Long Question About Interference And Timing

[NATAS]

Hello everyone,

This is going to be a really long post; my apologies ahead of time. I hate typing and am really only doing this because I need a little help. I know I have options, but I just wanted to get this one question answered before I decide which way to proceed on this engine.

I have been searching for 3 days and haven't found a definitive answer to my issue. I've read just about every "Help my timing belt broke" and "bent valves?" thread there is to find in DSM land. Still, I can't find my answer. Also, I am aware this is a thread for questions that aren't noobish, so please, my topic may seem juvenile, but please rest assured it's not a question that's been answered a million times before. If mods think it should be moved to the newbie section; I understand, but also I do believe that talking about this area of the engine can add some useful tech info, while not new, could at least be consolidated a bit in this thread

Ok so here is the deal. I bought a 2Ga Talon TSi that was leaking oil; supposedly from the main seal. I found the leak to be from the oil filter housing (or bracket as I sometimes here them referred to). Somebody had installed a stainless oil feedline and tightened the "idiot light sender" too tight and it cracked the housing.

As I'm sure anyone reading this forum already knows; DSM engineers in all their masterful wisdom decided to make 3 easy as pie bolts to attach the housing to the block, and then out of pure sadism; tucked the fourth bolt up under the timing cover. This of course requires removal of the crank pulley.

So I've been doing Honduh stuff (hey don't hate; cylinder head efficiency is wonderful for boost) for a couple years, and just grabbed this DSM on a whim. I've owned a few 1g's and one other 2g, and built the engines in 2 of them and can't believe that I did what you're just about to read. Keep in mind; this all started from one single bolt; the fourth one on the oil filter housing that is under the timing cover. One bolt!

Here is where I'm wondering if I made a grave mistake. So, I get it all set-up and see that the crank pulley has a 1/2" slot for a ratchet in it. In a Honda, this is how you remove it. What I forgot is that in a DSM; that's what you use to brace the pulley while you pop out the 4 little bolts that actually hold it on. So I went up and rigged upstairs in the engine bay so it wouldn't turn, and gave that 1/2" slot hell. I couldn't bust it loose for the life of me ( in retrospect). So finally I gave it a full power yank and it kicked over like the socket I'd rigged above was moving.

Then it dawned on me that I'm an idiot. I couldn't believe that I couldn't see that the 4 bolts hold the pulley on. IDK how I missed that and went after the 1/2" slot instead, but I did. I'm almost 30 years old and consider myself a savvy mechanic (after tonight I'm not as sure though) as far as the shade tree variety is concerned, but somehow this time I made the same mistake a first time dsm noob would make. So I stopped reefing on that 1/2" slot as soon as I realized what I was doing/had done, and popped off those 4 little bolts and the crank pulley just fell right off. So I laugh it off, finish the install of the new oil filter housing; wrap it all up and prepare for the start-up.

It didn't fire. It backfired once and that was it. My heart sank. I realized that I'd probably messed the timing all up by reefing on that crank pulley in the forbidden counter-clockwise direction, and that now I'm going to have to re-time it at the very least, but more than likely the valves met the pistons. Again, these mistakes I made I freely admit where ridiculous, on the level of tinker toys, and I really am ashamed, but I do feel my post belongs in this section. The mistakes were beginner type that I attribute to switching from Honda to DSM, but the question I have, IMHO, can be considered advanced.

So here's the results. I checked the timing and it was off a good 15 degrees up top. The crank sprocket and oil pump sprocket both lined up to their respective marks, but my cams not at all. I compression tested it. Zero's across the board. So I'm thinking bent valves all the way. I mean has anyone even seen zero compression on an interference engine and it not been bent valves?

So now that I've written a novel; here is the question I have. How far off does your timing have to be before it's guaranteed that your valves are bent? All I did was crank it over when the timing was off; it didn't fire and I instantly realized what I had done. My fear is that the sound I thought was the ratchet slipping was actually me jumping timing up top. I still can't believe I tried to remove a DSM crank pulley like a Honda's. I also can't believe that I didn't re-check the timing before I tried to fire. Basically I had a really sloppy night, and my re-introduction to DSM's is going about how I remember leaving them haha. I talked to a couple techs I know, and they said if my timing wasn't too far off I may be alright. Trust me; I'm not grasping at straws here. I have no problem repairing an engine, or accepting the fact that my noobish actions may have cost me my valvetrain, but I'd really like to hear some second and twentieth opinions on this subject.

Right now I'm halfway through timing it and have stopped because I really don't want to put it back together and just do more damage. Even though it never ran while the timing was off; I don't see it being too hard to fathom that I still could have bent valves. The zero compression just about seals the deal for me, but I also looked at the tops of the pistons through the spark plug holes and didn't see a thing. No sign of contact in any hole. I was using a pencil to find TDC and it left a little mark in the soot on cylinder #1, so I can only deduce that if a little pencil can leave a mark; wouldn't some valves hitting the piston leave a mark as well? I understand that I can only see a small portion of the piston through the hole, so maybe the points of contact with the valves are further back, but it still gives me a little hope.

So what to you guys think. 100% bent valves on this one because of zero compression, or could there be any chance that an interference engine can still have zero compression because the timing is way off, but not enough to have piston to valve contact. I really couldn't find the answer. I was trying to see how far off our timing can be before hitting valves, but no concrete answers yet. I have the timing belt loose right now and really want to know if I should just re-time it and start it up, or should I just accept the fact there is a zero percent chance the valves didn't hit the pistons?

I have a fresh 6 bolt I saved from my previous DSM days, so maybe it's time to install that now, but I'm not trying to go high performance with this Talon. If I can get away with just re-timing it rather than doing an engine swap; I'd like to. Believe it or not; I'm trying to make it a daily driver . Again, sorry for the length of this post, but I wanted to be as descriptive and accurate as I could so you guys can see what I'm talking about. Thank-you in advance for anyone who offers their wisdom or opinions.

 

[nuclearr]

Okay fist off did you do your compression test with it out of time? If you did you need to time it correctly (I would not put the covers and pulleys and belts back on). Then redo the compression test and see what your results are.

How many teeth did you jump?

 

[NATAS]

Also, my engine isn't turning over like an engine with no compression even though the test yielded poor results. On previous engines that have bent valves; the engine turned over extremely fast. Mine is cranking absolutely the same as usual. I have a hard time believing that I would get a zero compression reading if the upstairs timing was off, but maybe it could I suppose. If my valve(s) are opening on the compression stroke, but not enough to hit my pistons then I can see how I'd get zero compression. I just think there would be SOME compression. When I cranked the car; the timing belt was tight, but I only made sure the downstairs timing was set. After it wouldn't start I immediately saw the cam timing off.

I'm just hoping to get a confirmation that it is possible to get a zero compression reading from the timing being off, and that it's not a 100% guarantee that valves are bent.

I'm not set-up to do a leakdown test right now, as the car isn't at my usual shop. I guess right now I'm going to reset the timing, triple check everything, and then try to fire or at least see some compression. I also took the valve cover off and looked for signs of bent valves and the springs/lifters were as they should be. Also, no noise at all coming from the engine bay when I was cranking it, just a backfire on like the 4th crank.

Okay fist off did you do your compression test with it out of time? If you did you need to time it correctly (I would not put the covers and pulleys and belts back on). Then redo the compression test and see what your results are.

How many teeth did you jump?

Hey thanks for the reply man. I appreciate it. I did the compression check right after it wouldn't fire, so yes, it was done with the timing off. That's why I was asking this question. After I noticed the cam timing off (I don't know exactly how many teeth, but I imagine plenty as I was moronically wrenching the crankshaft pulley counterclockwise like one removes a Honda pulley); I loosened the timing belt and the camshaft sprockets turned by themselves. I had cylinder #1 at TDC when I relieved the tension on the pulley. The intake cam spun freely, but I turned the exhaust sprocket and felt it touch against something which I can only assume would be the valves. This gave me hope because when it was out of time; the exhaust cam sprocket was farther the other way (clockwise; it shifted counter clockwise as soon as I loosened the t-belt).

Yeah I was planning on timing it tomorrow and then doing a compression test before buttoning the pulleys and belts up just to see if I get a compression reading. I guess it's the next logical step.

I may have dodged a bullet here, but I'm not betting on it.

 

[2qik4u]

i doubt you have bent valves at all! your timing has to be pretty far out when for you to bend valves. I would retime it and see what happens!! also if the timing was off you wouldnt really be able to know where your valves ere in their cycle so yes you could get a 0 reading with a compression test cause the valves were probably open. retime it and start the motor!!!

ps. next time dont admit to being so experianced. just play dummy and shorten your post like you dont know what you are talking about and you will probably get like 30 replies right away!!! !!!

 

[Killa_dsm]

It sounds like you jumped quite a bit of teeth, so I would assume that you've bent your valves. If I were you, I would just re-time it since it doesn't take long and redo the compression test to see what you get.

Good luck and lets hope you didn't bend any valves.

 

[NATAS]

It sounds like you jumped quite a bit of teeth, so I would assume that you've bent your valves. If I were you, I would just re-time it since it doesn't take long and redo the compression test to see what you get.

Good luck and lets hope you didn't bend any valves.

Yeah that's definitely first on the menu for tomorrow. So one guy says no and one guy says yes haha. I guess it really comes down to if I was a massive idiot or an incredibly massive idiot. 2qik4u makes a good point. So I am definitely convinced (now 4:57am here and been searching DSM land for 6hrs) that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that if I did the compression test with the timing off; of course it would be low; if not zero.

So it's not a 100% I bent my valves. From what I've seen and what I've gathered; it's usually when the t-belt breaks that the valves say hello to the pistons without a doubt. I didn't even fire the engine; however just cranking it over without starting still could have bent valves I'd imagine. After I loosened the belt; I set the cams exactly on, and it wasn't that far off. I guess it comes down to how far off I was, and how lucky I'm going to be later in the day. I need to sleep, but I'll definitely post back with findings. Thank-you guys for your replies. I feel slightly hopeful, but I've learned to always expect the worst from a DSM.

 

[96mitsugsx]

You should have re-timed it in the first place when you first noticed that the timing was off. Being said that you were/are a honda guy, Honda engines are also interference motors.

 

[BogusSVO]

well there are a few other factors that would come into play

depending on how you were holding the cam(s) you may have skipped on one cam or both.

the amout of teeth you skipped, you said about 15*, that would be about 2 teeth I would have to say.
with that in mind, you may have just nipped the valves, and just bent them a little (but bent is bent)

also, it would be helpfull to know if you have stock cams or aftermarket, and what the head thickness is. along with what HG thickness you have.
All this has to be taken into account when trying to figure what the valve to piston clearance is.

 

[NATAS]

You should have re-timed it in the first place when you first noticed that the timing was off. Being said that you were/are a honda guy, Honda engines are also interference motors.

You're absolutely correct. As stated; I had a very sloppy evening last night. It didn't even cross my mind that the timing could be off until I went to fire it. I should have timed it BEFORE even trying to fire it since it would have been common sense after I realized I was cranking the pulley counterclockwise. I should have checked timing right then and there. Trust me, I realize what a tard move I've made.

well there are a few other factors that would come into play

depending on how you were holding the cam(s) you may have skipped on one cam or both.

the amout of teeth you skipped, you said about 15*, that would be about 2 teeth I would have to say.
with that in mind, you may have just nipped the valves, and just bent them a little (but bent is bent)

also, it would be helpfull to know if you have stock cams or aftermarket, and what the head thickness is. along with what HG thickness you have.
All this has to be taken into account when trying to figure what the valve to piston clearance is.

It looks like it was both cams that slipped. When I set the #1 piston to TDC and removed tension on the t-belt; both cam gears rotated by themselves. I'd say at least 2 teeth. Possibly more. And you're right, bent is bent.

The car is completely stock except when I bought the car the t2small was smoking so I put a 14b on. It has 102k original and no signs of CW. It is running stock pressure with the BCS still installed. I'm just trying to keep it as OE as possible. I bought it on the premise that I wasn't going to throw $ at it like a project. Just get it 100% and daily drive it ~30 miles a day.

I'm heading over there in about 7 hours to pull an all nighter if need be, so anymore advice, questions, comments, put-downs are appreciated .

I guess there really is only one thing to do. Set timing; test compression, then either button it up and count my blessings, or begin removing the engine. I think SVO is probably correct though. This probably isn't the worst timing failure to happen, but the chances I didn't bend at least a pair of valves, even a tiny amount; are very low. 6 bolt swap time most likely. There goes my virgin wiring harness

 

[nuclearr]

What are the results of your re-time and compression test? Also you do not have to cut up your harness for a 6 bolt swap there is at least one vendor who sells an adapter harness.

 

[NATAS]

I had The Guardian Angel of Backyard Mechanics looking over me. After wrenching on the crank pulley counterclockwise like Sloth on some blue methamphetamine trying to bust it free; I thought I was surely hosed until I set the #1 piston at DTC, loosened the tensioner pulley and saw the cam sprockets (or sprocket; I was really only watching the exhaust sprocket) rotate by themselves FARTHER than I had jumped it initially. I felt resistance almost instantly when I rotated the exhaust camshaft counter clockwise (timing belt off this time and just by hand softly rofl), and I admit I did feel hope that the piston to valve clearance wasn't breached enough by my absurd first attempt at removing the pulley. That's why I even asked this question. I thought it impossible that I hadn't at least nicked a pair, but after I felt the valves butt up to the pistons when turning it by hand; I thought there was a chance.

Compression is good! Not perfect, but still a bit higher than a perfect 6 bolt, and only 4psi difference. Dry test as well, so I'm satisfied. I buttoned everything back up with the timing set properly and the engine runs same as before. Now it doesn't piss oil out of a cracked oil filter housing when there's oil psi either. I was cool with however this turned out because obviously a 6 bolt is more desirable (so they're making plug and play jumpers for the 6 bolt swap now huh; didn't even know), but since there is no damage; the 7 bolt stays. I've had good luck with 7 bolts believe it or not, and actually prefer the 2G head (intake bits, except MAF, not included) over the 6 bolt.

So yeah, 14b on a 7 bolt for this car. Everything else is great and I couldn't be happier/luckier. To help its fat ass along I removed the BCS in favor of a decent manual controller, monitored it on a few pulls (using probably the first OBDII Pocketlogger software I saved from oh so long ago+a borrowed WBO2 haha), and have it at a perfect commuting pressure of 14psi and the AFR's well within acceptable. It spools the 14b noticeably quicker than some of the tired 1G examples I've driven, but it's not going to frighten exotics, or even semi-exotics, but it will smoke your mom's Buick . I made some 2.5" hard smic piping from extra 16g alum I had around too since I can't stand to hear it wheeze through that tiny sidemount with plastic pipes and a 2G TB circumference that is almost as small as an HF CRX . I had an EVO9 metal bypass valve on my shelf, so that replaced my guaranteed to be leaking OEM plastic unit that this POS came with. Stock exhaust haha. Stock wheels. Stock, but new struts, hell even stock stereo and floormats. Zero ricing or dress-up so help me God. Oh I did opt for a Hyundai VC I found kicking around. Somewhere I thought I heard they were more structurally sound. Probably B.S. but I couldn't pass it up because of the WTF effect, and I found the original gasket leaking in the same place they always do (damn those little pac mans!).

That's it for this DSM. I already promised myself I wasn't putting any $ into it. Stuff lying around is fair game, but I'm not buying anything except oil, filters, plugs, and gasoline like any other good commuter car should require. If I become momentarily retarded again and break something; then 6 bolt and big snail etc. I'll keep a close eye on everything and DO MY RESEARCH BEFORE TOUCHING MY CAR again because obviously there is such a thing as ring rust when it comes to fighting with a DSM.

Thanks to anyone who offered their advice, experience, or reinforced the fact that this problem shouldn't have happened at all. See you all again down the road (or on the side ahaha). -Natas

 

[Killa_dsm]

I am glad to hear no damage was done. You lucked out this time, but it was probably a good reminder telling you to fresh'n up your dsm knowledge. But we all have those scares, when we do something and not pay close attention to what we're doing. I think I know I have a couple times.

 

[2qik4u]

good to hear that your valves arent going to the grave yard!! and yes we all make mistakes from time to time. my latest was letting my turbo oil return line get kinked causeing my car to turn into a smoke machine. (would have been cool if i had a strobe light. ) massive amounts of smoke!!! thought my motor had turned upsid down on me it was so bad. but live and learn!!!