Lowering coolant temps on the track

[99redgst]

I participated in my first open lapping day a couple weekends ago. It didn't take too many laps before my car started to run hot. It was around 230 at most times but got up in the 240s at the highest. I know a DSM running hot on the track is nothing new, but I want to find a solution. I have a Koyo with 2 12" Spals mounted on it now(only had the stock fan for the track day). I don't belive the problem is with the radiator. I think the main problem is with the waterpipe and how close the turbine housing is to it. After some hard driving for about 10 minutes I have seen my exhuast mani, turbine housing and o2 housing glowing red. My therory is that the coolant is being heated in the waterpipe so by the time the it gets to the waterpump its already too hot.

So here is what I plan on trying. I want to eliminate the waterpipe. Put an AN fitting on the waterpump and route the lower hose to the drivers side of the radiator. Here are the pros and cons as I see it.

Pros:
Keep the coolant away from the largest heat source in the engine bay.
Eliminate all coolant hoses, just have AN radiator hoses, reduced chance of hose cracking or exploding.
Lower radiator hose will no longer be right next to the air intake, hopefully reducing intake air temps.

Cons:
Most likely going to lose heater core(not a big deal as this car is mostly used on the track)
Somewhat expensive. AN fittings and hose, modifing radiator

I would like to hear some feedback on this idea. Any flaws come to mind? Any other input on the subject is welcome. Right now I am 90% sure I am going to do this. As long as no major flaws with this plan are brought up I will go through with it.

Heres a pic of where the new lower radiator hose would go.(Red line, aren't my paint skills awesome )

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[asian312]

Welcome to the crowd!

I run an FP manifold as well and havn't experienced any issues with over heating under track conditions (but I did skip the summer events). I'm running the stock radiator and fans as well.

230 degree seems a tad bit on the hot side. Have you checked to make sure your thermostat and radiator cap are in good working order? I know alot of people dont like buying OEM parts, but the Mitsu piece has a slightly larger opening than what I've found from local auto parts stores. For me this made the all the difference and worked better than my 170 unit from NAPA. Also if you've overheated once, there is a tendency for thermostats to stick and can cause reoccuring problems. I would recommend replacing it first as preventative maintainence and pick up a 1.3bar radiator cap in the process.

Other less drastic solutions are proper coolant/water mix (unless your organization does not allow coolant), water wetter, and hood vents for heat extraction does wonders. Also check your tune and maybe turn down the boost and see if that helps.

 

[99redgst]

Brand new OEM thermostat and cap. Fresh coolant 30/70 mixture. Tune was fine, more conservative than I normally run it. The track I was on was a short track(primary use is for karts) in which the highest speed reached was about 70mph, so that probably didn't help matters. It was also hot that day, upper 80's maybe 90. While driving on the street I see coolant temps around 200-210 which is also higher than I would like to see. I have driven the car without the hood on(not on the track) and there was no change in temp. I have gone through everything possable other than making some sort of ducting to get fresh air to the radiator. I have measured the temp of the exhuast manifold while ideling after driving it and it was at 800 degrees, I am sure it gets hotter when on the track. That heat has got to be getting absorbed into the waterpipe to some extent.

 

[asian312]

I see. Pretty much covered the gambit then. The only other difference I noticed on your profile is a FMIC. Maybe a little ducting to provide air to the radiator could be the trick.

 

[Locke]

See http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224201 for getting more air through the radiator. Read the entire thread.

 

[99redgst]

I have read that thread before, as well as many others on here, the link forums and other forums. I am well aware of what others have done. I will be making ducting for the radiator but I don't see that helping lower the temps 30 degrees like I would like. I am not asking for advice on methods to lower the temps. I want feedback on my idea. Considering the waterpipe is surounded by objects radiating heat of 800 degrees and more, I don't see how it could not be benificial to route the coolant away from it. Unless someone can give me a good reason that this would be a bad idea(money and labor are not an issue) I will be doing this. I don't mind being a guinea pig. If it doesn't help, which I have a very hard time beliving that it wouldn't, at least I get som AN radiator hoses out of the deal.

 

[Ludachris]

If you have an FMIC (and A/C) you're going to be fighting cooling issues forever. I can tell you what worked for me... I pulled my A/C so I don't have that to fight against. I was still seeing the temps go up on the track though. I did all the basics, even got a larger custom PWR radiator. It wasn't until I vented my hood that temps stayed lower on the track.

Think about it - you can do everything possible to try and bring more air into the radiator but if it has no place to go once it goes through you're going to have a lot of hot air just sitting right in between the manifold/turbo and the radiator. To make it efficient you need to vent your hood to allow the hot air to escape.

It's the only mod that worked for me. It might work well for you. And don't just go cutting a hole in your hood and use wire mesh - use a good vent that acts as a louver so that air can escape at higher speeds.

 

[Ludachris]

As for your idea I think it's worth exploring. My only question would be whether or not the radiator is designed to flow that way. I would want to ask the manufacturer to see what kind of affect they think it will have on the efficiency of the radiator. If they say it will work I'd say try it!

However, I still think you'll be fighting the issue of hot air pooling up under the hood though. That will prevent you from being able to lower the temps as much as you want.

We have a guy here who raced his car for a few seasons and didn't have cooling issues on a stock water pipe configuration. I'm no longer having cooling issues except on really hot days. You can make it work without rerouting the water pipe but the trick is to first find out why you're running hot after doing all the same things we've done. You got me thinking about painting the water pipe with super-hi temp paint now...

 

[99redgst]

AC is gone. This is basiclly a track car that sees some street time. I have put less than 3k on it this year and most of those miles is driving to a track or autocross, or tuning. I have no problem getting rid of anything that is not necessary for track use. I am running a Bushur race FMIC so I am sure that isn't helping the airflow to the radiator. As far as the radiator flow goes, I don't see why it wouldn't work. Coolant would be entering near the top passenger side and flowing to the drivers side on the bottom. I would think it would almost work better since it has to flow across the core instead of the inlet and outlet being on top of each other. As far as putting hood vents in, I would like to but am a little leary to hack up my CF hood. Know anywhere to get a nice hood vent?

 

[mavisky]

Have you considered simply heat wrapping the water pipe?

Boxing in the radiator / fmic / front bumper inlet is the best way. I'll be doing mine sometime for sure.

Here's a great example.

http://gallery.indystars.org/d/81336-2/2003_09_21_10_11_04.jpg
http://gallery.indystars.org/d/81346-2/2003_09_27_19_57_22.jpg

Forcing everything through the fmic and then from there back through to the radiator.
http://gallery.indystars.org/d/81342-2/2003_09_27_11_58_40.jpg

Sealed around intercooler pipes even
http://gallery.indystars.org/d/81344-2/2003_09_27_19_16_34.jpg

 

[99redgst]

The other major reason I want to do this is to get that lower radiator hose away from the intake. I have been batteling higher intake temps as well. I made a CAI but it doesn't help a whole lot when the radiator hose is pretty much touching it. I see this option as a win, win. Lower coolant and intake temps. I am pretty sure I will have to ditch the heater core, but again, this is mostly a race car. Not a big deal.

 

[99redgst]

Have you considered simply heat wrapping the water pipe?

Boxing in the radiator / fmic / front bumper inlet is the best way. I'll be doing mine sometime for sure.

Here's a great example.

Wow, that is a little more elaborate than I was thinking. I think I with start with my original idea and see how that works and go from there. Here is an illustration, using my uber paint skills again. I think it get the point across, just trying to get fresh air directed to the radiator. Similar to the street sign mod in the other thread.

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[Ludachris]

AC is gone. This is basiclly a track car that sees some street time. I have put less than 3k on it this year and most of those miles is driving to a track or autocross, or tuning. I have no problem getting rid of anything that is not necessary for track use. I am running a Bushur race FMIC so I am sure that isn't helping the airflow to the radiator. As far as the radiator flow goes, I don't see why it wouldn't work. Coolant would be entering near the top passenger side and flowing to the drivers side on the bottom. I would think it would almost work better since it has to flow across the core instead of the inlet and outlet being on top of each other. As far as putting hood vents in, I would like to but am a little leary to hack up my CF hood. Know anywhere to get a nice hood vent?

I got mine from Carbontrix.com - a division of RRE. It's carbon fiber so it should match your hood perfectly.

Again, I can't stress this enough - a hood vent will likely make a huge improvement for you. Take a look at any road raced turbocharged car, you'll see hood venting 99% of the time. Talk to the guys at RRE who have raced these cars for years and they'll tell you how important venting your hood is if you are serious about tracking your car. You can try all sorts of different mods but you'll need to vent your hood to let the hot air escape. Again, this is the mod that made the single biggest impact on my cooling issues.

I'll probably consider addressing the water pipe now, but it never hurts to try all the stuff that other people who have raced these cars have had success with first. The only one you're not doing is venting your hood.

 

[Ludachris]

On a side note - how does the car handle without power steering?

 

[99redgst]

I like it better than PS. Seems like you can "feel the road better" Hard to explain. Doing Y turns is a pain. Also at the lapping day, I got pretty sideways on the same corner as Talontsidriver(as seen in this thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266219), the wheel snapped out of my hands for a split second, wasn't expecting it, but I recoved. I got sideways a couple more times but was able to control it since I knew what to expect. Here are the results from the first autox I competed in without PS:http://www.fvscc.com/results/20070715_fin.htm I a in SM(Shawn Stashek) Seemed to work out well considering saying my car is not the ideal autox setup would be an understatement(50trim, FP2s, stock suspension, street tires). I posted some beter times than a couple vettes and STIs on R compounds so I was very happy. It is a PS rack with the lines looped and I don't regret it at all, have no plans of reinstalling it. I could see how some people may not like it, but I do.

 

[underradar92]

The heat from the turbo and the other exhaust stuff is radiant heat which cannot be regulated effectively with airflow.

The coolant in the waterpipe is moving rather quickly and is a decent volume so as not to absorb a whole lot of heat in the brief time it spends behind the turbo.

That said, I don't like to leave any rock I can think of unturned, so I did this.

Reflective heat cloth wrapped around the offending length of waterpipe. (see pic.)

S.S. shield over the turbo, where the radiator (absorber in this area) sees the radiant heat. Also one near the alternator, (sort of visible in pic #3) FWIW. Still developing one for the wastegate plumbing.

Ducting around the FMIC, directing as much of the airflow through the "mouths" in the facia, through the radiator, not limited to only the flow that has been in the "interheater" in this case. That air is heated already, so I let airflow around it.

This setup hasn't seen a track day with the front mount as of yet, but with the side mount, an uncoated manifold, and the 2 s.s. shields not in place, (I know, apples and hammers ) it was flawless. I'm hoping for good results with this setup.

Due to the previously mentioned problems, I swore I'd not run a FMIC, but got one anyway, now I will have to deal with it.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Wow those temps are high and to think I was freaking out about 215 creeping to 220, even brought the car in at 220. You sound like youve got the bases covered except for a vent and getting rid of the a/c. I sit around 210 degrees and I still find that too hot, im working on some stuff to bring my temps down such as exhaust wrapping EVERYTHING! and even thinking of heat reflective tape around all ic piping and air intake pipe. There is no room for me to pull air between fmic and radiator but that picture of that ducting on that 1g is outrageous, I wish I had the time or skill to try and make one of those.

Run the carbontrix vent, it helped me out a lot at this past weekend's hpde...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/D_Eclipse9916/djtracklarge2.jpg

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[mavisky]

That ducting I posted is actually for a 97-98 Talon.

 

[Pro3racer]

Shawn, i believe shepard is trying something new with his cooling system(eliminating the stock thermo-housing i think), you might want to shoot him an email about his idea or plans. I think you just need to do some venting. I pulled that back weatherstripping off my firewall, and instantly started feeling alot of heat coming out(i know physics says pressure will force air down there, but if fresh air goes in there, its good.

 

[99redgst]

Shawn, i believe shepard is trying something new with his cooling system(eliminating the stock thermo-housing i think), you might want to shoot him an email about his idea or plans. I think you just need to do some venting. I pulled that back weatherstripping off my firewall, and instantly started feeling alot of heat coming out(i know physics says pressure will force air down there, but if fresh air goes in there, its good.

Well, Shep and I use our cars for very different things. I'm not so sure that what he is doing would be ideal for the road course.

 

[silver bullit]

Have you done a fluid change maybe added some water wetter, better water pump, lower temp thermostat?

 

[99redgst]

Fresh coolant, OEM water pump. A lower temp thermostat will just delay the overheating at best. I'm not really looking for suggestions on how to lower my temps. There are plenty of threads out there discussing that already. I want feedback on my plan, which I see no reason not to do. I will be putting a vent on, but will be doing this mod as well since no one has pointed out a negative to doing it.

 

[Pro3racer]

So, you plan on eliminating your FIAV then as well? I'm trying to picture all the lines, but the radiator should actually function better with the fluid having to move across the radiator.

 

[mavisky]

I pulled that back weatherstripping off my firewall, and instantly started feeling alot of heat coming out(i know physics says pressure will force air down there, but if fresh air goes in there, its good.

Shoving more air in there will just cause higher pressures and more aerodynamic drag under the car. Need to get it out of that engine bay somehow as it's only exit strategy is underneath the car right now.

 

[99redgst]

So, you plan on eliminating your FIAV then as well? I'm trying to picture all the lines, but the radiator should actually function better with the fluid having to move across the radiator.

The only coolant lines remaining will be the upper and lower radiator hoses, which will be -16 AN.