knocking issue regardless of timing

[ThetanuRucka]

i just picked up this 2nd gen from a friend. its got v3 in it. rebuilt 4g63 1g head 2g ported manifold and 20g turbo. FMIC blah blah. 880cc injectors.200whp
i took it out last night and thought i had it tuned pretty well. 11.3 afrs at like 16-17psi. i was happy with that for day one of owning the car.
well weird stuff started to happen. drove it to a friend house. 360whp GTO owner and and 300whp Mustang owner. they wanted to see it run so whatver, i turned it up a half turn. got on it, 2nd gear the car felt good but was slightly lean for me 12.0-12.2. so i got out of it. and did a third gear pull. afrs went to 13 and i got some knock. backed out. turned the boost back down. and went for a ride. 9.0s in boost.... and the occasional knock on the long third pull. and the car felt like it was just loading up on fuel, just that dead feeling on accelleration?... well we were leaving so i said **** it and just left. got on the high way and made a pull on the on ramp. 10.0 afr now.... betterr but...
drove about 20 miles and made another pull. 13.5 afrs no knock.
20 miles later 10.0 afrs slight knock. (didnt have my comp with me this whole time).

2nd gear on 16-17 psi with a 12g on street tires should light up or at least bark. . nothing. just that ****ty dead feeling. car just didnt feel right. so today i got my comp, did some logging at the end i ended up pulling 8 degrees of timing and the knockret stayed the same.also one of them shows me spiking to 19. and holding 14ish. (est. boost).
all afrs on this were more like high 10s. 2nd gear was lower 10s.

any help much appreciated. i just made the switch from hondas and hondata/neptune MAP tuning and will be switch to SD shortly but for now. MAF tuning will be okay.

all this done on shell 93.
2000 mile motor.

 

[gofer]

Sounds like you've jumped head first into tuning with ECMLink without knowing anything about the program, you need to start from square one to get that car tuned correctly.

Watch these two videos. ---> ECMLink: Initial Setup & ECMLink: Fuel Trims

Heres a link to all the other demo videos, the two above you'll probably find the most useful. ECMLink Demo Videos

Then read through the ECMLink Wiki, any question you have after watching the videos will more than likely be answered reading through the Wiki articles.

Now onto your logs and settings, I'm going to start from the top of your settings tabs and work my way down.
RPM/TPS - Your idle switch isn't working in your logs, no worries this is pretty common problem, but to fix it you need to select the "Enable idle switch from TPS" box.
Fuel - Zero your fuel sliders. The injector settings you have need slight changes too, just so they make sense for your setup. Click the "Calculate..." tab and enter 880's, 43.5psi (its at 37psi at the moment which is base fuel pressure on a 1g, a 2g its 43.5), then click calculate and you should get a global setting of -49.2%. For deadtime adjustments you'll have to watch those deadtime videos...
Timing - ZERO your timing sliders.
MAFComp - ZERO your MAF Hz sliders and use those videos I linked to so you can make the CORRECT adjustments to them, you'll have to watch those videos closely to do it right.
Speed Density - Good
NBO2 Sim - Good
ALS/Knock - Go into the knock sensor control settings and change them to 3.5k and 30%.
Dash - Good
Misc - What CAS are you running on that 2g?
DTC's - Good
ECU Inputs - Good

Before we go any further I wanted to ask, how does including any of those street racing stories help us tune your car? Keep them out of your posts because for one it isn't necessary and secondly, and more importantly, its against our sites rules.

 

[ThetanuRucka]

i did honestly jump into this. basically the guy was selling a car that needed to be tuned. i tuned it enough to run and then came here. MAF is a whole different world for me. so..
as for the cas. it is a 1G head and the guy that built the car (whose tuned with dsmlink before) had the non 95/96 CAS checked so i assume its an older CAS.

as for the injectors. the owner said they were 880s. after further looking. they are injector clinic 850s. so the global is only off .01 and the deadtime is whats suggested i believe.

knock sensor:done
idle switch:done


as for the street racing..... i just wanted to give a lame excuse as to why i turned it up .
and the civic was a comparison of how slow i was actually running on 18psi. didnt mean to actually be all like ooh im street racing.
ive been reading the wiki and a ton of links, etc. and ill watch the video and do the maf hz thing. this is just a different ballgame from my honda tuning. where i could just say. injector compensation and then i have timing and fuel maps wheres its rpm vs load. the whole HZ thing is a confusing concept but bear with me im sure it will only last a day or two..

my biggest concern was the the PO had wired/messed something up. because at the smae boost level on the same drive it would run a 9.0 afr. and then a 13.5 afr. and it would knock and then wouldnt knock.

 

[gofer]

Sounds good then. Just remember the crawl/walk/run rule, don't go WOT running 20psi when the car isn't even tuned correctly for idle with those injectors and MAF settings. This is another great tool if you're trying to tune the car using the MAF at WOT, ECMLink only shows the idle and cruise tuning. ---> JeffGST: DSMlink MAS/MAF Calibration

If its got a 1g style CAS on it then keep that box checked in the Misc. tab.

Once you get the idle tuned, following the demo videos, post a log of the car idling with 180*+ coolant temps for a few minutes.

 

[ThetanuRucka]

ohkay. watched the videos. followed the advice best i could. this is what i got.

btw car feels great and very little to knocking .

the car is pulling TONS harder then it did on the shitty tuning 18psi. and im only on like 11-13 psi...

the afrs were all nice right around the low 11s.

i pretty much just zerod all my sliders. and adjusted the deadtime. and got it to be where it is.

i have a 2nd-3rd gear pull from i think 3500+
and 2 seperate pulls in one log.
and then an idle.

oh man. i didnt see your thing about a few minutes. i just did like 10 seconds of idling .

thanks a bunch. its good to get constructive feedback .

 

[gofer]

Since you aren't logging your WB or boost its hard for me to tune things any further for you. Just read through that link I posted to JeffGST.com on WOT MAF tuning, that's going to be the most helpful to you now.

The only thing else I see that still needs adjustment is your TPS, use this. ---> ECMLink Wiki: TPS Adjustment

I've also attached a set of fuel/timing tables that are a good base to start tuning from on pump gas, feel free to use them if you'd like.

 

[98zx23369]

why dont you cruise tune before WOT, theres a peak of 7000 rpm on that log

 

[gofer]

...theres a peak of 7000 rpm on that log

What are you talking about?

 

[ThetanuRucka]

cruise.... it cruises at like 14.7-15.5 . with no hiccups. i feel like its good enough .

on second note.

earlier when i made the pulls. my car was running 11.2 +-.3 AFRs.

i just took it out. didnt change a thing. and the car is pulling 9.5 afrs.... is there some kind of ECU compensation that it learns over time?...

the way i look at it. if i tune the car at a certain temperature, then when im at that same temperature, and no adjustments have been made. it should be the same afr...

is there some thing i dont know about (im sure there is )....

my coolant temp adjust is zerod by the time i warm up,

is it adjusting fuel trims without me knowing?

 

[gofer]

The AFR should be the same whether the temperature changes or not, the ECU also gets intake temp info and baro from the MAF and takes them both into account when shooting for a specific AFR.

When your ECU goes into open loop it stops looking at the front o2 sensor for fuel trim info and resorts to pulling the info from those direct access open loop max octane maps for AFR's. The stock ECU OL map has a target AFR of 9.5 ~ 9.6:1, which is what its going to shoot for unless you change the OL map (which is what I included in a few posts above in that attachment).

The reason why you saw 11.1:1 AFR's one pull, then 9.6:1 AFR's in the next, can be cause for a few reasons. My guess is the lack of tuning in your MAFComp sliders in the higher Hz ranges, which is why I linked you to JeffGST's webpage showing you exactly how to do it. If you don't tune those sliders then the ECU gets a false airflow reading from the MAF, thus creating the rich or lean condition that you're seeing on the WB.

What intercooler setup do you have on that car? It wouldn't hurt to update your profile information so we can see all the mods that are done to your car, thats why its there.

 

[ThetanuRucka]

ohhh. i think thats where ive been getting stumped... you see. im used to. if i input a fuel value. it put that much fuel in open loop regardless. and i thought thats what the sliders were specifically for. but. that aiming for AF values are what it will try and get...
i guess it just takes some messing with things to get things to work..,

Apexi FMIC

 

[98zx23369]

I was talking about tananurukas second data log, at one point in his log he hit 100% throttle and 7000 rpm, i was suggesting to get the cruise tuning perfect before going WOT, id hate to see anything break

 

[ThetanuRucka]

got a question. a 20g at 20psi should be in what whp ballpark?..

cause we went out tuning a little tonight. getting more used to the program. seeing where everything is. and i turned the boost up a little.
its spiking 22 and holding 18psi (even though the logs say it drops to 11psi the guage shows 18)
my afrs are 11.5s the AFR est is completely off.
i have in the log some of the sliders are moved. i know they shouldnt be but they didnt have any effect on the pulls.
the desired AFRs. are at a spot that put its at 11.5 afr so i have them there.
im flowing 244gm/s max.. 32lbs/min seems kinda low?.... and my 70-90 was 3.5.... feels faster than that. but idk. i wonder if my boost controller is falling off. or if im leaking under boost. because my gm/s stays around 230 and doesnt climb with RPMs....

i understand this a walk/run/crawl. but to me. if im not knocking and im running a good afr... i should be okay. and cruising is all great to me right now.
ill post multiple logs. some had settings changed.

 

[ThetanuRucka]

Also the PO just told me this is a super20g with a 10cm2 housing.

 

[gofer]

If thats the case then its the T3 turbine housing which is considerably larger than the 7cm2 that I assumed it was. I'm not too familiar with 20g T3 setups but the difference in the A/R between the 7cm2 housing and 10cm2 housing will affect turbo lag by a few hundred RPM at best. Granted, the turbo will flow more having the bigger 10cm2 hotside, but unless you plan on pushing that turbo to its limits you won't see the benefits of the bigger housing and still see the slower spool up.

Get that WOT 3rd gear pull from 2.5k - 7k and watch that boost gauge between 5k and 6k RPM.

Does that car have ARP headstuds?

 

[eligst21]

How do you know it is actually hitting 20 psi? Is the gauge in working order. I would trust link on what it is actually running. I would blt it and see if there are any leaks or have you done it?

 

[ThetanuRucka]

No shop air for a.boost leak. I plan. On going 400 on e85. Daily. And yes arp stud 1500 mile.rebuilt OEM motor with acl bearings. I think.is the non OEM bottom end part

Well. Topline. Lol. Not OEM but whatever. Lol

ohkay went out and made a pull. 3rd gear.
4k-7200

3.4 second 70-90...seems slow .

still flowing the same amount of air.

AFRs were a little richer. in the 10s. but not deep.
boost hit 24psi.
and at 7k that boost was 19psi without a doubt my own eyes.

 

[gofer]

Since your modifications list seems half filled out I thought I'd ask just in case, what MAF (1g, 2g, GM) is on the car?

The corrections that need to be made to the MAFComp sliders, paired with the rich AFR's you are describing, show signs of a boost leak. Before you continue beating on your car get a boost leak test done to 35psi and make sure you can pressurize the system.

For now I'm not going to make any changes just yet, at least not until you can verify no boost leaks and you've got a 2g MAF on there.

If you've got no boost leaks and it is a stock MAF on there I'd assume you've got stock cams on your car, which could be killing your airflow along with the 2g IM on the 1g head.

Thought you might find this worth reading too, regarding that 20g setup that car has.

There's nothing "Super" about Hahn turbos. They're nothing more than MHI 16G and 20G turbos in 10cm2 T3 turbine housings that were intended for use on cars with high compression ratios or large displacement. If you use one on a stockish DSM, you'll have all the lag of a big turbo without the top end pull. .

 

[ThetanuRucka]

heres the build from his build thread hang on. ill compile the list.

topline 500+hp kit??
ACL Bearings
ARP Main, Rod Bolts
1g Cams
1g head
Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel
Stock Rebuilt Transmission with 1000miles.
Super 20g
ExtremePSI Jpipe
EGR Block Plate
Emissions, Random Unneeded Sensors Delete
Magnus 2g - 1g adapter harness
Stock 2G MAF.
DSMlink V3
Injector Clinic 850s
Greddy RS BOV
1G Intake Manifold
1G Throttle Body

AEM Wideband
Autometer Boost
3inch exhaust dumped by driver.
bpr7es plugs gapped in mid 20s.

Hahn Racecraft - Turbo Upgrades and Parts

this looks like turbo thats on the car. it has that same welded turn on the compressor outlet.

 

[gofer]

You should wire up that AEM WB and log your AFR's in ECMLink, it would help you (and us) tune the car by just looking at the log. Its one less thing you don't have to worry about watching during a WOT pull, then trying to remember the AFR/RPM to tune it.

1g/2g AEM UEGO Wiring

Like I mentioned, do a boost leak test and make sure you can pressurize it to hold 35psi without pissing air. Once you determine whether or not you have boost leaks then we can tune it properly, don't forget to get a 3-5 minute IDLE log of the car warmed up first.

 

[ThetanuRucka]

does a boost leak, with a bike pump actually work?

 

[gofer]

Absolutely NOT.

Make a BLTer, shown in this video (How To Build A BLTer) and then go to a local gas station's air pump if you don't have access to an air compressor.

I'd just pull up to it, pop the hood, pull the intake off the turbo and install the BLTer then pressurize the system. Listen for anything leaking...

 

[ThetanuRucka]

mkay. ill have to make sure to go reall slow . dont wanna work witha hot turbo .

 

[CanadianTalonTC]

Your better off borrowing a compressor. It gets hot as hell in there after you drive.

Joel

 

[ThetanuRucka]

e70, with a little bit of gas left in it. wideband hooked up. idle.