Intake manifold design opinions

[junkyarddsm]

Hello I want some opinions on my intake design. I will post a link to the thread I started about information on building your own intake. I did the picture in paint so please forgive the crudeness of the image. The specs of the intake will be some what like this-

The link to my information thread-

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/411056-intake-manifold-design.html

-The intake manifold will be laying flat not at a 90 degree angle as the stock one is.
-Half round plenum- 4 '' wide x 4'' tall (at the peak) x 15'' long
-Oval runner tubes- 2 1/8'' id wide x 1 1/4'' in tall x 4 - 6'' long (room depending)
- Will be using a gasket matched cnc cut flange to mount to the head (head gasket matched as well).
- The angle of the runners will be 15 degrees.
- Throttle body will also be angled back at 15 degrees.
- Will be running either a 65 or 60 mm throttle body.
- The intake will be made out of aluminum that will be 1/4'' thick.
-Flange will be 1/2'' thick.
- The runner with protrude into the intake 1/8 - 1-4'' and will be flared out to smooth the transition of the air into the runners.
- I am uncertain on the liter size of the intake yet as I will be running the numbers to figure it out once I get home in nov.
-Image at end of post

The intake will be flow bench tested before I mount and run it to make sure that one runner will not out flow the rest. I think that should cover it.

I will be aiming for 200 whp at 8 psi with this set up. The head will have crane 14's and adjustable cam gears, ss standard size valves, BC springs and Ti retainers, along with a mild port and polish. I will be using the thunderbird m90 supercharger with 2 1/2'' piping to a FMIC with tial 38mm w/g and greddy rz bov along with an oil catch can and 20% reduced udp. The bottom end is stock for now but was rebuilt about 20,000 miles ago so the insides are pretty fresh and should hold for awhile. Will be using Megasquirt v3 for tuning. Will be using 32 pound injectors with a stealth 340 fuel pump and 1:1 areo fuel pressure regulator.

So to end please tell me what you thing of the design and were I could make improvements to the setup. Good or bad please let me know I am open to ideas and criticism. I am new to building intakes but have worked with welding on aluminum, mild steel, and ss for awhile.

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[born2tune]

my opinion is that the aftermarket intake manifolds should be backed by trail and error on machines like a dyno or other testing methods able to measure CFM/air flow, using several hours of re-designing and engineering to maximize air flow for an improved upgrade. otherwise you might just create a turbulence monster that might just slow down performance. It would be awesome if you make it work really good, good luck with it and if you make it work im here watching!!!

 

[Slo2gen]

Friend of mines car made 233whp at 8psi on a S16g and a low compression motor and a stock head. Just an FYI, if you want to try and build this though more power to you. IMO theory is all great and should do fine, but real world applications always differ from theory. Will it do better than stock, probably, is it the best? Only a flow bench can tell you that!

I know being as your using a supercharger its going to be different as far as airflow and what not so it seems like an interesting build. Please do the community a favor and take tons of pics

 

[talonDSMerr]

Will you be modeling this in a CAD program and using analysis software? Building it and then testing it on a flow bench only to find out it doesn't work the way you want it to and then having to redesign certain elements and build and test it all over again takes a lot of time and money.

Always neat to see these types of things though, keep it up!

 

[Fotowntalon]

My honest opinion, is this is a waste of time and money, sorry buddy. Not to say that it isn't extremely interesting and I somewhat like the design. But some factors to consider, from my stint with IM experimenting.

I don't believe that with your design, that you will have firewall clearance after throwing a TB on, especially with that angle. Also you do know with shortening the runners that much you are losing a bunch of TQ, at least at your current state. My motor is very well built and when I put on my IM I still lost about 10-15lbs of TQ I believe it was, things with shortened runners don't make any power until you are built to be running way up in the higher RPMs.

Another thing to consider, at your current power level, the stocker should suit you fine for a long time to come.

Lastly for your current power goals, you are only aiming for 200whp. Hahn's turbo kit advertises between 200-225 with there stage 1 turbo kit on just bolting to a stock car (with an exhaust). This makes me feel if you had a successful supercharger design you should easily be hitting that with little to no modifications.

 

[junkyarddsm]

The reason that I have to make a new intake is the way the supercharger will set. It will be mounted right above were the intake is located. It will no connect to the intake in any way but though the ic piping. So the stocker will not work for this set up. I have to gain some clearance so I am not cutting up my hood to bad. I am already going to have to raise it about 3-5'' (cowl style). That is the reason why I am going for the flat style.

As it will be supercharged they tend to see lower tq numbers and I am hoping that that will help to off set the amount lost. I know that n/a see better numbers with longer runners but though what I have read and seen on dyno grafts forced induction see better numbers with shorter runner.

I do plan on their being a lot of R & D behind this. I figure about 3-4 intake manifolds and I should have it pretty close to were I want it. Their will be no CAD or other programs going into this just flow benching and then redesign. This is one reason why I posted this thread was to gain from insight from people that have made their own intakes and what people have seen to work.

I set my power goals low so that if I happen to hit bigger numbers I will be happier with the setup. I know that may sound dumb but I am being realistic. I have no real expectations out of this but to see a good power gain over stock (maybe 50-60 whp). I am building the head up for my own wants. I feel that with all stock head it would still hit the 200 make but I have a spare head and always wanted to build it up just feel like the right time to do it.

Also to add the rpm range is going to be max at 7,000 rpm. If I see that what I have is working and see good number at that range I will be upgrading the supercharger to handle higher rpm range. That will be farther down the road and I have built the bottom end or have done the 2.4 swap.

 

[talonDSMerr]

After your first manifold, you'll have a flow bench number, whether it is higher or lower than the stock manifold. From there, how and where do you plan to make improvements? I'm not trying to shoot the idea down, but without some way to actually visualize the flow pattern inside the manifold, it seems like you'll be taking shots in the dark which may improve or hurt flow on the next iteration.

Just somethings to think about, but if you've already thought it through, I'd love to hear how you plan on going about making revisions.

 

[junkyarddsm]

After I get the first manifold made and beach tested and as long as their are no major signs of lean flow or rich flow I will bolt it and dyno and see what I get. If I see that I have really bad numbers then ill try another setup. I would like to get a flow analyzer program and run it but I by no means have an idea of how to use it. I may talk to a few places and see if they could do it for me and let me know the out comes. That would be the best and smartest way to do things. It is on the list of things to think about but trying it old school first and see what happens. If you know someone that has the program to do a good analysis of the intake I would be more them willing to pay for the time and effort.

 

[Leonthefaded]

I cannot wait to see pictures, from start to finish. If you want somone to is willing to test this on thier N/A motor. I'll bolt it on and give it a go! Not only do I support you but I really cant wait for a finished or hell a R & D product to bolt on! 2g's need moar parts!

 

[junkyarddsm]

Right now im not planing on making a n/a intake. Once I have this one done I will see how it goes and may do an obx style for the 420a n/a.

I am posting pictures of were I got my idea from and why I choose to go on this path. As I have seem tho with computer to real world things do do work how they should tho. Im still looking for input on this and thank you for the advise thats has been posted. Once I get started in nov. with the project I will post pictures.

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[junkyarddsm]

Just to make a it clear I am not sell this in this thread. If I do happen to make it work and everything pans out I may build a few more to sell but will become a supporting freelancer. I post this so no one gets the idea I am selling one or any in this thread.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Just to make a it clear I am not sell this in this thread. If I do happen to make it work and everything pans out I may build a few more to sell but will become a supporting freelancer. I post this so no one gets the idea I am selling one or any in this thread.

I don't think anyone took it that way. This is a really cool project. Please post updates often!

 

[RadDsm]

Not trying to change any ideas, but would making something like this create a more even flow between all 4 cylinders?

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[VelocitàPaola]

Not trying to change any ideas, but would making something like this create a more even flow between all 4 cylinders?

It might create a more symmetrical flow, but not necessarily more even. Plus, that'd be almost impossible to do with a 420A.

 

[goodbuds]

Not trying to change any ideas, but would making something like this create a more even flow between all 4 cylinders?

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wtfit..... pu tit away...

 

[junkyarddsm]

I did think about mounting the throttle body in the middle like that but as stated just no room for it unless you were to mount it on the underside of the intake making it a pain to work with. Nice idea tho.

I will be posting updates once I get back to the states. I am starting to think about not extruding into the intake manifold but will be building 2 one extruded and one not to see if their is any gain from it.

I don't think anyone took it that way. This is a really cool project. Please post updates often!

I did not think any one did but I just wanted to make it clear as to not break any rules.

 

[junkyarddsm]

Update got the metal in last light for my intake and just to show every one what im working with. The metal came from rmr great dealer and fair prices.

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[turboglenn]

I can't believe i'm just finding this thread! Where did you get the pics showing airflow on those intake renderings? Do you know what program that is??

Also, i think you're off to a great start and have a good mind about what you're doing, i'm sure that through a few variations of intake you're going to be onto something fairly effectice, and maybe even something sort of innovative. I've often wondered why no one has gotten away from the typical DSM style intakes, but i gues most of it has to do with room under the hood and the component layout as they come factory.

Some one scoffed at the intake with mid-plenum mounted TB and i have to say, it's provent to better equallize airflow (SDSEFI.com has a lot of info on building intakes, fuel rails, manifolds for turbos and more although not the hottest looking parts they have built effective parts - check em out! and read the tech articles, the menu at bottomof page is i think the only way to find them easily on their site)

Anyway, I do like the slanted idea in the pics and think it's deifnitely better than the typical 90* runner-plenum joints for a system with the TB on one far end. I started a SMIM and never fimished it, i need to pick it back up, you guys out there doing the DIY stuff give me good jump starts here and there so keep it up!!!!

i can't wait to see the first piece being born, and i honestly think you should shoot for higher HP but that's your call and your car so i'll live

I think i need to check the NT areas more often people are still doing too much cool ish over here

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Some one scoffed at the intake with mid-plenum mounted TB and i have to say, it's provent to better equallize airflow (SDSEFI.com has a lot of info on building intakes, fuel rails, manifolds for turbos and more although not the hottest looking parts they have built effective parts - check em out! and read the tech articles, the menu at bottomof page is i think the only way to find them easily on their site)

Even so, there's just no room for it...

 

[junkyarddsm]

In the first post their is a link to another thread I started about information on were I got my information and the place I got the metal. Lots of good information in the link.

 

[bullettdsm]

I think i need to check the NT areas more often people are still doing too much cool ish over here

You got that right Glenn. We be cool over in this part of the world You've seen my ITB's, you've seen my LTH, you've seen my special water resevour for the W/A intercooler set-up.....oh wait, you made that,

MB

 

[junkyarddsm]

Really stated on the intake this week have some sneak peck pics for anyone who is waiting to see how this is going. I trashed the intruded part of the intake after some reading and a look at more graphs and with out the program to do flow tests it would not be the best idea to try. So here you go let me know what you think of it so far. I still have a lot more to do but it is a start.

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[DSMReviver]

Why slanted on the runners? The air flow will have to turn in order to enter the head.

 

[eSCAPEist_]

Interested to see how this turns out.

 

[junkyarddsm]

If you look at the pictures I posted and read up on intake designe you will see that with the angle of the tb and the runners the flow will have less turbulence and will run faster into the head. So the little bit it will slow down before it hits the head to turn will not have as great affect.