


BTW, I am linking this back to the original 831r.com post because hustler said he was going to put something on the DSM boards but I have failed to see it yet..



BTW, my argument is a leaky head gasket is not like water injection. WI is a misted controlled induction element. A blown headgasket 1) is not a mist, 2) is not controlled 3) in it's uncontrolled, unmisted status it is diluting the A/F causing the cyl to not burn properly loosing hp.


Any input is greatly appreciated.

 

[Syndicate13]

You're either joking or seriously naive when it comes to cars for posting this. And he's an idiot. While water is leaking into the combustion chambers to "cool" them you're also losing compression, and we all know that's good for horsepower.

 

[GTM]

...
this would likely cause the car to run faster since coolant enters and cools the combustion chamber allowing a more agressive tune (leaner A/F and more timing)
...
Any one care to comment on the blown head gasket circumstance.. I seem to know nothing coming from a 500rwhp LS1 and building a T101 turbo LS1 right now. Can some one please fill me in on what I seem to be missing??


BTW, I am linking this back to the original 831r.com post because hustler said he was going to put something on the DSM boards but I have failed to see it yet..
...BTW, my argument is a leaky head gasket is not like water injection. WI is a misted controlled induction element. A blown headgasket 1) is not a mist, 2) is not controlled 3) in it's uncontrolled, unmisted status it is diluting the A/F causing the cyl to not burn properly loosing hp.

Absolute hogwash and urban legend.

At combustion pressure of 2,000-3,000 psi it will force the gasses out but with water 70x more dense than air and maybe 15 pis from radiator cap it ain't gonna happen.

By the time the hole got big enough to let water in the combustion pressures would have escaped back through the same hole to such an extent it would act like a burned valve. You don't want to get into an argument with this one for you will be wasting your time.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[73-type-lt-ls1]

You're either joking or seriously naive when it comes to cars for posting this. And he's an idiot. While water is leaking into the combustion chambers to "cool" them you're also losing compression, and we all know that's good for horsepower.

I am not BSing.. This is what he really believes.. Again, I don't believe what he is saying, I have been trying to arguee it with him but he knows more than everyone out there. I linked this back to our original discussion to hopefully let him see he is wrong. Please give more input on this, Hopefully he is rgistered here and will come on and try and arguee his way out of this himself..

 

[91 white tsi]

Not only that but unless you have a blown head gasket in 4 places equal size so the same amount of coolant is going into each cylinder then there is no way for it to act as WI not only that but more likly to hydrolock and bend a rod

 

[73-type-lt-ls1]

Seems as though he did add it to a board.. Adifferent one at that.. Here is what they have to say.. Now mind you, he didn't really track the car and has no ET's to back his BS claims. He not once has prven the car runs these times!!

http://www.racingknowledge.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6467

 

[awdtaylon]

Seems as though he did add it to a board.. Adifferent one at that.. Here is what they have to say.. Now mind you, he didn't really track the car and has no ET's to back his BS claims. He not once has prven the car runs these times!!

http://www.racingknowledge.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6467

ok its me arguing against him. first of all I have ran my car at the track and i have it on video as proof. [73-type-lt-ls1] way of arguing against me is to try and turn everyone against me rather than face the actual argument. www.racingknowledge.org has some very reputable dsms. and the folks there know their cars. read what they posted .

 

[Defiant]

Good god, a leaking head gasket is not the same as water injection. It's like saying an overheated car will be faster, because burning aluminum off the piston crown will put out so much more energy than gasoline.

Spare yourself. Walk away. Don't be a web-arguing retard.

 

[GTM]

...
arguing against me is to try and turn everyone against me rather than face the actual argument. www.racingknowledge.org has some very reputable dsms. and the folks there know their cars. read what they posted .

First let me say that this thread is going to remain civil or it will be closed and you guys can duke it out elsewhere.

It's not that anyone is turning against you, it is the statements and conclusions are not based on fact. I don't need to look at any other site or consult with anyone, you are more than welcome to view my profile and search other posts.

We have no proof that the head gasket was blown. How did you determine it was leaking, did you use any test equipment? What were the compression readings?

Read my previous post and tell me what points are incorrect and give valid reasons to support your position.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[awdtaylon]

Good god, a leaking head gasket is not the same as water injection. It's like saying an overheated car will be faster, because burning aluminum off the piston crown will put out so much more energy than gasoline.

Spare yourself. Walk away. Don't be a web-arguing retard.

i never said it was the same as water injection. never did i say that. and im not web-arguing. he is the one who posted it on here and hes the one that connected the forums. he told me to post it somewere else so that i would see that i was wrong. i chose to post it in racingknowledge.org because of the fact that there are some very knowledgeable dsmers on that site. and without me mentioning any of my ideas they confirmed everything i told LS1 camaro .

 

[awdtaylon]

It's not that anyone is turning against you, it is the statements and conclusions are not based on fact.

Cheers,
GTM

i havent even posted anything on this site and everyone is already calling me an idiot and stuff like that. and why? because ls1camaro said some stuff about me and put words in my mouth. when i posted it in racingknowledge.org i never even mentioned him i had no need to talk bad about him, the way he felt he had to do so about me. i simply posted a scenario and let them talk about it.

 

[73-type-lt-ls1]

AWDtalon,


I never put words in your mouth.. I simply cut and pasted what you had to say from another board. Again, trying to help you see the light.


Your video is of your old car. The track times you mention in the other thread going from 13.2-3 to 12's is BS. You "painted a scenerio" which to most would be telling a BS story.


Again, all I'm trying to do is help you understand your friend is not running any faster with a blown head gasket.

 

[awdtaylon]

actually the video is of the last battle of the imports on holloween. i ran my current car. you put words in my mouth by saying i compared it to water injections when in fact i didnt. whatever im done with you.

 

[73-type-lt-ls1]

Please show me where I said you claimed it worked like water injection. I never directly said that.

I have always said you claim it is cooling down that cyl, changing the A/F and increasing timing.

 

[punishercb]

dude, who gives a damn. Just let it be, not worth it AT ALL

 

[JST2FST]

www.racingknowledge.org has some very reputable dsms. and the folks there know their cars. read what they posted .

There are a lot of people on this site that know their cars as well, and to tell you the truth I would trust what someone on this site told you if they are a DSM Wiseman or a Moderator before i trusted any one else from any other site.

 

[GTM]

actually the video is of the last battle of the imports on holloween. i ran my current car. you put words in my mouth by saying i compared it to water injections when in fact i didnt. whatever im done with you.

If I may, and not with the intent to smear egg on your face would you agree that upon closer examination it really would defy the laws of physics for that to happen.

I've played with water injection in some rather crude induction and never really realized much if any gain. It takes a whole lot of calories/btu to change from liquid to vapor/gas state, so some of the energy during combustion is used to heat the water so it will expand. So you could end up with less pressure thus less hp if it were not carefully controlled.

You guys are young, filled with piss and vinegar, and ready to take on the world and I don't know that that is a bad thing for progress can come of this. What isn't good is drawing conclusions _not_ based on true knowledge/fact and then forming an opinion which is then told to others. This is how urban legends get born.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[remmargorp]

Blown head gaskets result in Less Compression - Less Combustion - Less Performance. As GTM stated, show proof it was a blown head gasket that improved performance, don't be ignorant and just assume it was a blown head gasket.

 

[awdtaylon]

Absolute hogwash and urban legend.

At combustion pressure of 2,000-3,000 psi it will force the gasses out but with water 70x more dense than air and maybe 15 pis from radiator cap it ain't gonna happen.

By the time the hole got big enough to let water in the combustion pressures would have escaped back through the same hole to such an extent it would act like a burned valve. You don't want to get into an argument with this one for you will be wasting your time.

Cheers,
GTM

ok what the hell i got time. you are a DSM wise man right. what you say is to be believed. basically on the above statement you claimed it is phisically impossible for water to enter the combustion chamber. but let me ask you something. during the pistons downstroke does it not bring air in? what do you think is the pressure during the downstroke? now is it impossible for water to be sucked into the combustion chamber?

also just curious, and not trying to be a jerk, but what makes you a wise man? is it just cuz youve been on this site for a long time or have you actually done some work on dsms? I dont see any modifications on either your car or the moderators car so im just curious.

 

[awdtaylon]

Blown head gaskets result in Less Compression - Less Combustion - Less Performance. As GTM stated, show proof it was a blown head gasket that improved performance, don't be ignorant and just assume it was a blown head gasket.

not true my friend. what if you blow your gasket throught the cooling passage. how will you lose compression? i had it happen to me so i know. oh and i know the gasket was blown because a piece of it was sticking out the back of my head.

 

[73-type-lt-ls1]

during the pistons downstroke does it not bring air in? what do you think is the pressure during the downstroke? now is it impossible for water to be sucked into the combustion chamber?

I agree with you on this statement. This is why I mentioned it on the other board. However, I believe it is hurting performance.

Your tune is not based on water coming in to a cyl like a WI system.
You are not reprograming the ECU advancing the timing to make up for you blown HG WI system.
This is happening on 1 cyl, not all of them. How is the ECU going to figure out it needs to give 1 cyl a different A/F mixture? Or base it's timing map around 1 cyl?

Your basically saying that one cyl is is leaning out because it is cooler and advancing the timing. Even if it is running cooler, the ECU is averaging it's fuel and timing curves based on all 4 cyl not just 1.

Lets say for a second your theorey works.

How much timing advance do you think you will see (1 degree, 5 degrees)??
Do you think that timing advance is going to make up for the poluted A/F mixture?

 

[just_passed_you]

Why not duke this out at teamNABR.com ?
:thumbdown

yes huh! no way! yes huh!

lock the thread already.

 

[73-type-lt-ls1]

Why lock it.. We are discussing how things work right? Maybe he is on to something we are all missing?


I am still just looking for an understanding on how his theorey works.

 

[housegsx]

Who cares? So what if it is faster with a blown HG. "Hey everybody my car ran 2 tenths faster!" Who gives...the engine need rebuilt now anyway. It's pointless. Nobody is going to go out and remove their HG or start cutting slits between the water passages and cylinders.

 

[huafist]

ok what the hell i got time. you are a DSM wise man right. what you say is to be believed. basically on the above statement you claimed it is phisically impossible for water to enter the combustion chamber. but let me ask you something. during the pistons downstroke does it not bring air in? what do you think is the pressure during the downstroke? now is it impossible for water to be sucked into the combustion chamber?

also just curious, and not trying to be a jerk, but what makes you a wise man? is it just cuz youve been on this site for a long time or have you actually done some work on dsms? I dont see any modifications on either your car or the moderators car so im just curious.

He's not saying water can't enter the combustion chamber - he's saying that by the time the breach in the head gasket got large enough to allow water to enter the chamber, when the piston begins its upstroke it would force all the gases in the chamber out the breach before anything else because water is denser. By the time the piston reaches TDC you've got 90% coolant/water and 10% gas/air.
Basic physics will show you what he's saying here is true.
Now I know you're gonna say 'but the coolant system is under pressure, how can it be forced back into it?' The answer here is, your coolant system is under what? 15-18psi? The pressure in the combustion chamber is much, much higher than that. Fluids (yes, this includes gases) readily flow from areas of high pressure (combustion chamber) to areas of low pressure (coolant system). That's how it pushes it out.

And as far as why GTM is a wiseman? He knows his shit. I don't know him personally but I know enough about his advice on this forum to know that he's been in the business a while.