Injector dynamics vs. Fuel Injector clinic

[ThunderChild]

Searched a bit, replied to an old thread and didn't see alot of activity. Just wondering if anyone has used Injector dynamics stuff. I've been doing research, and there's a lot of back and forth between all the bigger companies.

I know alot of dsm'ers swear by FIC, and im not saying there's anything wrong with them, but wondering if all the talk is really worth it for ID's. Anyone got experience with both?

 

[ceedawg]

For the money I would go for fic High z's. If your car puts out 500 hp ,idles and responds iike a charm with the fic's why would I spend 100s more for the IDs and have the same results?

 

[GST with PSI]

I'm REALLY happy with the FIC 1650 High Z injectors I'm running. One of the few parts I can honestly say warrant the large price tag.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

I will jump in only because I had a massive talk with the tech guys at deatschwerks recently, he explained ID and FIC and Deatschwerks all buy from the same supplier. However it's the volumes they buy and then the added parts like top hats that they machine that make a difference, he said this injector (pointed to a Ford unit) and said it's the same from 1 company to the next, they flow the same and work the same, the difference is how many they buy and if they decide to use that same injector on another application etc etc.

So while the price of ID makes them seem better they are not, it's high because they bought in such low volumes,

He basically said just buy the lowest priced injectors . I myself have high Z 1100 from FIC and he said they are the same versions as there own but it was $200 cheaper or close enough, yet they do and flow the same,.

Most of the time it's also brands your paying for. While I have always wanted fic, now I know this I will get the injectors from a good brand but the lowest price, so if Deatschwerks comes out cheaper than fic or any others then I will buy them,

 

[GST with PSI]

I agree. These days, you'll get a quality injector from most of the name brand retailers. I think the differentiating factor most people should consider is customer service. If I've got an issue with my injectors, or need them cleaned, flowed, serviced, whatever...I want to buy from a company that can do all of the above without any hassles. This has always been my personal experience with FIC, so I don't mind giving them my money.

Also, FIC is a supporting vendor here, so it's nice to buy from the guys who help keep this place up and running.

 

[gofer]

I can't speak on the Injector Dynamics injectors or customer service but having been a FIC user since 2009 and getting a chance to meet the owner and the people that work for him, I wouldn't take my business to anyone else.

FIC has really stepped up their game with their Data Match Technology info that comes with every set of injectors now, too. I bought my set of 2150's back in 2010/2011 and it came with a generic sheet with recommended dead times, nothing specific though. Recently I sent my 2150's in to get serviced (flow tested/cleaned) and when FIC return shipped them, somehow, USPS lost my injectors. I immediately called FIC and no questions asked, they sent me a brand new set of 2150's that had their new data match tech. and it's night and day better than it was just a few years ago.

- Flow rate (to calculate global) by S/N of each individual injector.
- Offset data (dead times) by S/N of each individual injector.
- Offset data by voltage and base fuel pressure, which are numbers you can plug into ECMLink DA InjBatteryAdj and zero dead times in your fuel tab.​

Here's what that sheet looks like now, basically giving you plug and play numbers to put into ECMLink for dead times and globals.

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I can appreciate that they're a supporting vendor here too but, really, their product and customer service speaks for itself.

 

[NB4G63T]

I know if I had to do it again it would be either FIC or RCI. I've been running these RCI 2150's for a couple years now and these hi impedence injectors are by far one of the best mods I've ever done to my car. It just run so much better in all aspects. I had them flowed and cleaned by a shop in Toronto this past summer and they were quite impressed at the static flow number being within a 1% of each other. RCI uses the same bosch injector they all use.

FIC certainly impresses me with their amazing customer service and continued support of DSM events through out the year. Hopefully can meet the owner this year at the SO.

 

[Vegas Smith]

It doesn't hurt that the DSMLink guys specifically recommend and sell FIC injectors.

 

[NB4G63T]

Vegas I'd say it's because FIC is one of the only injector companies that truly cater to the DSM crowd, which to me is awesome.
Also it doesn't hurt that the people who work there a great to deal with and their product is a quality piece.
If I were Tom or Dave I'd want to deal with FIC too.

 

[Vegas Smith]

I remember reading somewhere that Tom or Dave's favorite injector was the FIC 1100 Hi-z. Thankfully that's what I just bought

 

[ThunderChild]

Wow, I needed to check this sooner, haha. I appreciate all try feedback, and it seems my gut feeling was correct. I just couldn't justify the extra cost rationally for the ID's, though I'm sure they are a spectacular injector, the FIC's seems to save a good chunk of money while delivering the same performance.

One reason I posted this thread was cuz i am looking to get some new injectors (I currently have low Z PTE 880's) for future upgrades and the idle quality on the current ones kinda sucks IMO.

I don't have access to e85, so I was looking to go with the FIC-2150's or ID-2000's, so FIC's will probabaly be the go-to. @GST with PSI , im kinda looking to follow your fuel system by adding an a1000 pump after my 340 stealth, and i just dont know how far 1650's could carry vs the 2150's. The stainless bodies on the 1650's are pretty enticing.

 

[gofer]

If you don't have access to E85 then what type of fuel are you going to run and what's the end all be all turbo for your setup?

 

[GST with PSI]

I don't have access to e85, so I was looking to go with the FIC-2150's or ID-2000's, so FIC's will probabaly be the go-to. @GST with PSI , im kinda looking to follow your fuel system by adding an a1000 pump after my 340 stealth, and i just dont know how far 1650's could carry vs the 2150's. The stainless bodies on the 1650's are pretty enticing.

If I had to do it again, I'd probably try some alternatives to my setup. It's good for a ton of power, but I think you could come up with a comparable solution for cheaper. If you do decide to do what I did, you'll need two 340 Stealth pumps to feed an A1000.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd just try a single Walbro 450 before doing anything crazy. Some of the guys here are getting really good results with them on E85.

 

[ThunderChild]

I'll do some more research then, id looked at the a1000, walbros and the Bosch 044, all seeming to be the main choices for pressure half. It'll be a bit before I actually need that much pump, but I appreciate the info.

As for the injectors, im still kinda torn between 1650's and 2150's. I may switch to e85 later, since I can order barrels of it cheaper than buying from any pump, but there's no stations within a reasonable distance and I don't know if i want to limit myself to the 1650's due to e85 compatibility.

 

[ceedawg]

Wow, I needed to check this sooner, haha. I appreciate all try feedback, and it seems my gut feeling was correct. I just couldn't justify the extra cost rationally for the ID's, though I'm sure they are a spectacular injector, the FIC's seems to save a good chunk of money while delivering the same performance.

One reason I posted this thread was cuz i am looking to get some new injectors (I currently have low Z PTE 880's) for future upgrades and the idle quality on the current ones kinda sucks IMO.

I don't have access to e85, so I was looking to go with the FIC-2150's or ID-2000's, so FIC's will probabaly be the go-to. @GST with PSI , im kinda looking to follow your fuel system by adding an a1000 pump after my 340 stealth, and i just dont know how far 1650's could carry vs the 2150's. The stainless bodies on the 1650's are pretty enticing.

Just go with the same high z 1650s GST has and call it a day. They are better than the 2150s,idle better, don't rust inside and can handle different fuels which the 2150s.are not built to use. Plus I have a set that I just bought from FIC and I also have a 400lph walbro single setup with -8 feed and -6 return. Some have made this kind of hp single 400+lph pump and stock fuel lines.. Goal is 600plus E85 1650 highs are plenty for race and gas 500 plus hp.

 

[GST with PSI]

As for the injectors, im still kinda torn between 1650's and 2150's.

I had the same question a while back. The quoted posts below are good information.

The main questions you need to ask yourself are what your power goal is, and what turbo and fuel you'll be using to get there. Take that information and the feedback below and make a choice.

I hope you gentlemen don't mind me posting this...
@donniekak
@gofer
@turbosax2
@snowborder714

I need a recommendation on injectors.

I'm looking to upgrade to a set of FIC High-Z injectors. I like the design features of the 1650s but they are priced at $823. For $798 I can pick up a set of 2150s. My question is, how big of a difference in quality is there between the 1650s and the 2150s? For the money, I'd obviously like the bigger injector. But, I'm also looking for something that will give me the best driveability possible.

Any of you guys run both, and have an opinion on the differences/perks between the two?

I've ran both. The 1650's supported 140+ in the 1/4 in an almost full weight 1g on e85.

They work much better than the 2150's at idle, especially with gasoline.

The1650's idled great, no cruise hiccup, and had a good enough spray pattern to get 30mpg on gasoline.

Love my new 2150's. The old ones did just fine but with IDT's setup on these new ones my car behaves like it's idling on 450's even with 91. Never had the chance to tune a DSM with Hi-Z 1650's but I would guess the temperament between the two is negligible at best, it just comes down to how much injector you want.

Personally, 10 times out of 10 I'd go with 2150's, I'd rather have too much injector and not need it even if it's far fetched to think I'll ever be over 80% IDC with them.

The problem with 2150's is you can't run oxygenated race fuel, and it's always in the back of your head that they may be corroding with e85 use. 1650's are stainless and will never have issues with any fuel you run through them.

As a bonus feature 1650's don't need an adapter to plug into the stock wiring.

I never ran the 1650's, but I ran the 2150's for about 3 years, and now I'm on 1100 Hi-Z's. The 2150's were great for me even on a t-25. I think I got to like 30% IDC on E85, but they still idled and drove great. Here's a video on gas:

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I only ran the 2150's since I got a deal I couldn't refuse. If you go with the 2150's, I do not recommend using the adapter harnesses. They didn't clip in securely enough to give me a good feeling.

I got rid of the 2150's in favor of the 1100's last year to get a little better idle (and it's definitely not a big difference), and to have a little more peace of mind about the internals of the injector. I never had any problems with the 2150's even though I didn't do the suggested maintenance when letting them sit in the car for months at a time, but it was always a worry.

Something I didn't consider was the limitation to not running oxygenated fuel since that's out of my realm, glad you pointed that out.

The corrosion piece, like Eric mentioned, has never been a problem for me either and I don't go through the recommended cleaning that FIC has on their site. Before I hang the keys up for the summer I fill the tank with 91 and try to empty it before I take it down for more than a few months. I didn't trust the PnP connectors either, I just used the pigtails that came with the injectors and hardwired them in for piece of mind.

Hi-Z 1650's : 43.5psi - E85 - 90% IDC... 580whp
Hi-Z 1650's : 58psi - E85 - 90% IDC... 668whp

Hi-Z 2150's : 43.5psi - E85 - 90% IDC... 803whp
​

Running E85 on a FP Black (71lbs/m) you're easily maxing out those 1650's w/o significantly bumping base fuel pressure, even then you could be seeing 100% IDC's on a efficient setup. An FP Black is still a bolt-on turbo that can max out those Hi-Z 1650's on E85.

​

I actually worked for FIC for a short time when they released their 1650's as a marketing resource. The biggest selling points were the stainless internals and idle/cruise smoothness. I spoke with a lot of the testers who were running 2150's and switched to 1650's either just so we could get some feedback/a review/short quotes for marketing or because they wanted to run race fuel and didn't feel safe doing so on the 2150's, even though some did it. Almost everyone was thoroughly impressed with the idle/cruise quality as compared to the 2150's, as well as how easy they were to tune (using FIC supplied ECU settings, even though some of these settings were very raw and not able to be tested before sending out). Tuners especially were loving them as they could have the car's idle dialed in very quickly (10-15 minutes tops) whereas the 2150's were very finicky and took more time, and that doesn't even touch on the back and forth game once you put cruise into the mix. The internals of the injector are what allows the nice transition from idle to cruise and you won't get that with the 2150's.

There were even people running the 1650's who were maxing them out even before installing them, but just by bumping up base fuel pressure, were able to have enough fuel flow to support their setup. I've always been with the mindset that I'd run stock base pressure if at all possible and purchase injectors to fit that, but the more I talked with testers/tuners, the more I found people don't really care about stock base pressure and prefer to run the injector they want even if that means running 4-5 bar base pressure. We even pushed them a bit past 5 bar on an in-house 1g just to see what happened (even though it's not recommended) and they still worked as expected.

Most people have not been disappointed with the 2150's overall and they are a very popular injector for those needing the massive flow they offer. Just minor quirks and tuning issues make them less user friendly. The customers were definitely not happy and a bit confused as to why the 1650's were smaller yet more expensive, especially those who didn't necessarily need the race fuel compatibility. But once people made the switch, they were calling/e-mailing back in saying it was worth the extra cost.

You can check out some of the reviews on their blog:
http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/index.php?route=blog/category/home

 

[donniekak]

The choice between 1650's and 2150's comes down to usage of the car, and goals.



The only time I would personally run the 2150's is on an e85 only car that gets driven regularly. It's easier to stretch a pump out with the 2150's because you can lower the pressure.

For a car that's going to run pump gas, race fuel, or is a pure race car I'd run 1650's, possibly 8 of them. A race car with a mechanical pump could probably get more out of the 1650's than most common in tank pumps could get out of 2150's anyway, and the 1650's aren't going to blow the car up after sitting for a month or two with alcohol in them.

 

[ThunderChild]

I appreciate all the responses, great to see the firsthand experiences and both sides of the coin.

I believe 1650's will be my injector, the car will be driven daily occasionally, but fairley ragged edge. So ill definitely need the dependability and precision. Next i need to address the rest of the fuel system.

 

[boost97gst]

I'm sure this has been mentioned but make SURE you run a tank of pump piss(93 oct or highest you can get) every few tanks of e85.
The black goo we all read about does happen but i believe it to be more of a winter mix e85 issue.
If you're like most of us you probably aren't driving the dsm much in the winter.
Just thought i'd share, i'm sure you're aware of it though.

 

[ThunderChild]

If you don't have access to E85 then what type of fuel are you going to run and what's the end all be all turbo for your setup?

Sorry I missed this as I was reading from my phone. My best access to fuel is 92 octane non-e, there is also e10 92 octane, and I believe there is a place that pumps 110 by the airport (unsure on that last one). My goal would be pump gas as I still want to DD it.

End setup will be a little odd: going the Ray Peter's route with an gen 5 m90 and hx50 (turbo may change). Final engine will be a 2.1 de-stroker (purely for longevity) in the 8-8.5:1 range, auto swap. Planning to run dual w2a I/C's and maybe/prolly meth for the track. I havent finalized the engine internals, but the setup I'm mocking up on my spare block currently.

I'm sure this has been mentioned but make SURE you run a tank of pump piss(93 oct or highest you can get) every few tanks of e85.
The black goo we all read about does happen but i believe it to be more of a winter mix e85 issue.
If you're like most of us you probably aren't driving the dsm much in the winter.
Just thought i'd share, i'm sure you're aware of it though.

Yeah, e85 is so scarce around here I doubt id swap over anytime soon. If it were readily available id be all over it, but sadly...

 

[bling5tatus]

ID has a direct partnership with Bosch which I'm unsure that other companies can claim. They also have a new x-series injector that are built to spec and not a modified OEM unit. I've been advised by people more experienced than me that ID injectors are as good as they say they are and they're better than the typical offering from other brands.

This comes back down to you have to pay to play. It's not a matter of x works fine so why use y.... sure the 1650 hi-z injectors do the trick but that doesn't mean they're doing it best.

 

[donniekak]

ID has a direct partnership with Bosch which I'm unsure that other companies can claim. They also have a new x-series injector that are built to spec and not a modified OEM unit. I've been advised by people more experienced than me that ID injectors are as good as they say they are and they're better than the typical offering from other brands.

This comes back down to you have to pay to play. It's not a matter of x works fine so why use y.... sure the 1650 hi-z injectors do the trick but that doesn't mean they're doing it best.

The fic 1650's were developed for fic by Bosch. Fic paid for the injectors to pass oe endurance testing. Id had similar 1700cc injectors developed, but didn't pay for endurance testing, instead choosing to beta test on their customers. The first batch had lots of failures.

The fic 2150's and Id 2000's are the same exact injectors. They are bought in large batches and flow tested to be grouped in matched sets.

 

[ceedawg]

ID has a direct partnership with Bosch which I'm unsure that other companies can claim. They also have a new x-series injector that are built to spec and not a modified OEM unit. I've been advised by people more experienced than me that ID injectors are as good as they say they are and they're better than the typical offering from other brands.

This comes back down to you have to pay to play. It's not a matter of x works fine so why use y.... sure the 1650 hi-z injectors do the trick but that doesn't mean they're doing it best.

What would the ID injectors being doing better than the fic injectors ? Or even at perhaps a given flow per minute or given hp? What makes it better?

 

[bling5tatus]

This is an example of "guilty until proven innocent".

http://injectordynamics.com/articles/the-bullshit-epidemic/

I encourage you to call ID and talk to someone that works there.... or if you're so inclined call FIC and ask them, "if the price were the same, what technical aspects of FIC injectors over ID injectors would make them a better choice for my car?" Your answers lie within.

Also, I'll just leave this here with the comment that it only took me 3 minutes this morning to find this information online "with a simple search" as so many like to assert others should do:

http://injectordynamics.com/articles/the-same-as-injector-dynamics-but-cheaper/

I encourage anyone that is genuinely curious about things to research them.

 

[donniekak]

If you look at the Bosch part number on the fic 2150's, and id 2000's they are the exact same injector. The only difference is in how well they are matched. Whoever buys the largest lot of them has the largest pool to draw from to get a closer match when making sets.

I've used every injector there is from stock to 2150cc. There is a reason I have fic 1650's in my car. They are the most expensive for a reason. My car drives like stock on any fuel, and can run any fuel without worry of damage to the injectors.

I encourage anyone to search "id1700 failures" and see how id tried to roll out a non endurance tested injector to beta test on its customers. It looks like they ended up going back to Bosch and getting a new design endurance tested to fix the issue. But, I don't like companies that actually charge people to basically test a product.