2G low compression all cylinders

[diamondsm]

ive done my research and i am stumped so hopfully i can get some help i will add every detail i know

1995 eagle talon tsi

i bought the tsi (running but with a blown head gasket) i tried to drive it home the car started smoking and over heating i pulled over, shut the car off let it cool down tried to start it and nothing so decided to tow it home....got it home took off the head took it to my mechinest they told me it was warped past repair....i then got a used head off CL took it back to my mechinest had it surfaced, presure tested and 1 valve guide replaced(i broke the valve with my home made valve spring compressor) i put all new exhaust & intake valves in.....put the car back together and it would not start i thought it was timing i timed it 3 times thinking that was off......then i did a compression test


resaults of test ( car will not start so could not warm engine first)

30psi 45psi 90psi 30psi (first test

30psi 40psi 95psi 35psi ( second test thought i did the first test wrong

40psi 50psi 105psi 60psi (third test put half cap of oil in cylinders

40psi 50psi 110psi 70psi (i removed all spark plugs and turned it over to blow out the extra oil from the third test before trhen did fourth test


i then took the head off again and inspected it (i thought i got hydroloc in my lifters causing the valves to not completely seat, i replaced the hydraulic lifters with new 3rd gen lifters put the head back on and it still would not start......i then went back to timing ....timed it about 5 different times by the book every time i cranked it 6 rotations and the marks all lined up ......did anoher compression test

35psi 60psi 35psi 58psi


i then removed the head again with the head off the car i turned the cams by hand and all my valves are seating

so to break it down new head presure checked and surfaced new valves new hydraulic lifters new head gasket and no compression??

valves i got were new but i got them from a frien..... he said they were stock valves
i was also thinking my rings maybe but i have even compression across the bored my last test? the cylinder walls have a little bit of build up but no pits or scaring


could all my rings go at once from over heating?
could valve hight cause no comprssion even if i can still get all valves to seat?
could weak valve springs cause no compression?
could it still be timing?


any help is good im stuck if im not online you can txt me 360-640-9653

 

[kchaazz]

Rings could have all been fried from overheating or the rings/lands could be busted up and youd never see it just by looking at the tops of the pistons with the head off. While those numbers are extremely low, compression test is best done with the motor warmed up. Regarding the no start, did you make sure all your sensors are plugged in and the plug wires are in the correct order??

 

[92AWDHX40]

Sounds like you need to pull the head and have the engine serviced with compression that low. Too much to read, anything is possible, pick one step and do it first. Hard to read your thread too.

 

[camsmurdered2g]

Sounds like you need to pull the head and have the engine serviced with compression that low. Too much to read, anything is possible, pick one step and do it first. Hard to read your thread too.

how do you expect to help anyone if you glance over their post?

Anywho, I used to be an automotive machinist for Napa so this is my area pretty much.

First I would eliminate the head as the problem by getting it pressure checked and vacuum tested. This will tell you if the head is warped/cracked and will let you know if the valves are seating correctly. If those tests check out then it is probably your rings. I would spray soap and water on the injectors and spark plugs and turn it over just to eliminate those also. Hopefully it is a mistake made by the machinist and you can get it fixed for free .. Also you can't eyeball valves and say they are seating correctly, it must be vacuum tested to be sure. The vacuum test would also rule out valve springs if it checks out.

I would lean towards rings considering when you put oil in every number went up, meaning the rings are shot and not sealing as they should. Good luck and update us!

 

[BogusSVO]

1995 eagle talon tsi

itook off the head took it to my mechinest they told me it was warped past repair....i then got a used head off CL took it back to my mechinest had it surfaced, presure tested and 1 valve guide replaced(i broke the valve with my home made valve spring compressor) i put all new exhaust & intake valves in.....put the car back together and it would not start i thought it was timing i timed it 3 times thinking that was off......then i did a compression test


so to break it down new head presure checked and surfaced new valves new hydraulic lifters new head gasket and no compression??

valves i got were new but i got them from a frien..... he said they were stock valves

Anywho, I used to be an automotive machinist for Napa so this is my area pretty much.

First I would eliminate the head as the problem by getting it pressure checked and vacuum tested. This will tell you if the head is warped/cracked and will let you know if the valves are seating correctly. If those tests check out then it is probably your rings. Anywho, I used to be an automotive machinist for Napa so this is my area pretty much.

First I would eliminate the head as the problem by getting it pressure checked and vacuum tested. This will tell you if the head is warped/cracked and will let you know if the valves are seating correctly.

He has had it pressure tested.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...how-aluminum-head-pressure-tested-cracks.html

If those tests check out then it is probably your rings. I would spray soap and water on the injectors and spark plugs and turn it over just to eliminate those also. Hopefully it is a mistake made by the machinist and you can get it fixed for free .. Also you can't eyeball valves and say they are seating correctly, it must be vacuum tested to be sure. The vacuum test would also rule out valve springs if it checks out.

I will agree a vacuum test or a fluid test need to be done to check the valve to seat seal, A vac test will NOT let you know what shape the valve springs are in.

To test valve springs is a diffrent test.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341287-how-test-valve-springs.html

I would lean towards rings considering when you put oil in every number went up, meaning the rings are shot and not sealing as they should. Good luck and update us!

You can perform a quick and easy fluid test at the house to check the valve to seat seal,while you have the head off the engine.

Pull the cams out of the head, then pour fluid in the runner, count to 5, if a drop or two form in the combustion chamber, you are OK.
If a little runs out of the valve, you have valve sealing issues that need to be delt with, a proper valve job.
Once you do one side, flip it and do the other.

You had the head surfaced, How was that done?
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...0613-why-not-let-your-head-belt-surfaced.html

Also you said that you a friend gave you some new valves from a friend.
New out of the box new?
Or new to you used valves?
If they were used valves, did you have the valve face ground?
Not really what I was looking for, but you should get the idea.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341288-why-have-your-valves-back-cut.html

At a minumim lap the valves in?
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/341636-how-lap-valve.html

If the valves pass the vacuum or fluid test, the rings are looking like a good suspect.

I would rotate the engine over so all 4 pistons are at mid stroke, then pour even amout of oil on top of the piston, appox 1-2 inches. Walk away for a few hours/overnight.

When you come back, look at the level of the oil, if all is even still on top of the engine, the rings should be fine.
But if one or 2 pistons have way less oil on top, I would suspect bad rings in those cylinders.

 

[diamondsm]

Rings could have all been fried from overheating or the rings/lands could be busted up and youd never see it just by looking at the tops of the pistons with the head off. While those numbers are extremely low, compression test is best done with the motor warmed up. Regarding the no start, did you make sure all your sensors are plugged in and the plug wires are in the correct order??

the car will not start so i can not warm the engine .....and yes everything was corectly plug in, the firing order is on the coil im pretty sure the no start is due to the low compression tho, now as for the rings even tho its extremely low there is even compression across the bored

 

[Anubis_4_99]

the car will not start so i can not warm the engine .....and yes everything was corectly plug in, the firing order is on the coil im pretty sure the no start is due to the low compression tho, now as for the rings even tho its extremely low there is even compression across the bored

doesn't matter if it's even across the board. those numbers are extremely low and why beyond the service limit. you have had your head off 3 times now, unless you missed something blatantly obvious, its not your problem.

your more then likely looking at a rebuild, or swapping in a good motor. this is why you always tow a vehicle with a known blown HG. or avoid buying them altogether unless your prepared to rebuild the motor.

*edit*

by the way, here are the compression stats for the 2G turbo motor, in case you didn't know them.

2G (95-99) T/E 2.0L 4G63 Turbo engine
Compression ratio 8.5:1
Standard compression 178 psi
Service limit 133 psi

*edit 2*

i am curious though, if you've supposedly had your timing right every time, why were your first compression test numbers, and your last so different?

 

[diamondsm]

He has had it pressure tested.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...how-aluminum-head-pressure-tested-cracks.html



I will agree a vacuum test or a fluid test need to be done to check the valve to seat seal, A vac test will NOT let you know what shape the valve springs are in.

To test valve springs is a diffrent test.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341287-how-test-valve-springs.html




You can perform a quick and easy fluid test at the house to check the valve to seat seal,while you have the head off the engine.

Pull the cams out of the head, then pour fluid in the runner, count to 5, if a drop or two form in the combustion chamber, you are OK.
If a little runs out of the valve, you have valve sealing issues that need to be delt with, a proper valve job.
Once you do one side, flip it and do the other.

You had the head surfaced, How was that done?
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...0613-why-not-let-your-head-belt-surfaced.html

Also you said that you a friend gave you some new valves from a friend.
New out of the box new?
Or new to you used valves?
If they were used valves, did you have the valve face ground?
Not really what I was looking for, but you should get the idea.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341288-why-have-your-valves-back-cut.html

At a minumim lap the valves in?
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/341636-how-lap-valve.html

If the valves pass the vacuum or fluid test, the rings are looking like a good suspect.

I would rotate the engine over so all 4 pistons are at mid stroke, then pour even amout of oil on top of the piston, appox 1-2 inches. Walk away for a few hours/overnight.

When you come back, look at the level of the oil, if all is even still on top of the engine, the rings should be fine.
But if one or 2 pistons have way less oil on top, I would suspect bad rings in those cylinders.

my friend bought the valves brand new and ended up just getting a new head instead of installing them

what do you mean by (Pull the cams out of the head, then pour fluid in the runner) what is the runner??

ill try that putting oil in my cylinders tonight and see if they leak

im not sure how it was sufaced the head had a slight warp and the fixed it

my mechinest also from napa said that the valves should be seating fine he checked a few but not all



i just put a head that has two bent valves in #4 and #3 off my 1g on it and did a compession test in the #1. 75psi and #2 cylinder 80psi with the other head it was #1 35psi #2 60psi i dont know if that means anything i just figured i would try and see if i got different resaults before proceeding


i also noticed that with the 1g head on the car and timed with the spark plugs out it has alot of spring when turning with a wrench from the crank

on my other head it had none ..... i had the spark plugs in dont know if that makes a diffrence tho


im gonna go check the things you listed and ill keep it updated

 

[nickk90]

Try a leak down test

 

[diamondsm]

doesn't matter if it's even across the board. those numbers are extremely low and why beyond the service limit. you have had your head off 3 times now, unless you missed something blatantly obvious, its not your problem.

your more then likely looking at a rebuild, or swapping in a good motor. this is why you always tow a vehicle with a known blown HG. or avoid buying them altogether unless your prepared to rebuild the motor.

*edit*

by the way, here are the compression stats for the 2G turbo motor, in case you didn't know them.

2G (95-99) T/E 2.0L 4G63 Turbo engine
Compression ratio 8.5:1
Standard compression 178 psi
Service limit 133 psi

*edit 2*

i am curious though, if you've supposedly had your timing right every time, why were your first compression test numbers, and your last so different?

i didnt touch the timing for all of the first 4 compression tests
the only extra varible i did during the tests was add oil to the cylinders witch changed my resaults and indicates the rings need serviced but that does not explain why they are so low i have search and searched and the only posts i can find were they had compression this low was caused by hydrolocked lifters causing the valves not to seat but mine are new

the second time i did the test i put new lifters and re timed it and the resaults were close to the same the only difference was in the number 3 cylinder

i have a fully rebuilt block from a 1g that i will swap in if need be but i really dont think its rings i think it has to be somthing with the head

Try a leak down test

i dont have the tools for a leak down test

 

[Anubis_4_99]

the only extra varible i did during the tests was add oil to the cylinders witch changed my resaults and indicates the rings need serviced but that does not explain why they are so low

i have a fully rebuilt block from a 1g that i will swap in if need be but i really dont think its rings i think it has to be somthing with the head

well you seem to have it under control then good luck.

 

[Tyeler18]

Sounds about like when we messed the timing up on my friends talon. How many teeth do you have between the gears? Line the timing marks up and start on the 9 o'clock timing mark on the EXHAUST cam and count BELT teeth all the way over the top to the 3 o'clock mark on the INTAKE cam gear, report back how many teeth there are between the marks.

 

[diamondsm]

Sounds about like when we messed the timing up on my friends talon. How many teeth do you have between the gears? Line the timing marks up and start on the 9 o'clock timing mark on the EXHAUST cam and count BELT teeth all the way over the top to the 3 o'clock mark on the INTAKE cam gear, report back how many teeth there are between the marks.

i have the head off again, what will doing this tell me?? can i do this with the head off??

He has had it pressure tested.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...how-aluminum-head-pressure-tested-cracks.html




I would rotate the engine over so all 4 pistons are at mid stroke, then pour even amout of oil on top of the piston, appox 1-2 inches. Walk away for a few hours/overnight.

When you come back, look at the level of the oil, if all is even still on top of the engine, the rings should be fine.
But if one or 2 pistons have way less oil on top, I would suspect bad rings in those cylinders.

i am attempting this tonight, i am also doing the same thing to a freshly rebluilt block to compare how much should leak i will update in the morning




its been a few hours sence i started the test and the #4 cylinder has already leaked more then half out & #3 & #4 have leaked a little #1 is good, as for the rebuilt block none of the cylinders leaked.

thank you for this test it was very helpfull

in the morning i am going to pull the block and start putting together a new engine.....


the rebuilt block i have is a 1g n/a 7 bolt built with 2g piston's 1g rod's and a .50 bore over...i know the block was a non turbo but i used all new turbo internal's

so i have some new questions

my tsi has a crank angle sensor and a plug coming out of the block and my 1g block does not, what do i do about that??

what is the plug coming out of the back of the block??

i noticed the motor mounts were different will the ones from the tsi bolt strat up to the 1g block?

the 1g block was out of a manual fwd will everything on the tsi swap over to it, its an awd automatic but you cant beat 500 bucks ha


is there anything else im missing??

 

[BogusSVO]

The runners are what the intake and exhaust manifolds bolt up to on the sides of the head.
When you look down the runner, you will see the valve stem, and the back if the valve.


Glad you found the issue!

 

[kchaazz]

i have the head off again, what will doing this tell me?? can i do this with the head off??




i am attempting this tonight, i am also doing the same thing to a freshly rebluilt block to compare how much should leak i will update in the morning




its been a few hours sence i started the test and the #4 cylinder has already leaked more then half out & #3 & #4 have leaked a little #1 is good, as for the rebuilt block none of the cylinders leaked.

thank you for this test it was very helpfull

in the morning i am going to pull the block and start putting together a new engine.....


the rebuilt block i have is a 1g n/a 7 bolt built with 2g piston's 1g rod's and a .50 bore over...i know the block was a non turbo but i used all new turbo internal's

so i have some new questions

my tsi has a crank angle sensor and a plug coming out of the block and my 1g block does not, what do i do about that??

what is the plug coming out of the back of the block??

i noticed the motor mounts were different will the ones from the tsi bolt strat up to the 1g block?

the 1g block was out of a manual fwd will everything on the tsi swap over to it, its an awd automatic but you cant beat 500 bucks ha


is there anything else im missing??

Regarding the crank angle sensor, I am not sure the 1G 7 bolt block has accomodations for this. If this is the case, you may have to do what the six bolt swap guys do, which is abandon that sensor and use a 1G CAS along with a harness that plugs into the cas on one end, and the crank angle sensor plug on the other- this can be purchased from Roadraceengineering.com, though I do believe better solutions have been developed over the years. Search the forum under Six Bolt Swap to find info in the event that the 2G crank angle sensor cannot be used on the 1G 7 bolt.

I do believe that the "plug" on the back of the block in which you are describing is the knock sensor. This WILL have to be exchanged for the 2G knock sensor as the 1G sensor is not compatible with the 2G ECU.

The 2G motor mounts will bolt onto the 1G block.

 

[diamondsm]

Regarding the crank angle sensor, I am not sure the 1G 7 bolt block has accomodations for this. If this is the case, you may have to do what the six bolt swap guys do, which is abandon that sensor and use a 1G CAS along with a harness that plugs into the cas on one end, and the crank angle sensor plug on the other- this can be purchased from Roadraceengineering.com, though I do believe better solutions have been developed over the years. Search the forum under Six Bolt Swap to find info in the event that the 2G crank angle sensor cannot be used on the 1G 7 bolt.

I do believe that the "plug" on the back of the block in which you are describing is the knock sensor. This WILL have to be exchanged for the 2G knock sensor as the 1G sensor is not compatible with the 2G ECU.

The 2G motor mounts will bolt onto the 1G block.

would all of that be expensive?? im working on a budget would it be cheeper to just replace the rings? i have never done it with the engine in the car would it be easier to do it with the block in or out of the car?

Regarding the crank angle sensor, I am not sure the 1G 7 bolt block has accomodations for this. If this is the case, you may have to do what the six bolt swap guys do, which is abandon that sensor and use a 1G CAS along with a harness that plugs into the cas on one end, and the crank angle sensor plug on the other- this can be purchased from Roadraceengineering.com, though I do believe better solutions have been developed over the years. Search the forum under Six Bolt Swap to find info in the event that the 2G crank angle sensor cannot be used on the 1G 7 bolt.

I do believe that the "plug" on the back of the block in which you are describing is the knock sensor. This WILL have to be exchanged for the 2G knock sensor as the 1G sensor is not compatible with the 2G ECU.

The 2G motor mounts will bolt onto the 1G block.

my 1g block does not have the sensor in the back of the block but it looks like the sensor from my tsi will swap over to my 1g block??

 

[BogusSVO]

The cost will depend on what all you need to rebuild the old engine, and what the part list is needed for the new engine

Read thu this thread
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bol...front-cover-6-bolt-2g-crank-angle-sensor.html

This should cover the oil pump/crank angle sensor you need.

 

[kchaazz]

The 2G knock sensor will go right into the hole for the 1G sensor

I am not sure about the price of the harness for the 6bolt swap regarding price. Perhaps someone with a 6bolt swap can chime in on this one?? Maybe the 2G crank angle sensor will bolt onto the 1G 7bolt?? I will do a bit of research and get back to you on this. Personally, if I were to swap motors, Id just go with a 6bolt if the crank angle sensor cant be used with the 1G 7bolt. One possible solution would be to utilize your 2G head on the 1G 7bolt, and use the oil pump from the 2G block, thereby allowing the use of the crank angle sensor. I am however, reasonably sure that you can use the trigger plate and sensor on the 1G 7bolt engine because even the 1G 7bolt appears to have space for the trigger plate- this is the bottom of the oil pan, behind the harmonic balancer where the oil pan of the 7 bolt motors curves downward, as opposed to being flat on the 6bolt motors. The only thing I can tell you right now is to take the crank angle sensor and trigger plate off the 2G and try and bolt it onto the 1G motor. In either case, you will have to use your 2G head because of the cam gear on the intake side of the 2G which, if you notice, is "solid" instead of "spoked" and is an integral part of the crank angle sensor.

The cost will depend on what all you need to rebuild the old engine, and what the part list is needed for the new engine

Read thu this thread
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bol...front-cover-6-bolt-2g-crank-angle-sensor.html

This should cover the oil pump/crank angle sensor you need.

While that^^ is far superior to using the 1G cas in a six bolt swap,
hes already got a 1G 7bolt as a spare, we just need to confirm whether or not the trigger plate can be used on the 1G 7bolt oil pump or not
Do you have any seven bolt blocks at the shop to check this for him?? Rick and I got rid of all the 7bolt stuff at our house so I cant check...

 

[diamondsm]

k so i forgot about this detal with my 1g block when i got it the guy said it was out of a 93 eclipse gs but thats what the guy he got it from told him so i dont know what year it really is from



i just went and looked at both of the front casing's and i think they're the same, the timing marks look right too the only thing i noticed is no crank sensor and there is a plate around the crank but its not the same as the plate on the tsi
will my oil pan off the tsi fit on the other? im guessing its flat to fit under the thing coming off the trans....what is that thing called?? can i take just that off?


i have the car torn down to the block and trany, i looked the under to see what i would have to do to replace the just the rings with block still in the car and noticed some thing blocking me from taking off the oil pan what is that and can it be removed with out taking out the trans?

do i need to get new rod bearings or can i re-use the old ones??

im thinking it will be far less work and money to just do the rings in the car but is that a good idea?

 

[kchaazz]

k so i forgot about this detal with my 1g block when i got it the guy said it was out of a 93 eclipse gs but thats what the guy he got it from told him so i dont know what year it really is from



i just went and looked at both of the front casing's and i think they're the same, the timing marks look right too the only thing i noticed is no crank sensor and there is a plate around the crank but its not the same as the plate on the tsi
will my oil pan off the tsi fit on the other? im guessing its flat to fit under the thing coming off the trans....what is that thing called?? can i take just that off?


i have the car torn down to the block and trany, i looked the under to see what i would have to do to replace the just the rings with block still in the car and noticed some thing blocking me from taking off the oil pan what is that and can it be removed with out taking out the trans?

do i need to get new rod bearings or can i re-use the old ones??

im thinking it will be far less work and money to just do the rings in the car but is that a good idea?

Just swap the trigger plate from the TSI and see if it fits. If its a 7bolt, the pans will interchange

 

[bryanwheat]

1g and 2g 7 bolts have the spot to mount the crank sensor. You just need the trigger plate from the 2g engine on there.

 

[diamondsm]

1g and 2g 7 bolts have the spot to mount the crank sensor. You just need the trigger plate from the 2g engine on there.

anyone got a trick for the crank nut?? ive only done it with an inpact gun and i dont have one anymore

 

[kchaazz]

Ive never removed the crank bolt on a motor out of the car without an impact myself. You can bolt on a flywheel and then try a small jackhandle placed between the flywheel steps where the pp bolts to the flywheel and turn the flywheel so that the end of the jackhandle is touching the ground to prevent the crankshaft from moving and use a 1/2" breaker bar on the crank bolt. Make sense?

 

[diamondsm]

there is no way im getting the crank bolt out wuth out an impact gun or removing the engine so does anyone know were to get a crank angle sensor, trigger plate?? i looked at autozone and napa but could not find one

 

[kchaazz]

there is no way im getting the crank bolt out wuth out an impact gun or removing the engine so does anyone know were to get a crank angle sensor, trigger plate?? i looked at autozone and napa but could not find one

Try DSMGRAVEYARD.COM. Theyve got dozens of donor cars and good prices