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General Minimum timing advance on stock setup?

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A Sharp

Proven Member
158
13
Nov 18, 2013
Platteville, Wisconsin
Hey,

I have a 95 Talon TSI with a stock ecu and a near-stock setup. At the moment I'm trying to diagnose a faulty knock sensor, or at least determine if I'm getting a lot of knock retard. I'm currently logging with a standard OBD II logger on my laptop (nothing dsm specific). What is the minimum timing advance I should see at WOT?

I know it's a noob question, but I've done a lot of searching and the only thing I found on this was here: http://www.vfaq.com/TMO/Tuning-Tips.htm

The above article states that timing advance shouldn't drop below 15* during a WOT pull. However, I think that it might only pertain to 1gs. Can anyone confirm or deny that this information is true for a 2g?

Thanks.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'm running about 12 PSI on a 14b.
 
The reason I'm asking this is because I'm noticing some pretty bad hesitation between 2k-3k RPM. So far I've ruled out boost/intake leaks, replaced the upstream O2 sensor, fixed my exhaust leaks, and replaced the spark plugs and wires.

About a hour ago I went out and logged a 3rd gear pull from about 1.5k RPM to 5k RPM at WOT. The timing advance starts out decently at about 17*, but then plummets to a measly 3* at around 2.5k RPM. Afterwards, it gradually rises to 10* and stays there.

From what I understand, the timing advance should be a lot higher.

Thoughts?
 
4
The reason I'm asking this is because I'm noticing some pretty bad hesitation between 2k-3k RPM. So far I've ruled out boost/intake leaks, replaced the upstream O2 sensor, fixed my exhaust leaks, and replaced the spark plugs and wires.

About a hour ago I went out and logged a 3rd gear pull from about 1.5k RPM to 5k RPM at WOT. The timing advance starts out decently at about 17*, but then plummets to a measly 3* at around 2.5k RPM. Afterwards, it gradually rises to 10* and stays there.

From what I understand, the timing advance should be a lot higher.

Thoughts?
If you are dropping to 3* stop doing any wot pulls because the ecu is seeing detonation which explains your hesitation at or around 2.5k. This type of detonation can cause engine damage eventually. From my calculations you are seeing 42 counts of knock considering your car is pulling 14* of timing on a 2g if I can remember correctly for every 3 count of knock a 2g ecu will pulls 1.1 degree of timing. You are getting 42ish counts of knock which is not good.
 
Thanks for the info guys!

Can you see your knock counts? Might be pulling timing or somthing else in the tune is off. Timing is more aggressive in 1g than 2gs just remember that. Any check engine light? How high did you boost leak test?

No, I can't see knock counts without Link or another platform-specific interface. The OBD II interface simply doesn't support it :/. My check engine light is always on because someone did a poor job of an EGR delete. They threw away all the solenoids so I have a constant CEL. They also didn't use a blockoff plate, and just left the EGR valve on the car. Anyhow, I went out to see if any additional codes have popped up, and there is now a P0303 code (misfire in cylinder 3). Lastly, I boost leak tested to 15 PSI. Again, I'm running 12 PSI.

If you are dropping to 3* stop doing any wot pulls because the ecu is seeing detonation which explains your hesitation at or around 2.5k. This type of detonation can cause engine damage eventually. From my calculations you are seeing 42 counts of knock considering your car is pulling 14* of timing on a 2g if I can remember correctly for every 3 count of knock a 2g ecu will pulls 1.1 degree of timing. You are getting 42ish counts of knock which is not good.

Could this indicate phantom knock and/or a bad knock sensor? I just can't see how it could actually be knocking like crazy at 2.5k RPM. The car is running at nearly stock levels with a completely stock tune. By 2.5k the turbo is only making like 5 PSI of boost. Also, I always buy at least 91 octane gas and my coolant temps stay between 204 to 210 degrees, depending on the weather.

I guess the AFR is something to consider as well, but I unfortunately do not have a wideband.
 
Thanks for the info guys!



No, I can't see knock counts without Link or another platform-specific interface. The OBD II interface simply doesn't support it :/. My check engine light is always on because someone did a poor job of an EGR delete. They threw away all the solenoids so I have a constant CEL. They also didn't use a blockoff plate, and just left the EGR valve on the car. Anyhow, I went out to see if any additional codes have popped up, and there is now a P0303 code (misfire in cylinder 3). Lastly, I boost leak tested to 15 PSI. Again, I'm running 12 PSI.



Could this indicate phantom knock and/or a bad knock sensor? I just can't see how it could actually be knocking like crazy at 2.5k RPM. The car is running at nearly stock levels with a completely stock tune. By 2.5k the turbo is only making like 5 PSI of boost. Also, I always buy at least 91 octane gas and my coolant temps stay between 204 to 210 degrees, depending on the weather.

I guess the AFR is something to consider as well, but I unfortunately do not have a wideband.
It could very well indicate phantom knock which would be a sign of a mechanical issue. But your peak timing of 10 degrees still below the 16 degrees programmed into the stock ecu.
 
Could you please explain how timing advance and the timing map are related? I'm confused because if I take a look at the stock timing map and follow the high load rows, my timing doesn't seem to be too far off at all. I found the stock timing map here btw: http://www.jeffgst.com/id20.html.

So, are timing advance and the timing described in the timing map the same thing? And if so, why does the ECU shoot for 16* and not follow the timing map?

Thanks again.
 
I log using tatric 2 cable. I'm also pretty much stock. My timing curve on WOT is very similar to yours. My car runs very well, my knock counts are relatively low for most pulls 0-5. During normal driving shortly after warm up I see horrendous knock counts up to 50. It doesn't change with octane booster. Wise men have told me it's probably phantom knock. It's a good idea for anyone to get a logging solution so they can see the knock counts, timing and engine loads at the same moment in time. However from other posts and logs I've read on here your timing sounds pretty average. If you're only holding 5psi at 2500 at WOT, then I'm thinking you need a new BOV. I changed my stock one and I hold 15 all day now.
 
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Could you please explain how timing advance and the timing map are related? I'm confused because if I take a look at the stock timing map and follow the high load rows, my timing doesn't seem to be too far off at all. I found the stock timing map here btw: http://www.jeffgst.com/id20.html.

So, are timing advance and the timing described in the timing map the same thing? And if so, why does the ECU shoot for 16* and not follow the timing map?

Thanks again.
Look at post 9 it has a stock 2g timing map. This Is The Map The Ecu use http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/can-anyone-point-me-to-a-2g-timing-map.451671/
 
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I log using tatric 2 cable. I'm also pretty much stock. My timing curve on WOT is very similar to yours. My car runs very well, my knock counts are relatively low for most pulls 0-5. During normal driving shortly after warm up I see horrendous knock counts up to 50. It doesn't change with octane booster. Wise men have told me it's probably phantom knock. It's a good idea for anyone to get a logging solution so they can see the knock counts, timing and engine loads at the same moment in time. However from other posts and logs I've read on here your timing sounds pretty average. If you're only holding 5psi at 2500 at WOT, then I'm thinking you need a new BOV. I changed my stock one and I hold 15 all day now.

Hmmm... Well I'm running a 1g BOV that holds up just fine when I BLT. I guess what I meant to say was that at 2500 RPM my turbo is still spooling. By the time I hit 3k RPM I'm at full boost, which is 12 PSI in my case. But yeah, would be nice to have a comprehensive logging solution LOL.

Look at post 9 it has a stock 2g timing map. This Is The Map The Ecu use Only During WOT http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/can-anyone-point-me-to-a-2g-timing-map.451671/

As I mentioned before, the pull I did was only from 2k-5k RPM at WOT. According to the stock timing map, I'd need to hit 6k RPM before I got 16* of timing, correct?
I have circled the area in the timing map that is designated for 2k-5k RPM at WOT below:
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Wouldn't it be correct for my car's timing to drop to 3* at 2500 RPM and then slowly rise to 10* by 5k RPM?
 

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Hmmm... Well I'm running a 1g BOV that holds up just fine when I BLT. I guess what I meant to say was that at 2500 RPM my turbo is still spooling. By the time I hit 3k RPM I'm at full boost, which is 12 PSI in my case. But yeah, would be nice to have a comprehensive logging solution LOL.



As I mentioned before, the pull I did was only from 2k-5k RPM at WOT. According to the stock timing map, I'd need to hit 6k RPM before I got 16* of timing, correct?
I have circled the area in the timing map that is designated for 2k-5k RPM at WOT below:
You must be logged in to view this image or video.


Wouldn't it be correct for my car's timing to drop to 3* at 2500 RPM and then slowly rise to 10* by 5k RPM?
To get that deep into the timing map that early you will have to be making some massive amounts of power. Keep in mind that's base timing the ecu will chose a cell from that map and subtract timing if it sees knock.
 
To get that deep into the timing map that early you will have to be making some massive amounts of power. Keep in mind that's base timing the ecu will chose a cell from that map and subtract timing if it sees knock.

Okay thanks man, that makes sense. After doing some more reading, I'm understanding that a nearly stock car's ecu should start in the upper left hand corner of the timing map and move sort of diagonally down and to the right through the cells. This means that, without knock, I should see between 15* and 20* across the board with my setup like you said. I guess it's definitely time to look into knock then haha.

Phantom knock aside, I'm not really sure what could be causing such bad knock though. As I said above, I've ruled out pretty much everything I can think of.
 
You mentioned that you have a P0303 Misfire code for cylinder 3, have you sorted out that issue?
Can you list the o2 sensor and spark plugs you bought as well? gap ?
The misfire issue has to be fixed before you get into phantom knock or if the problem is from the knock sensor at all. Keep in mind the ecu can pull timing with an issue like that.
The ecu map shows load X rpm...You should be in around 1.0 range cells at your boost level
 
Please beat me if I'm wrong, I certainly haven't been wrenching as much as most of you. Asharp does a WOT from 1500-5000. At 2500 he reports boost of 5 psi, and some noticeable hesitation. Our timing advance map shows rpm vs load. Load is different from power, a stock engine can have maximum load as the ECU sees it. A WOT pull should cause the ECU to see heavy load at least at first, it depends somewhat on airflow per rev. That's why I'm suggesting that it's not abnormal to use the higher load values during the initial buildup of a WOT. 5 psi at 2500 might correspond to a load of around 1, but IMO 5 psi at WOT strongly suggests a leak somewhere (there are many ways to mess up a BLT). Now the ECU is determining load by airflow not psi, so with a leak the ECU is using a higher load number and of course the car itself is struggling with a leak and less than optimal timing. Ok, let the beatings begin!
 
You mentioned that you have a P0303 Misfire code for cylinder 3, have you sorted out that issue?
Can you list the o2 sensor and spark plugs you bought as well? gap ?
The misfire issue has to be fixed before you get into phantom knock or if the problem is from the knock sensor at all. Keep in mind the ecu can pull timing with an issue like that.
The ecu map shows load X rpm...You should be in around 1.0 range cells at your boost level

The engine misfire seems to be intermittent. I have only seen it throw that code once. A few weeks ago, I disconnected the battery to do some work which, of course, cleared the codes. The misfire code hasn't come back, and the only code I'm seeing now is for the EGR system (which the previous owner removed). The plugs I'm using are NGK BPR6ES gapped to .028. The O2 sensor is a Bosch unit I got from Oreilly's. Here's a link for it: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BOS0/13425/02205.oap?year=1995&make=Eagle&model=Talon&vi=1103195&ck=Search_oxygen!s!air-fuel ratio sensor_1103195_2006&keyword=oxygen!s!air-fuel ratio sensor. Also, I think my O2 values are okay. The voltage oscillates at idle/cruise and I get a constant 0.94 V at WOT.

But I think you made very good point on the misfire. I'll have to look into it further.

Can you log load? Like kel said you shouldn't be getting that deep into the map. I suspect you have a ks problem. Go buy a couple gallons of 110 and put it in the tank and see if the problem improves

Yes I can log load. I guess should have thought of adding that to the list of parameters to log :/ . Anyhow, putting some race gas in the car sounds like a good troubleshooter. I'll have to see if I can find someone who sells it in Southwest WI.

Please beat me if I'm wrong, I certainly haven't been wrenching as much as most of you. Asharp does a WOT from 1500-5000. At 2500 he reports boost of 5 psi, and some noticeable hesitation. Our timing advance map shows rpm vs load. Load is different from power, a stock engine can have maximum load as the ECU sees it. A WOT pull should cause the ECU to see heavy load at least at first, it depends somewhat on airflow per rev. That's why I'm suggesting that it's not abnormal to use the higher load values during the initial buildup of a WOT. 5 psi at 2500 might correspond to a load of around 1, but IMO 5 psi at WOT strongly suggests a leak somewhere (there are many ways to mess up a BLT). Now the ECU is determining load by airflow not psi, so with a leak the ECU is using a higher load number and of course the car itself is struggling with a leak and less than optimal timing. Ok, let the beatings begin!

I think I might have bee a bit confusing with my wording. At 2500 rpm my turbo is still spooling, so the boost is around 5 PSI, but by 3000 RPM the boost increases to 12 PSI and stays there until redline. In other words 5 PSI is NOT my max boost. Or are you saying that my turbo is building boost too slowly? I suppose it wouldn't hurt to revisit the BLT anyhow LOL.

I'll be logging engine load the next time I take a drive, so I can get back you guys on the load values I get.

Lastly, I have since replaced the knock sensor with a new OE unit from Mitsubishi, but it didn't help the problem at all. I don't have the special socket for the sensor, so I couldn't torque it. I just gently tightened it a bit with an adjustable wrench. Maybe it's still too tight though. I'll try loosening it up some and putting threadlock on it so it won't go anywhere. The old one was leaking goo pretty badly, so it was probably time for a new one anyway.

Thanks for the help.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the hesitation/stuttering issues are much worse when the car is cold. If I'm not gentile with it before it gets close to operating temp, it can even buck violently. Again, this happens between 2k - 3k RPM.
 
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