I'll never trust an alignment shop again.

[TrevorS]

My guess is the ratio of camber to toe adjustment in the upper arm eccentric is on the order of 3:1 to 4:1.

Just took a look at the rear arms and 4:1 is probably pretty close (photo below), You can see that as negative camber is increased, it simultaneously toes out. When lowering, it's not hard to run out of toe adjustment.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[jtmcinder]

YUP.

KIA in town was offering free alignments, so I ran down there and took my bumper off. They pull it up, and immediately start adjusting toe.. in the front first.

Tried to argue with him telling him he needs to start from the rear, and he was all "I've been doing this for years blah blah.."

REALLY?

Why do you think that you have to do the rear first? It's a car, not a Kardashian.

 

[RamenPride]

And I forgot that I also need a couch..so smart strings could be even further off than I thought.

Craigslist - you can get one for cheap, or even free! Of course that's only if you're able to block out pictures in your mind of who might have previously sat on it and/or what could have happened on it

Why do you think that you have to do the rear first? It's a car, not a Kardashian.

 

[Abe'sGST]

thats crazy man, good thing you checked after somebody else's work

 

[DSMnoobsause]

Why do you think that you have to do the rear first? It's a car, not a Kardashian.

True it's not one of them. But being a BMW tech for 10 plus years we always adjust the back so we can accurately adjust the front.

 

[jtmcinder]

Why do you think that adjusting one end will have any effect on the opposite end?

 

[DeadlyScone]

I don't know suspension that much, but is that bolt supposed to be torqued to the left? I have no idea what i'am looking at. If someone wants to educate me

 

[snowborder714]

The first picture is showing the inner (right side) and outer (left side) tie rods. The nut that you see on the inner tie rod should be locked up against the outer tie rod to keep them from threading/unthreading from each other.

 

[DeadlyScone]

The nut that you see on the inner tie rod should be locked up against the outer tie rod.

Thats what i thought, just wasn't sure. Thanks.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

True it's no one of them. But being a BMW tech for 10 plus years we always adjust the back so we can accurately adjust the front.

Yeah, he needs to clarify his joke. He knows that. Problem is, he asking a lot from us "nitwits" for us to use our heads and come to conclusions on our own. "Set back", "Thrust Angle".


So, today I ate steak with the Manager of Firestone. He doesn't run a shit-show, despite my accounts. He treated me right and made things right. And then I led him to his own discovery that I've suspected for months (having 9 sheets to browse through in front of me makes for certain moments of insight). The alignment rack needs calibration.

We shot the shit, we talked cars, beer (that didn't go as well), geology (nor did that) but gambling was a hit. Nice guy, has "difters" who come in 2x a month to get their street alignment and then their "race" alignment the following weekend. He's down with all that, he knows car guys are nuts and he just says "OK!" when guys like me come in looking for more than your average bubble level.

If I were completely honest, I'd still have to tell you guys that I personally talked to the tech before we went to lunch and I was confident. When I picked up the car and read my sheet I looked at the Manager, grinned, and went outside. My grin morphed into a hideous laugh to which other patrons took notice.
I was soon met outside. "I see laughing.. what's up?" The manager spoke.

Sure enough, the rear eccentrics were lop-sided AGAIN after explicit instruction and a sympathetic response from the tech - since he had claimed to have owned many similar setups.
Something else also changed today. Now, apparently, my RR toe arm is frozen and that the LR cam moves freely. Well if you've been paying attention, this is cannot be true for a number of reasons.

I went in for -2/-1 today with zero toe up front and I wanted +0.05 in the rear cause I'm cool like that. I got -1.8 camber up front. The guy claimed I was out of adjustment... yeah we'll see about that. These arms are good for -3.5* or something large and I'm pretty sure orientation is correct, so like I said, we'll see.
The rear is where it always gets more interesting. I got my -1 camber but toe was waaaay the eff out at -0.11* and -.07*. And of course I was told some lame story about adjustment being maxed out and that the toe is frozen etc.

Long story short? I sent it back in and in 15min I had the same as above but with -0.05* toe in the rear. Whatever. Good enough.

I'll be crawling underneath to make sure everything is tight and we'll see if those adjusters are any straight .

I guess the best news I have today is that none of the toe adjusters are actually frozen. I believe he can screw up an alignment, royally, but I do believe him if he tells me the cam moves.Surely no one can make THAT type of oversight....surely..

 

[DSMnoobsause]

Why do you think that adjusting one end will have any effect on the opposite end?

well all the alingment machines made today require you to adjust the back first if its out. and then have you move to the front.

Four-Wheel Alignments

There are two main types of 4-wheel alignments. In each case, the technician will place an instrument on all four wheels. In the first type the rear toe and tracking is checked, but all adjustments are made at the front wheels. This is done on vehicles that do not have adjustments on the rear. The second type is a full 4-wheel alignment where the adjustments are first made to true up the rear alignment, then the front is adjusted. A full 4-wheel alignment will cost more than the other type because there is more work involved.

this was taken from
Wheel Alignment A Short Course


if the Back doesn't track with the front then you will have tires issues all around. even if the front is in line the back will still have an effect on all 4 tires. and how the car handles.

 

[TrevorS]

Yeah, he needs to clarify his joke. He knows that. Problem is, he asking a lot from us "nitwits" for us to use our heads and come to conclusions on our own. "Set back", "Thrust Angle".

Yeah, thrust angle was what I was thinking. A four wheel alignment has to take into account how the front and rear play together.

Now, apparently, my RR toe arm is frozen and that the LR cam moves freely. Well if you've been paying attention, this is cannot be true for a number of reasons.

Generally speaking, that can definitely be true, but I guess I didn't track that part of your discussion !

Long story short? I sent it back in and in 15min I had the same as above but with -0.05* toe in the rear. Whatever. Good enough.

I'll be crawling underneath to make sure everything is tight and we'll see if those adjusters are any straight .

I guess the best news I have today is that none of the toe adjusters are actually frozen. I believe he can screw up an alignment, royally, but I do believe him if he tells me the cam moves.Surely no one can make THAT type of oversight....surely..

Glad it worked out dude, but I'd definitely find a different outfit for next time !

 

[BurrowZ]

Why do you think that you have to do the rear first? It's a car, not a Kardashian.

I should mention he also failed to check tire pressure beforehand.

Also, good luck getting your aftermarket suspension adjustments (camber kits, adjustable control arms etc) adjusted by alignment shops. Unless they're hardened techs, they only do what the Hunter tells them to do. And in our cases, that's just F+R toe. If it says there are no factory adjustments for camber, well guess what? Too f'n bad.

 

[DSMnoobsause]

I should mention he also failed to check tire pressure beforehand.

Also, good luck getting your aftermarket suspension adjustments (camber kits, adjustable control arms etc) adjusted by alignment shops. Unless they're hardened techs, they only do what the Hunter tells them to do. And in our cases, that's just F+R toe. If it says there are no factory adjustments for camber, well guess what? Too f'n bad.

I completely agree, other tech's at the dealer didn't care as long as they seen green on the Hunter shit boxes ha ha.

 

[BurrowZ]

I completely agree, other tech's at the dealer didn't care as long as they seen green on the Hunter shit boxes ha ha.

They're neat machines, don't get me wrong.

But not Bibles.

 

[jtmcinder]

well all the alingment machines made today require you to adjust the back first if its out.

So the reason that you think that you have to align the rear first is because a machine told you to do it in this order.

I'm gunna go out a limb here and guess that your mother's name isn't Sarah Connor.

 

[turboglenn]

I'm glad i have ONE alignment tech who owns his own sinclair, lets me be under the rrack with him. lets me watch everythikng and help if i want. as for aftermarket ball joints and cvontrol arms with added adjustment he not only knows of snd asks if i have them before hand on anything lowered or setup for racing but offers them through his shop and knows how to set them... if he gets a frozen adjuster he works his best to free it or let me free it up and or replace whatever needs done right on his rack..and everytime i pay...wait for it 45 to 65 bucks tops!! and sometimes he spends 2-3 hours on my cars....

he also dials all the slack oput of the rack and much more...thank god for my alignment guy

but really you can only blame corporate america for hiring the cheapest labor they can get to keep profits high and not paying a good tech what he's worth... I tried to work for 2 major "tire/alignment" shops and they paid so low that i told the one of them that now i know why half the work they put out is sub-par work iu've had ti re-do (seriousely have redone many brake jobs and other regular machanic work from friends taking cars to them and then coming to me saying something wasn't right afterwards from their 10 dollar oil vhange and flat 30 dollar brake jobs)

 

[TrevorS]

Also, good luck getting your aftermarket suspension adjustments (camber kits, adjustable control arms etc) adjusted by alignment shops. Unless they're hardened techs, they only do what the Hunter tells them to do.

Is it ever realistic to expect an alignment tech to fiddle with non-factory adjustments, or even fool with inoperative factory ones? It took me roughly four alignments, three Ingalls bolts, and a pile of "fix the adjuster" work to solve my alignment problems. None of them ever told me anything about what was actually wrong, only gave me print-outs that I had to interpret into physical issues -- the adjuster issues were my problem to detect and repair, the bolts were my problem to adjust. They take your $90, give you a print-out, and then it's up to you, at least, that's my experience ! Still, I got where I wanted to get, just took a little work and imagination !

 

[IHeartMyHonda]

So the reason that you think that you have to align the rear first is because a machine told you to do it in this order.

I'm gunna go out a limb here and guess that your mother's name isn't Sarah Connor.

You have obviously never used a Hunter alignment machine. In a four-wheel alignment that compensates for thrust angle, the rear toe ALWAYS affects front toe. The computer tells you to set rear toe first because it is the correct way to do it.

 

[dnhieu]

i have never personally done this but have seen it done. it really doesnt surprise me with the way the mechanics industry is setup. ive pulled cars on the rack a few times with this done...

 

[DSMnoobsause]

So the reason that you think that you have to align the rear first is because a machine told you to do it in this order.

I'm gunna go out a limb here and guess that your mother's name isn't Sarah Connor.

Ok I see. Youre one of those guys that knows everything and has no more time to learn. If you knew anything about suspention and alignments you wouldn't be trying to prove a point. O and what was that again?

 

[jtmcinder]

OK. We're getting closer to an answer to my question. I asked why you have to do the rear first and the answer appears to be that rear toe can affect front toe in some way. I assume that the story is that the influence is either completely one-way (i.e., rear affects front, but front does not affect rear) or that the influence is so much stronger in this particular direction (i.e., rear affecting front) that the opposite direction is ignored.

I don't see any reason for any of that to be true, but at least I have an answer to my question.

The new question, then, is why does rear toe affect front toe? One possible sub-version of the story answers this by saying that the machine is programmed to "compensate" for non-zero thrust angle (which is a rear-toe issue) when setting the target values for front toe. For all I know, there could be machines that do this for 2G DSMs. No machine - including Hunters - that I've used does this, but I haven't done an alignment for several years; maybe the software has been updated. In any event, is that the claim? I know that the read-out values for front toe do not depend on rear toe. But that doesn't rule out the idea that the machine is programmed to set a different target values for front toe depending on the current values of rear toe (either separately by wheel or combined as thrust angle). Is that your claim?

 

[BoredDSM]

OK. We're getting closer to an answer to my question. I asked why you have to do the rear first and the answer appears to be that rear toe can affect front toe in some way. I assume that the story is that the influence is either completely one-way (i.e., rear affects front, but front does not affect rear) or that the influence is so much stronger in this particular direction (i.e., rear affecting front) that the opposite direction is ignored.

I don't see any reason for any of that to be true, but at least I have an answer to my question.

The new question, then, is why does rear toe affect front toe? One possible sub-version of the story answers this by saying that the machine is programmed to "compensate" for non-zero thrust angle (which is a rear-toe issue) when setting the target values for front toe. For all I know, there could be machines that do this for 2G DSMs. No machine - including Hunters - that I've used does this, but I haven't done an alignment for several years; maybe the software has been updated. In any event, is that the claim? I know that the read-out values for front toe do not depend on rear toe. But that doesn't rule out the idea that the machine is programmed to set a different target values for front toe depending on the current values of rear toe (either separately by wheel or combined as thrust angle). Is that your claim?

It is indeed true. The old Jim Beam alignment racks I've used never compensated front toe based on the rear. On the new hunter alignment racks they do base the front toe off the rear unless you go into the option of realtime data. At that point you can see the front toe is actually in spec. Once you go to the compensated screen and adjust the rear, the front toe will fall back into spec but in live data remains the same. Sometimes though front toe is adjusted first to get an accurate caster sweep if total toe is greater than 2 degrees.

 

[jtmcinder]

That's interesting. I'd love to know more of what is going on with this "compensation" stuff; I've never even heard of it. The way I've always done is alignments in in what you're calling "realtime" - I am always seeing exactly how all four wheels are set. From this I know that the one-way relationship that I hinted at above is exactly backwards: small changes to rear alignment settings have pretty much zero effect on the front, but changes to the front can alter the rear. And I know why this happens: because front wheelrates (i.e., springrates x motion ratio) are much higher than rear (on front-heavy cars that I drive), so changes in alignment in the rear rarely shift the chassis enough to alter the front, but changes to the front can alter the chassis enough to affect the rear. In particular, changes to camber can change the corner-weighting enough to transfer to the far corner and alter alignment via bump-toe. Therefore - and this is the key to why I've been asking all these questions - I have always done the front of my car first.

(sorry about typing ... borrowed computer)

 

[BoredDSM]

It isn't so much to alter or shift the chassis but more to do with thrust angle. When the Hunter represenative was explaining it, I took it as cars with no rear toe adjustments or with eccentric adjustments that can easily max out would "dog track" and cause uneven tire wear. The idea was that thrustline is based off the rear and is a better dictation of the straight-ahead position of the front wheels.