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Kinugawa Turbo?

Posted by Rolandb246, Jul 6, 2020

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  1. Rolandb246

    Rolandb246 Probationary Member

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  2. ThunderChild

    ThunderChild Supporting VIP

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    I mean, it's probably a good piece, but I can't get the price from the vendor page they have, links broken.

    It should still spool decent, have less backpressure than a td05 bastard 20g, and have more top end.

    Could always go for an FP green or holset or something too, but bolt-on it should function fine.
     

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  3. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    I have used Kinagawa waste gates but never a turbo itself from them.
     

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  4. DSMPT

    DSMPT Proven Member

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    My experience and opinion. I was running this turbo many years ago. Well not exactly the same but technically almost the same. It was many years ago and Kinugawa was still just an eBay shop being impersonating a Japanese turbo shop and didn't sell a complete turbo yet. I got the parts and built it by myself. I was running 11s low to flat with a full weight 1g on cheap street tires. After many passes for a few years, the turbine wheel got broken and destroyed the turbine housing and almost caused car fire, fortunately it didn't go bad though. I mean the turbo was ok while working, but the parts quality was definitely lower than MHI or major turbo brands at least at that time. (I am not sure their recent quality, maybe they have improved the quality) And I think that Kinugawas now charge around $900USD for this turbo. You can actually get a better proven turbo with that money. So I recommend to go with something else with that money. I would consider if the retail price range is $500-$600 or less.
     

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  5. Canadian_CD9A

    Canadian_CD9A Proven Member

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    TD06SL2 turbine wheel in a 7cm housing for a 380hp turbo - it will produce a lot of unnecessary lag and the 20G has never really been impressive. You would be much, much better off buying a 68HTA with TD05H turbine if you could find it. Much more usable power.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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  6. frosh29

    frosh29 Proven Member

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    Or, like said above, a Holset.

    I should change my account name at this point with how often I recommend them.
     

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  7. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Hx35 or 40 :cool: :thumb:
     

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  8. Steve93Talon

    Steve93Talon Proven Member

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    If you're only making 380whp on a 20g you're doing something VERY wrong. A small 16g can do that. And something larger TD05H turbine wheel is needed for a 20g to max out without insane pressure ratios. I've run them with a heavily clipped 05H and an 06H wheel, I'd love to try one in a 6SL2 hotside, it seems very well matched and considering FP uses this turbine for both the HTA68 and Green (same size exducer and inducer as a 20g, respectively), I'd say they agree. Regarding a 20g never really being impressive - it was THE go to turbo for a decade. It helped put DSMs on the map. people ran 10s on them when 10s were considered fast. They make great power and spool well, still one of my favorite bang for the buck street car turbos. I've run 11.0 @ 126+ on one well over a decade ago, stock ECU, VPC, no wideband, stock 7 bolt, stock head/intake.

    As for the Holsets, the shop I used to work at was one of the first to bring them to the DSM market. We ran them on a lot of local cars for years. And most of them in the BEP bolt-on hotsides melted turbine wheels and exploded. The consensus is that diesel EGTs are cooler and the wheel can't take the abuse of the boost we run on these cars to make the power they're capable of. I can't speak to the long term reliability of them when using a T3/4 hotside, I'd imagine it would be much better.

    Bottom line - you gotta pay to play. You can go with a more bang for the buck setup, whether MHI or Holset based, and if you're not pushing it to it's limits it'll probably be fine. But if you want it to last while running 30-40psi, there's much newer tech out there. Take a look at the Garrett G series stuff, FP's Xona, Borg EFR...
     

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  9. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    To this day I've yet to see a HX35 with a broken shaft or separated turbine head....and I've probably serviced 500 of them or more over 17 years.

    I've only seen 2 or 3 HX40's have such an issue in a T3 or larger housing, one of them was being used in a .70 housing on a 2.3L with the wastegate pretty much sealed up so of course...things happen. The vast majority of random HX40 turbine issues I've seen have all been in the .55 housing because the housing a/r is too small for that large of a turbine wheel. This happens on the T350/62mm Precision turbos in DSM housings as well but Holsets are more-common so you hear more about it.

    There's -zero- bypass at the volute nozzle when you shove a wheel that large into a housing that small...so it forces all of the exhaust flow to exit the wheel with each revolution which is a recipe for uncontrollable EGTs and major overspeed at high boost levels. A major factor in killing a large turbine in a small a/r housing is when guys run E85 without knock to 13:1 AFR's with no regard to EGT's. You get similar flow and better reliability from a smaller turbine in a larger a/r housing...a .55 DSM housing was never designed to have a 76/64mm turbine jammed into it.

    The turbine inducer tips should never protrude beyond the machinable "shroud" of the housing...the HX40 turbine in a .55 housing exceeds this by almost 6mm because the housing was never intended to support such a large wheel; it's not necessarily a design flaw, more an improper adaptation. I've been attempting to remedy this for .55 HX40 users lately by cutting back the turbine inducer a couple mm which effectively raises turbine trim calculation and increases bypass around the radius which inherently takes the stress off the turbine itself. The HX40 actually works pretty well in that housing in a controlled environment, but when you want a couple more pounds of manifold pressure or a couple more degrees of timing or a little leaner in the upper RPM range, bad things happen pretty quickly.

    So it's not the fault of the turbo or the brand, it's the housing. ANY brand would have the same issue in a housing that small under these conditions.

    received_10155246679447003.jpeg


    In any instance of documented turbine head/shaft failure from the .55 housing on a HX40, the turbine wheel is typically as white as a ghost....except the only thing scary here is EGT temps prior to failure.

    20181207_135432.jpg
     

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  10. frosh29

    frosh29 Proven Member

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    Jusmx141,

    That’s some good info. I appreciate it.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but you are saying that running a t3 hot side would be better for the longevity of a Holset respectively?

    What are your thoughts about the BEP hot side for an HX35? Is it sufficient? Or does the same case apply as above?
     

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  11. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    That's what I was pointing out in the second paragraph.
    Again, I've never seen a HX35 turbine fail in any housing. I've even seen them take a foreign object strike to the point of having no inducer left and the shaft was still turning under it's own power. That doesn't mean it isn't possible, but when you consider the volume I've handled to have never seen such an example the odds of survival are pretty decent. Only area it lacks is flow...most accurately-logged airflow I've ever seen generated from a DSM-flanged HX35 I've built or serviced was 56 lb/min at 35psi on kill mode, so you're shorting yourself out of about 40-50 horsepower by using DSM-flanged over T3 but that isn't necessarily a bad thing depending how the turbo is being used. In reality the best HX35 is actually a HY35 as it comes from the factory with a single-scroll T3 housing attached and despite having a slightly-smaller turbine wheel it can still handle the full 60-62 lb/min compressor potential and loves lots of boost.
     

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  12. frosh29

    frosh29 Proven Member

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    Thanks for the info. So if I am running an HX35 with the BEP housing, would it make sense to switch to the t3 hotside for a little more power?

    Thanks for the info!

    -Scott
     

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  13. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    It would make even more sense to sell your entire turbo and buy a HY35.
     

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  14. Steve93Talon

    Steve93Talon Proven Member

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    Yes, to clarify, my comments about the failures in the bolt-on housing were specific to the HX40, not the 35.

    I've also seen my share of GT35R turbine wheels melting the tips in the same way in the FP35 housing. Something the new G series turbine wheels seem to have improved finally (not that there are any bolt-on housings for those).
     

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  15. Steve93Talon

    Steve93Talon Proven Member

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  16. frosh29

    frosh29 Proven Member

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    Why? I feel like I should know this, but what’s the improvement over an hx35? Or were you not talking to me?

    Thanks,
    Scott
     

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  17. Sniffbooger

    Sniffbooger Proven Member

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    I've been considering an upgrade to a Holset turbo...is this HY35 a good option because of the 12 blade exhaust wheel and the 7 blade compressor wheel they seem to come with? Does that provide quick spool and good flow? Why not a twin scroll? Just learning more about these. Gonna have to change my entire setup...manifold to T3 flange, downpipe, oil return, etc...
     

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  18. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    - Spool/response is better
    - No need to purchase an adaptive turbine housing or expensive twin-scroll manifold
    - Still enough turbine flow to max out the compressor
     

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  19. jimsgsx

    jimsgsx Proven Member

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    Never really impressive!? You're crazy! Lol.
    20gs are the best street turbo of all time!
    That turbo looks good to me! Downfiring too is a plus!
     

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  20. Rolandb246

    Rolandb246 Probationary Member

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    I personally am on a Td05 20g and in terms of boost performance I NEVER had a complaint....but now that the engine is out of the car I've been thinking of possible upgrades especially with a bit bigger cold side.
     
  21. Eclipse5150x

    Eclipse5150x Proven Member

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    No offense but 20g turbochargers are far from what your saying... "has never really been impressive" Huh? You realize there is like 20 different variations to a 20g right? The 20g turbo is a very good turbo and doesnt have that much lag. Full boost at 3200 rpms depending on your setup. A 20g turbo can and has gone over 380HP easily. Sorry, but the statement just throws me off. They sit down fire like the stock t25, no more stupid "J pipe", appears stock and packs a punch
     

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