Information on EVO3 GT turbochargers from manufacturer.

[kengsx]

This thread got my attention because I'm a metallurgist at Boeing. My degree is in Materials Engineering (7 years), and I perform failure analysis and destructive testing of metallic components critical to military helicopters. I would like to know from Slowboy:

1) What metallurgical evaluation is being performed vs what information do you want to prove?

2) What is the experience level of the person conducting the evaluation and what type of equipment are they using?

I ask this of anyone, including Buschur, Slowboy, or anyone else:

- Would you like a 2nd opinion? I can perform this work for free, as I have unlimited access to the laboratory and all the equipment. I can perform the following:

1) chemical evaluations using energy dispersive x-ray analysis (EDX)
2) hardness testing (to determine ultimate tensile strength)
3) microstructure (to determine grain size, impurities or other anomalies)
4) compressive or tensile residual stress using x-ray diffraction (good to see what type of manufacturing stresses were imparted on the component and whether it is conducive to crack growth)
5) many other types of tests depending on what we really want to find.

As an engineer, I like numbers and facts. So let me know if you are interested.

Ken Young

 

[tighty]

Sorry...but Ken = like popeye's chicken...

SBR should send their turbo to him since their friend is so slow.

 

[suicidal2af]

Why is the burden on me to dyno a piece of crap turbo?

I love selling the MHI version, we have made 400.3 WHP on the MHI version, and to be quite honest thats just fine with me.

I could really care less if the turbo does or does not perform, I have seen enough of it with my own eyes to know I would not bother putting this on my own engine, nor do I feel I need to..... I am not the one trying to prove how "great" they are

MGH

You are, however, the one trying to prove how "bad" they are.

The burden isn't necessarily on you, but due to your stance in this scenario, a lot of people are wanting to see what kind of results you could get from it. On one hand, we have Buschur, probably one of the biggest names in all things 4G63, claiming it's a wonderful product. On the other, we have you guys, one of the most trusted shops in the game, claiming it's a piece. You also, afaik, have pulled the best numbers off of a 16G. Who better to run it through the paces and see what it's capable of?

Again, nobody is demanding(well, at least I'm not) that you run this turbo through the hoops. But there are 2 keys to whether this is a good turbo: performance and longevity. Longevity isn't really something we can test, only time will tell that...but performance we can see immediately.

And if it does happen to perform worse than the MHI turbo, then you just won your argument.

 

[Clinth]

I'm looking at buying the Gt turbo I appears to be the best bang for the buck. But I sure would like to see some numbers on it first. It would be great to see the results of the test KEN is suggesting, I hope someone takes him up on his offer.

Clinth

 

[kengsx]

Sorry...but Ken = like popeye's chicken...

SBR should send their turbo to him since their friend is so slow.

As long as I'm not like mcdonalds... I suppose I was hoping to be compared to a good microbrewery.

 

[boostedinaz]

Here is my take. We have two vendors that have different views, yet neither of them want to back up what they claim with real world testing. SBR is having a friend do there testing, but that in it self is shady. Dave hasn’t even posted again in this thread and hasn’t let us know who of the 50 are having good luck, bad luck, or are just happy that there car is running well. It looks like we, as the consumer, are now the ones that have to test products and let the vendors know how the part they sell, or say are crap, really work. The day of vendors selling stuff that they KNOW will work are over, now they just sell what they can make the most on.

Unless SBR is willing to send both turbo’s to an independent person for testing who knows what we will get back. Until Dave lets us know who these magical 50 are or does a back to back dyno test, I think they both should just STFU. They want to stoke a fire and prove there point, but they don’t want to spend the money to defend there view for the people that keep them in business.

 

[leet]

Here is my take. We have two vendors that have different views, yet neither of them want to back up what they claim with real world testing. SBR is having a friend do there testing, but that in it self is shady. Dave hasn’t even posted again in this thread and hasn’t let us know who of the 50 are having good luck, bad luck, or are just happy that there car is running well. It looks like we, as the consumer, are now the ones that have to test products and let the vendors know how the part they sell, or say are crap, really work. The day of vendors selling stuff that they KNOW will work are over, now they just sell what they can make the most on.

Unless SBR is willing to send both turbo’s to an independent person for testing who knows what we will get back. Until Dave lets us know who these magical 50 are or does a back to back dyno test, I think they both should just STFU. They want to stoke a fire and prove there point, but they don’t want to spend the money to defend there view for the people that keep them in business.

Agreed. At this point, it is either:

Defend your argument with facts, or back off.

I deleted everything that was off topic. Discuss the turbos, not economics. If I have to start deleting stuff again, I will lock this. Consider yourselves warned.

 

[tighty]

but Ken...Popeye's chicken is the shiznit! .

I say screw both of em. I'll just take my business to RRE. Too bad also, because I'm just about to start building a 6-bolt with a whole brand new setup thats prolly gonna give them a good deal of business.

 

[Steve93Talon]

but Ken...Popeye's chicken is the shiznit! .

I say screw both of em. I'll just take my business to RRE. Too bad also, because I'm just about to start building a 6-bolt with a whole brand new setup thats prolly gonna give them a good deal of business.

And that would accomplish what exactly? They're also selling the knock-off. I have a feeling these turbos aren't selling NEARLY as well as the vendors who support them claim. seriously, has one person who actually runs one chimed in yet?

I think that those of us who have an objection to supposedly reputable vendors selling imitation Mitsu turbos for more profit need to take action for ourselves. Personally, I'm not concerned with independent testing. I could care less if the thing turns out to perform and hold up as well as the MHI EVO3. The fact remains that vendors are buying them cheaper, selling them for the same price, and in the process fooling some people into thinking they're getting a real EVO3.

Consider this: If Bailey, Banks, and Biddle started to buy fake Rolexes for half of what real ones cost, then sold them as real ones for the same price, then when some people caught on they claimed they didn't know - even though there was a subtle indication such as a different stamping, let's say - then continued selling them for the same price, what do you think would happen? They'd be under investigation and probably on the cover of USA Today, that's what. The fact that we're dealing with such a small niche market is the ONLY thing protecting the fraudulent actions of these people. I'd be interested to know what Mitsubishi Motor Corp. would have to say about certain vendors who are selling exact copies of their product.

 

[tighty]

What if it performs better then the regular Evo3?

I haven't heard anything about RRE selling them on here yet though so I dunno.

Guess I'll just buy my stuff somewhere other then them too...but then again they're not on here fighting for their side or making any claims so I might give them the chance to have my business in the future.

 

[keltalon]

Now do you mean the Evo III GT? Or the actual Evo 16g turbo? And if you mean the GT Turbo, you do realize it's not from an Evo and has nothing to do with Mitsubishi right?

i mean the evolution lancer original mhi 16g turbo! the real one with the real thrust bearing, well you know what i am talking about. i would like to see bushcur post some dyno results of the evo gt turbo

 

[keltalon]

Moderators,
Please do not close this thread. This debate will go on until real results are posted. If this thread dies, who knows how many will pop up elsewhere. It has remained mostly civil (thanks to everyone for that) and hopefully will remain so. It is no surprise that some in the community feel lied to, or betrayed. Tempers will flare in these circumstances and considering this, things are very calm.

As for the legal case:
US companies must give fair representation of the product that is being sold and are not to withhold pertinent information from the purchaser. That is the law. However, if the person in question did not ask for an Evo 3 16G and did in fact order an Evo 3 GT, then the consumer is responsible for the order and is subject to the suppliers restocking fees, handling fees and any other BS fee that is stacked on top. With all of this in perspective, both purchaser of the turbo and supplier may want to consult a business lawyer for further insight into the possible repercussions. Please don't discuss this further in this thread as it may lead to it being locked. Start a new thread called "Didn't get the turbo I thought I ordered."

As for where it is made:
China has the largest counterfit market in the world. If you want a knockoff, they’ve got it. Everything from Callaway golf clubs, Harry Potter books, even baby formula. Most of these knockoffs are harmless look-alikes that function much like the original, but have no R&D behind them and break easily because they are low quality. Taiwan however, is a different country all together (not according to official US policy however). If the R&D was done in Taiwan, then it could be done for far less than a State-side company, thus lower overhead and lower cost, with far less engineering concerns for loss in quality as compared to a look-alike from the mainland. If you are going to call it a China GT and it’s from Taiwan, please call it a Taipei GT to signify it is from Taiwan, not mainland China. This is very important to those who know about the implications of Chinese counterfits.

As for the turbo:
If the Evo 3 GT is in fact the turbo it was designed to be, then it will stand the test of DSMer abuse. What I am curious to know is the physical abilities/attributes of the turbo. It has a larger flapper, and is made with thicker blades (not typically a great thing for spool). It is also made of different materials. But what does this all amount to. Let’s examine the evidence.

Buschur has decided that this is a good turbo and posts that the information on SBR’s site is bogus. Buschur’s information says that the ported housing is in the cast. The picture from SBR’s site tells the same story.
From SBR’s site:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

From Buschur’s info:

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Buschur’s information then points to an upgraded flapper and SBR’s site does not even mention this (also a design feature that should have told SBR the engineers knew what they were doing as this is a design flaw on the MHI spec 3). Again, the picture from SBR’s site shows the bigger flapper, but doesn’t mention it.
From SBR’s site:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

From Buschur’s info:

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I could pick apart the information further, but this debate will still be here tomorrow and if you’ve followed along this far, then you get the idea. I am unbiased in the matter and will probably buy whichever turbo is, in the end, a better performing turbo for my application (street driven car).

What I still want to know is the reasoning for twice the blade thickness on the GT. The metallurgy argument will depend of what SBR posts (which will hopefully sound more like confirmation of Buschur’s post).

To Buschur and SBR:
Both of you have become very reputable in the DSM community, and many enthusiasts owe you debts to turning our passions into a reality. I for one thank you both for reporting your finds. When the dust settles, the facts will be known, and hopefully we will have another great turbo to choose from and you will have a new product to offer. Thank you both for your time and devotion to seeing this through. A dyno sheet, timeslip, or some other quantifiable measure of the GT turbo would be a key end-all figure in this.

are you an attorney? if not you very well know how to speak like one hey thank for post

 

[98talonAWD]

This is getting rediculous. Here are the simple facts!

if you like the turbo and want to buy it.. buy it

if you dont like the turbo and dont want to buy it.. dont buy it.

What is so hard to figure out here eveyone, why argue?!... this isnt going to be a "magical 16g" that produces 100whp more than the MHI 16g!, for all you people that are trying to get he newest badest 16g around... they are of equal size. You all like to call yourselfs tuners or DSM guys.. then start acting like it. we are all jumping one each others backs about a ####ing turbo thats made in china or some shit... seriously.

To all the people that are arguing about this... each of you buy the turbo and do your own tests and report back, until then stop the BS... please.

SBR- they arent selling the turbos, nor are they interested in selling them, so why should they prove something they dont sell or dont want to sell?... everything else they offer to customers is very well PROVEN and if you know them like i do.. they arent gonna screw you on a product, so dont blame them.

< we all own one on here.. i didnt see a mommy powered honda symbol on here, so quit the whining!

 

[ryu]

I could care less if the thing turns out to perform and hold up as well as the MHI EVO3. The fact remains that vendors are buying them cheaper, selling them for the same price, and in the process fooling some people into thinking they're getting a real EVO3.

werd

 

[99gst_racer]

Personally, I'm not concerned with independent testing. I could care less if the thing turns out to perform and hold up as well as the MHI EVO3. The fact remains that vendors are buying them cheaper, selling them for the same price, and in the process fooling some people into thinking they're getting a real EVO3.

Whats wrong with paying the same price as an MHI turbo if this thing really does perfrom as good as or better than the MHI unit? I cant comment on performance of the China GT, because I dont have one, but if it truely did perform just like an MHI EVO3 16G, then you are paying the same price and getting the porting and flapper upgrade for free. Sounds like a deal.... (dont forget, I said IF it performed well)

Consider this: If Bailey, Banks, and Biddle started to buy fake Rolexes for half of what real ones cost, then sold them as real ones for the same price, then when some people caught on they claimed they didn't know - even though there was a subtle indication such as a different stamping

haha, with Rolex, you are paying alot for the name. With a MHI turbo, you are paying for product. If the fake Rolex was of the same quality and time-telling performance, then what would it matter?

In my experience, knock-off products dont hold up and last for a fraction of the time of the real thing. Only time will tell if the China GT is worth the purchase. Hopefully someone can offer us some test data on this thing.....

 

[Injected]

are you an attorney? if not you very well know how to speak like one hey thank for post

Thanks. I majored in Management Information Systems (BBA), minored in International Business, and have a certificate in Intrapreneurship (not entrepreneurship). I’m hoping to start my MBA soon. The way I see it, the more school, the higher the pay justification, the more money for parts

I deleted everything that was off topic. Discuss the turbos, not economics. If I have to start deleting stuff again, I will lock this. Consider yourselves warned.

Thanks. I agree, as I said earlier in this thread, that there was a lot of off topic economic discussion. Still I think that if this thread is shut down, there will be several that take its place, making it harder to sort through the information.

Still no word from anyone who has bought one? No dyno sheets? No compressor maps? Where is everyone?

 

[cuttheduck]

Hold up, How do we know these aren't Chinese made crap turbos. Someone telling me they are made in Taiwan doesn't seem like proof considering I was also told these were 100% Mitsubishi turbos..Turbochargers.com still says

This Evo 3 Big 16G turbo is sold also as a GT model. Both turbos have smaller turbine scroll for quicker spool up. The GT turbo at $580.00 is the same turbo with the additions of a full port job and 34 mm waste gate port and flapper disc.

I was also told these were made in the same factory as mitsubishi turbos. Because mitsu, "moved there turbo building operations to china".

Also, MHI from Japan has moved their turbo building operations to, guess where? China. These turbos that are in question are built in the same factory as the MHI turbos are, in China. At this point in time it doesn't matter which turbo you get, the old MHI EVO3 or the new GT, they are built in the same place.

I called Turbchargers.com again.
I also checked on the availability of these EVO3GT's. Turbochargers.com has a contract with the company direct in China. They (Turbochargers) had this company in China, that builds the MHI turbos too, build this turbo custom for them. This let them go around buying them direct from MHI for more money.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167952&page=4&pp=25&highlight=evo+16g+GT%2A

I then found an article that said mitsu increased the size of their turbo building unit in japan and they have no chinese factory. You can find this arguement in the last "16g gt" thread. So now the story changes again and these are made in taiwan now, it seems like it just keeps changing. Japan, china, taiwan????

I thought zhy-turbo company OUT OF CHINA is the manufacturer. Their website list mitsu knockoffs, they specialize in knockoffs, and they want to sell me a 16g knockoff with a flapper!

So SBR sends a 16g to zhy-turbo as shown on that previous link, doesn't like the quality and decides to not start selling them. Now that same chinese company sells 16g knockoffs and I'm supposed to believe there some highly engineered piece from Taiwain?

233-1 ShiQiao Road
FengCheng City
118100
CN

Hmmm, same address

From Zhy-Turbo.com http://zhy-turbo.com/index-aboutus.htm

Address in China(Main Company):
FengCheng City
LiaoNong Province
118100

So what else does this fine company say

Our company is a large professional turbocharger manufacturer of China. Resorting to the power, credit and special resource we owned, we have made great achievement.Our turbocharger model is more than 1500 and we assure that every parts of turbocharger are produced by ourselves!
Our factory is very large including seven workshops and one product testing center. According to WTO rules, we would like to find some responsible customers, wholesalers, the companies that are good at combining mechanics and electric and so on for cooperation in order to form an management system. We expect you to join!
We have the ability to make custom-built turbocharger and similar products. What we need is only a sample. Normally it can be finished in 1 month. No charge for matrix and custom-built fees! However we will provide the new product we built in the lowest price! This is our promise, and this is our power. We heartily hope you can catch the chance and believe that, we will be the most dependable partners in marketing economics world!

Well surely this is a mistake as the 16g knockoff turbo is made in Taiwan.


Theres no way this chinese knockoff factory striving for the "cheapest price" would sell a 16g w/ flapper. I don't clearly see it marked on their website.

But wait, theres more

Lets see what I have in my inbox from Febuary

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:36:53 +0800 (CST)
From: Send an Instant Message "Christina" [email protected] Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book
Subject: Re: Question regarding evo III 16g GT turbo
To: "--------" <[email protected]>
Dear ---------

Thanks for your E-mail.

About the MITSUBISHI turbocharger you saw, we have exported them worldwidely. Most of our customers are importer&exporter companies, so maybe that is the reason why you can find our product from some venders in US.

The minimum quantity of your order is 1 unit. Before you placing any order, you can buy 1 sample first for testing . We will provide them by DHL or UPS so that you can get them quickly.

Please feel free to contact us anytime. To our customer, we will definitely support you to do your business . Expect a long cooperation with you.

Best wishes,

Yours Haitao Zhou

ZHY Turbocharger Manufacture Co. Ltd

Then I get

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:18:12 +0800 (CST)
From: Send an Instant Message "Christina" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Question regarding evo III 16g GT turbo
To: "-------" <[email protected]>
Dear ------:

Thanks for your email.
Mitsubishi 16g have wastegate. This turbo called TD05H. we built it ourselves. If we dont have what you need, if you have sample, we can make them for you.
Thanks
Regards
Christina

So whats my point.
A 16g turbo was sent to china for "reverse engineering". This chinese company now makes 16g knockoffs. 16g knockoffs hit market and are passed off as the real thing at first, and still are sold in VERY misleading terms. Now, after being lied to once, i'm told these are being made in taiwan, as in turbochargers.com OWN WORDS

Again, I say Taiwan , not China . Mainland China indeed has a bad reputation for turbo quality, while Taiwan has a reputation for being the best quality manufacturing in Asia .

So the million dollar question is:
By some fluke is there a turbo manufacturer making knockoff 16gs not only in china, but an entirely different company doing the same thing in Taiwan at the same exact time? If there isn't, then these turbos are junk plain and simple. Chinese turbo=junk, its not even worth arguing. Now, if we can get some decent proof that these are, in fact, precision Taiwanese made, then the jury's still out. The timing just seems very suspicious.

-BTW, these will be on ebay for $275 in a year, If not i'll start dormroomturbos.com and make sure that happens

 

[cuttheduck]

Just for the record, Im not trying to bash any shop. I've dealt with all mentioned and was happy. I tried to use as many direct qoutes and facts as possible instead of "he said, she said".

 

[ShapeGSX]

Whats wrong with paying the same price as an MHI turbo if this thing really does perfrom as good as or better than the MHI unit? I cant comment on performance of the China GT, because I dont have one, but if it truely did perform just like an MHI EVO3 16G, then you are paying the same price and getting the porting and flapper upgrade for free. Sounds like a deal.... (dont forget, I said IF it performed well)

A larger flapper is a downgrade, not an upgrade. And the thicker blades on the compressor are a downgrade, too. Where have you been?

 

[ryu]

haha... cuttheduck, your like a dsm investigator!

 

[Jon Lane]

Chinese turbo=junk, its not even worth arguing.

I tried to use as many direct qoutes and facts as possible instead of "he said, she said".

I don't think you know what you're trying to say. We're right back to proofs by assertion: Chinese products are crap because you say they are. And around and around we go.

I'd suggest you get to know 2005 Chinese industry before making nonsensical blanket claims like this. And I'd further suggest that somebody ascertain that there are, in fact, no Chinese parts in the MHI turbos. Wouldn't even remotely surprise me to learn that a turbo that sells for $550 in the US after the usual importing and markups was partly or mostly Chinese origin.

Consider a $550 steet price for the gennie Mits EVOIII 16. Assume a meager $175 reseller profit. Assume a $75 distributor profit. A cost-to-import, clear customs, warehouse, and wholesale ship of $50/unit. And an initial profit to Mits of at least $100.

Do we really think an original on-the-dock cost of $150 for a genuine Mits EVO III 16 is realistic for an entirely Japanese cast, forged, machined, assembled, packed, and warehoused turbo? On the most expensive real estate on earth and by a labor force that probably makes not less than $25usd/hr.

No, it's absolutely not impossible -- Mits is part of a very sophisticated manufacturing method. But is it reasonable to make unfounded blanket assumptions that "because" Chinese products are completely shoddy, that all Mits products are therefore automatically not just because we're damn sure they're entirely Japanese?

How about this scenario. Like a gazillion other international brands Mits specs and imports component parts running, in this case, say $75/unit, landed. Then they assemble, package, and warehouse (even though there's no financial incentive to do so whatsoever) at a cost of another $50. Now we're within $25 of the scenario above.

Or maybe MHI just imports complete genuine turbos. At say, $150 per, which would be about right for a Chinese-market complete turbo. And then they sell 'em via the supply chain above.

I just don't see a precision turbocharger being made entirely in an expensive westernized nation and selling on the street in the US for $550 when there's simply no reason to do so whatsoever.

Meanwhile, all this nonsense about the Chinese not making decent parts is, well, complete nonsense. They're able to do rocket science and nuclear technology and world-leading hydroelectrics and they can't exactly duplicate a little $500 MHI turbo? Come on...

 

[cuttheduck]

Consider a $550 steet price for the gennie Mits EVOIII 16. Assume a meager $175 reseller profit. Assume a $75 distributor profit. A cost-to-import, clear customs, warehouse, and wholesale ship of $50/unit. And an initial profit to Mits of at least $100.

Thats your first mistake. Resellers were making a $175 profit back when the turbos were close to $700. At $550 the reseller profit is less then $50 as they cost almost that much straight from mitsu. They got whored out by people selling them for $20 above cost on ebay. This shows your just guessing. The rest of your post is just speculation on how much Mitsu and the "distributor" take cutbacks on. All of the earlier speculative economic post were already deleted as its just you guessing where mitsu gets their parts from and how much they make. Lets keep this thread open AND TALK ABOUT THE TURBO AT HAND

My point was:

1. A Chinese company specializing in copying others work at the cheapest price possible is now making 16g knockoffs
2. The company is known for shoddy work and is made simply for a bottomline price.
3. Almost anything in the world is now counterfeited and shoddily made in China.
4. This turbo was claimed to be made in China "in the same plant as mitsu turbos", its now claim to be made "in Taiwan".
5. So my only question was, Can we see some proof that this turbo is made in Taiwan, as mainland Chinese turbos "are of poor quality" in T-chargers.com own words.
It very well could be, the timing just seemed very suspicious.

I can't believe you tried to say a Chinese counterfeiter trying to make something by cutting every corner can result in quality because the Chinese can do "rocket science". If you have information about the turbo at hand, then add it, the speculative economic post will get deleted.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Consider a $550 steet price for the gennie Mits EVOIII 16. Assume a meager $175 reseller profit. Assume a $75 distributor profit. A cost-to-import, clear customs, warehouse, and wholesale ship of $50/unit. And an initial profit to Mits of at least $100.

! You think the end seller is making $175 profit?? If that were true, the knock-off would have no reason to exist! It's more like $50-75. And $50/unit to import is way high, too. Assuming a distributor imports a pallet of 50 units, it probably costs about $500 to bring in, including any tariffs/fees/whatever. That's about $10/unit.

I dont care that vendors aren't making enough profit from the real EVO3. Let them figure out a legitimate way to increase their bottom line. They made a conscious decision to start a business, ya'd think they would know how to run it successfully without resorting to the tactics of the guy selling the fake handbags on the corner in NYC by now.

EDIT: I apologize to the guys selling fake handbags. At least you have the dignity to pass the savings along to your customers.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Thats your first mistake. Resellers were making a $175 profit back when the turbos were close to $700. At $550 the reseller profit is less then $50 as they cost almost that much straight from mitsu. They got whored out by people selling them for $20 above cost on ebay.

Bushcur himself was "whoring them out" for $535 on his own web site for the longest time last year. It wasn't just Ebay.

 

[Jon Lane]

Lets keep this thread open AND TALK ABOUT THE TURBO AT HAND
<>
Almost anything in the world is now counterfeited and shoddily made in China.
<>
So my only question was, Can we see some proof that this turbo is made in Taiwan, as mainland Chinese turbos "are of poor quality" in T-chargers.com own words.
<>
I can't believe you tried to say a Chinese counterfeiter trying to make something by cutting every corner can result in quality because the Chinese can do "rocket science".

Still more assumptions...

Anyway, first, I won't put words in TC's mouth -- in their view if Chinese turbos are naturally garbage, then they certainly know more than I do.

So of course I was speculating...and my point? That these asinine comments that Chinese = garbage are insulting, racist, and false. Indeed, keep it about the "turbo at hand" and stop assuming you know what this thing is before the fact.

As I said in my first post, I have no dog in this race; if the "cheap Chinese counterfeit" turns out to be a cheap Chinese counterfeit, so be it. But if it turns out to run neck and neck with the hallowed original, then we'll know that, as is actually already the case across much the board, competitive Chinese ingenuity and capitalism can produce competitive products.