I'm about to give up... Please help!

[SnoopySLR]

Well guys..I still can't get it running. Here is the story.. .please help me!

Timing belt snaps, so I pull the head and put it back together. Now she doesn't want to fire up. I found that 1 & 4 are not firing. First thought, plugs...then wires. Both are good. Then I thought Coil (I've been working from the plug back to the start of the signal). The coil is working perfect. The wire from the ECU to the coil is ok... not shorted out or grounded. The ECU itself is not sending any signal out... so I figured maybe my ECU is bad. I got another one from another DSM'er. The ECU didn't change anything when I swapped.

So now I'm stuck to figure out whats next. I'm 90% sure that the crank and cam pos sensors are good... because coil 2 is getting signal and firing 2 & 3 plugs.

If anyone has any other ideas I'm all ears. Also, if anyone has the wiring diagrams for our cars, I'd like to know what else is involved in our ignition system...

 

[4UH8ERS]

Well guys..I still can't get it running. Here is the story.. .please help me!

Timing belt snaps, so I pull the head and put it back together. Now she doesn't want to fire up. I found that 1 & 4 are not firing. First thought, plugs...then wires. Both are good. Then I thought Coil (I've been working from the plug back to the start of the signal). The coil is working perfect. The wire from the ECU to the coil is ok... not shorted out or grounded. The ECU itself is not sending any signal out... so I figured maybe my ECU is bad. I got another one from another DSM'er. The ECU didn't change anything when I swapped.

So now I'm stuck to figure out whats next. I'm 90% sure that the crank and cam pos sensors are good... because coil 2 is getting signal and firing 2 & 3 plugs.

If anyone has any other ideas I'm all ears. Also, if anyone has the wiring diagrams for our cars, I'd like to know what else is involved in our ignition system...

If you know for a fact that your coil, crank sensor, cam sensor, spark plug wires, plugs, ecu, and relays are good then you need to get out a test light and check all your connectors and make sure they are all working correctly.

 

[XMasta19]

No need to quit bro...if you have been checking on here any bit randomly, you'd know the whole dealio with my car...and how it always works out in the end

Are you throwing any codes from cranking? Have you checked for injector pulse? Was the ecu you tried from the same year model? Does the fuel pump prime when you turn the key to on? Have you grounded a plug to the valve cover or somewhere to check for spark? Have you tried to jumper the fuel pump and asd relays then cranking? Possibly the ignition switch? LMK how she runs after you check all that

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Here's a diagram of our ignition systems...
Excuse the size; it wouldn't be readable if it were any smaller.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I can't really offer any advice, since it seems like you thoroughly checked your system. Xavier offered some good places to investigate, although if you're just not getting spark in two cylinders, you'll probably be wasting your time looking at the fuel system and ASD relay.

Given the symptoms, I would have to say there is still a problem either with the coil or the ECU. The fact that you're getting any spark at all tells us that the CPS and CMPS are most likely functioning.

 

[Talon ESI-T]

timing, check your timing.




Let me fill you in on a overlooked secret.

Remove the Valve cover, rotate the engine until you see two holes in the cams between cylinder 1 and cylinder 2. Thoe two holes will accept a 1/4 extension. Get 2 extensions and insert them. Those 2 holes should be perfectly perpendicular to the head when the #1 cylinder is at TDC.

To find TDC at cylinder 1, remove all spark plugs. Get a long 1/4 extension or even a small piece of 1/4 steel rod, about 12 inches long. insert the rod into the cylinder from the spark plug hole and feel straight down for the piston. Now rotate the crank slowlytill you find TDC. You want the rod to be at the highest position and you can see where the rod will raise and drop as the crank rolls over. This is very accurate to the timing mark on the crank sprocket. Now check your cam holes as described above.

If the holes are both pointed down then rotate the crank one full turn to bring them t the top. Obviously dont rotate the crank with the extensions in the cams. It may be easier to have a friedn rotate the crank. If you have the top of the timing cover removed, the 18mm cam gear bolt works great for rotating the crank slowly and finding TDC..

Terry

 

[SnoopySLR]

Thanks Paul... I'll look at that in a min.

As for the timing Terry... I don't see what that would do with making it NOT fire... that would just make it fire at the wrong time. When I say they aren't firing, I put a plug in the end of the wires and grounded it... and get nothing.

 

[XMasta19]

If your timing isn't close enough, I don't think you'll get any spark. Don't take my word on that though, I'm a new guy round here

 

[Talon ESI-T]

If your timing isn't close enough, I don't think you'll get any spark. Don't take my word on that though, I'm a new guy round here

absolutely correct sir

 

[SnoopySLR]

Try and explain that to me... cause I've never heard that. It doesn't make sense to me. Why would the marks being off make it NOT fire... it should just make it fire at the wrong time. And also it wouldn't make only 2 not fire either... Correct me if I'm wrong

I DOUBT thats it...cause my marks are PERFECT... but I'm gonna try the 1/4 extension trick sometime.

 

[XMasta19]

...cam and crank position sensors not happy equals no sparky

 

[SnoopySLR]

Maybe, but that still doesn't explain only one coil not getting signal to fire. If they were off only one none would be firing

 

[Talon ESI-T]

All depends on what the ECU "sees". Our ECU's are much smarter than you think. It is possible.

Terry

 

[SnoopySLR]

You guys keep posting things without evidence... If you can tell my how mechanical timing would mess this up, I'm all ears... It would give me more things to look for if its true.

But as it is, I don't think its possible. Until you prove me wrong, I'm gonna regard that as wrong information. The wiring diagram Paul posted has given me a few things to look for... so we'll see what happens. Time to bust out the good ol Fluk again! Damn I wish I had a DBR3

 

[Talon ESI-T]

You want a pissing match then go find it elsewhere, i dont care if you want to acdept how our ECU's operate or not.

The ECU has the ability to determine crank position and cam position. If the alignment of the two does not meet the degree'd spec that is written the the motorola chip (no i wont tell you what family of chip thats in it either) inside the ECU then the ECU will take secondary measures as a protection. This does involve cutting spark, fuel or partial of either. You lack of search is rather becomming because these same issues have been discussed by myself as well as many others. Is thsi your problem? maybe or maybe not but it is not somethign that should be ruled out due to ignorance. I used to love dealing with customers like yourself who tell me how to fix your car.

If your going to throw mud then make sure your information is accurate. a DBR3 does not exist. However a DRB-III does and it will not allow you to do very much unless you have been trained in its operation, I have. DRB-III's are used most frequently to write the Vin and mileage into the ECU when it is new. Once written the data cannot be altered. A DRB3 is useless without the PC counterparts needed to maintain the up to date files required for operation.

A traditional scanner will only tell you whether or not you have crank and cam signal. Many ECU's will have an alignment issue with the cam and crank but not throw a code. This is why many people have a hard time getting the 2.4l motor to run with a 2.0 head.

You must understand my aggravation because it is apparent that most people just want the answers and I am tired of just handing out info. In my opinion, if you want to fix your car then make the effort to learn how it operates and do some basic research. Because of the 2.4L swap this info has been covered inside and out.

Terry

 

[bullettdsm]

Snoop, just wanted to jump on to let you know that it's all going to be OK . I would really like to add something to help you but, to be honest, all the good answers are taken . The check list, as I see, has been covered by X or 4UH8ers. Although the mechanical aspect of timing affecting the no spark situation does not make sense to me, the way these new fangled computery things work, I guess it could be a possibility (as he scratches his head in bewilderment).
Seriously, I did have a recent problem with my idle. I asked on the board and still could not figure it out. So I did what I usually do in that situation, I sat in the corner and cried for an hour then I went through every connection on the engine and reconnected everyone while looking for a break. Though I did not find a break, it did fix the problem. Do not know which connection (because they all seemed to be connected up fine) but one of them was the culprit.

Good luck and hang in there cause I hate to have to drive all the way to (where the hell do you live? Michigan) to have to kick yo....never mind that's just too far

MB

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Edit: Nevermind. If your not going to take time to do any research i am not going to take the time to answer why? Good luck.

BTW DBR3 does not exist. try DRB-III and with it i can tell you would still be lost.

 

[SnoopySLR]

Oh SO sorry about the typo there buddy... DRB3 or DRB-III if I have to type it the same way as you.

And if your pissed cause someone asks you to expain your response using technical information, then maybe you shouldn't be posting at all.

Although you need to chill out a little bit, thank you for some of that information. I don't know everything about the 420a ECU.

And I'm not telling you how to fix my car... so I don't know what your talking about....

 

[mirkoelek]

Oh SO sorry about the typo there buddy... DRB3 or DRB-III if I have to type it the same way as you.

And if your pissed cause someone asks you to expain your response using technical information, then maybe you shouldn't be posting at all.

Although you need to chill out a little bit, thank you for some of that information. I don't know everything about the 420a ECU.

And I'm not telling you how to fix my car... so I don't know what your talking about....

Did you take your crank sensor off and the crank pulley while you doing what ever you were doing.... very important so i could ask you another question .... I feel your pain....You know that people here will help you out....Most of the time is something very stupid that you cant believe you forgot to put it on or put it right way.... I can see that you know what are you doing, and probaly you rushed to put everything back together and you screw up on one simply thing...It happend to everybody... this is from my personal experience... Dont give up...you'll get to it

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Mirko, i think i know where you are going with this. Unlike the GSX, our crank sensor is not behind the crank pully. So we cant remove the crank pulley and install it out of time, sort o speak. Our Crak sensor is inserted into the block and reads the index marks on the crank between cylinder 1 and cylinder 2. Our crank pulley doesnt have a keyway or anything, it just presses on and has the main bolt to secure it. Hope that clears gives you a clear picture.

Terry

 

[mirkoelek]

Mirko, i think i know where you are going with this. Unlike the GSX, our crank sensor is not behind the crank pully. So we cant remove the crank pulley and install it out of time, sort o speak. Our Crak sensor is inserted into the block and reads the index marks on the crank between cylinder 1 and cylinder 2. Our crank pulley doesnt have a keyway or anything, it just presses on and has the main bolt to secure it. Hope that clears gives you a clear picture.

Terry

All right, i havent seen NT...Ok anyway i just wanted to throw something in...but i guess i misscalculated

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Your thinking is right along with what i tried to explain just slightly different because our setup is not quite the same. Good thinking


Terry

 

[XMasta19]

So have you actually tried just disconnecting and reconnecting both the cam and crank sensors, or just assumed they were good? If you searched at all and found my issue, my crank position sensor was in it's socket but not actually plugged in all the way...after many weeks of dissapointment and troubleshooting, this problem wasn't found until I jacked the car and actually went under there just to check. All of my searching also yielded me the fact that some guys would fix their no starts by simply unbolting the cam sensor from the head, wiping it down so to speak, then just plugging it back in. Now I'm not saying either of these are your issues, but you gotta be sure to check every possibility and not just what makes perfect sense to you

Trust me, there are a few of us on here that really know what it's like to not drive our cars for a LONG period of time...and to find out that half of that time was wasted because of such a stupid issue

Now if you want my freshly built motor that runs great, you just let me know and I'll come take that targa top off ## hands

 

[mirkoelek]

Your thinking is right along with what i tried to explain just slightly different because our setup is not quite the same. Good thinking


Terry

I've got lost and i got into this forum, sorry guys.... I hope this guy will find a problem...

good stuff

 

[SnoopySLR]

ok, well, I worked on it tonight and found out a few things that are STUMPING me.

1st, I'm not getting spark on coil1 (cyl 1&4), but I am on coil2 (2&3). I took the wires for coil signals and switched them to make sure the coil was good. It is, it just flipped the problem, so I put it back to the way it should be.

2nd, you would expect the coil signal to be bad... but its not. Both the Brown wire(for coil2) and the Black/Blue wire (for coil1) are putting out 1.75amps and 9volts.

How on earth can the coil be good, both wires be putting out the same signal, and only half the cylinders be firing...

Please, anyone help. I don't want to get rid of my baby... but I can't go another year without driving it.

 

[totaleclipse_05]

So it's been sitting for the last 7 months?