IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[kpt4321]

The flow problem with a stock SMIC can be avoided by flowing the charge air across the core, the way ambient air would in a normal setup. Then you put the water through the core as the air would normally flow.

The cross-sectional area and restriction of air flowing through the core this way is no more than you would see with an upgraded SMIC or a proper FMIC. It doesn't take a lot of volume/air for an air to water intercooler to work correctly.

 

[kpt4321]

Air to water ICs are far superior to stock and FMICs. If you can do it correctly an AWIC will

I don't agree with this at all. I think that which is the better choice is totally situational, but for a street car air to air is almost always going to be the better choice. In fact, the only time I see air to water being a clear winner is when you can run sub-ambient water through the core.

reduce intake volume

Intake volume has a very very small effect on lag, and zero effect on overall power production. There's no reason, really, to worry about the effect different intercoolers with have on it.

prevent heat soak from the radiator

True!

decrease under hood temps

This is debatable. Are you saying because the air entering through the front of the car is no longer heated by the FMIC?

In reality, if the intake is properly located out of the engine bay, why does underhood temperature matter that much?

decrease intake pressure loss (the ic is smaller and the piping has fewer turns)

A couple extra mandrel belt turns has negligible effect on airflow, especially considering that the air has to go through an intercooler and a throttle body. I doubt the gains to be seen from this are something you can substantiate, especially in the realm of normal vehicles.

reduce the need for wired fans

With a proper radiator (even a stocker in good condition) and proper ducting at the front of the car, there is no reason you will need any more than the stock radiator fan. When it's less than 80 degrees out, I need to turn my fan off or my coolant temp gets too low, and that is with a stock radiator and a HUGE FMIC.

reduce weight for the same ammount of heat soak ability (water has a higher specific heat)

How do you reduce weight? Instead of one heat exchanger, you need two, and then you also need a tank full of water, a pump assembly, and a bunch of lines full of water.

My FMIC can't weigh more than 5-10 pounds, I don't think. A gallon of water weighs that much, and you'll need more than that.

AWICs are far superior to anything else if done correctly. The problem is doing them correctly.

They are definately not far superior, and I think not even superior in some situations.

Like I said, I can think of times when I would want one, and a lot of times when I would not. I don't screw around with my car, and I run a FMIC.

 

[kpt4321]

for a street application that small radiator will not be efficient enough to cool the water in the system down.

Mark brings up an interesting point.

In a lot of situations, you see air to water intercooler systems using damned small heat exchangers at the front of the car. The ONLY reason they can get away with this, is because the system of a whole contains enough water that the heat sink mass of the system keeps it from getting too hot on a short pull.

If you want to actually be able to get rid of the heat created by a medium power turbo car (300 whp) while making a pull, without a net heat increase in the intercooler water system, you need a pretty freaking big core to get rid of the heat at the front of the car. I'm talking a Civic size radiator, which is about half the width of the DSM radiator. Not a small core, for sure.

If you don't go that big, you will have a net heat increase in the system. This is fine for a dyno pull or a drag pull, but the longer you stay in the throttle the hotter everything gets.

 

[markgholland]

This was my heat exchanger... I tend to get boost happy, so I was still worried this wasn't going to be big enough. BYW, this is a stock heat excanger from a ford lightning.

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[gixrman]

Does'nt water have 4x the cooling of air? What i mean is water can radiate heat 4x faster than air. I know AWIC's are mostly used on rally cars for heat soak, correct? For constant full throttle running. Your only going to be able to lower the temp to outside ambiant temp. anyway so which does it faster and is the most effeciant? sorry for the sp.

 

[markgholland]

Does'nt water have 4x the cooling of air? What i mean is water can radiate heat 4x faster than air. I know AWIC's are mostly used on rally cars for heat soak, correct? For constant full throttle running. Your only going to be able to lower the temp to outside ambiant temp. anyway so which does it faster and is the most effeciant? sorry for the sp.

First of all, you are aware that your spelling is off, so why not change it?

Water can cool four times as much, but keeping that water cool is difficult, hence the current argument of adequate heat exchanger size... I don't think that it would be a good idea for a rally car to have a water-to-air intercooler for the same reason that it's not practical on a street car... Drag cars can pack the reservoir full of ice and keep the water cool, on a rally car, that is not really an option for any period of time.

I hate to say this, but if a air-to-air intercooler is good enough for Shep to go 8.70's on, or any other fast guys for that matter, it's good enough for about 90 percent of people, myself included.

And for those who missed what Kyle said about modifying the stock SMIC to reverse the flow, read it again. It's a real pita!!!

~Mark

Oh yea, for those who think they are going to save money, you're wrong.

 

[kpt4321]

Does'nt water have 4x the cooling of air? What i mean is water can radiate heat 4x faster than air. I know AWIC's are mostly used on rally cars for heat soak, correct? For constant full throttle running. Your only going to be able to lower the temp to outside ambiant temp. anyway so which does it faster and is the most effeciant? sorry for the sp.

Huh?

Used for heat soak? What does that mean? No car uses a certain intercooler to create heat soak.

Then, you have a sentence that says "for full throttle running." My answer to that is, yes.

Yeah, you can only lower the temps to ambient, unless you use ice water and no heat exachanger at the front of the car.

This whole thread is about which does it faster and more efficient. Speed is not really an issue, if the heat transfer gets done it doesn't really matter how quickly.

I tend to maintain that both systems have the same efficiency potential.

 

[gixrman]

Huh?

Used for heat soak? What does that mean? No car uses a certain intercooler to create heat soak.

Then, you have a sentence that says "for full throttle running."

What I was trying to say is that AWIC's are used to PREVENT heatsoak in rally cars. I know that A/A is better for drag racing and I thought A/W was prefered for rally. Since 99% of us use are cars for daily's which is the better option?i.e. sitting traffic will cause a A/A to heat soak faster than a A/W cooler? Damn you guys are harsh thats why i'm asking. Just looking for answers. I like to make things so I guess I'll make my own setup and then post my findings.

 

[kpt4321]

No, A/A is not necessarily better for drag racing. The best intercooler depends on more specific circumstances than that.

For a street driven car, A/A will almost always be best.

 

[markgholland]

What I was trying to say is that AWIC's are used to PREVENT heatsoak in rally cars. I know that A/A is better for drag racing and I thought A/W was prefered for rally. Since 99% of us use are cars for daily's which is the better option?i.e. sitting traffic will cause a A/A to heat soak faster than a A/W cooler? Damn you guys are harsh thats why i'm asking. Just looking for answers. I like to make things so I guess I'll make my own setup and then post my findings.

Not trying to be harsh...

Why don't you read the links I posted above... all of this has been covered many times.
~Mark

 

[fastalon]

look in my profile, the air to water pic is of my friends setup, he runs it daily just runs his pump with the water running through it from time ot time he says.

 

[gixrman]

markgholland-
I've read those treads and have looked at many web pages on AWIC's just looking for some personel experience with AWIC's. Thanks for the links though. I know you can set the pumps up to run buy temp. or WOT. I think this would be a great sleeper mod.

 

[kpt4321]

Why is it a great sleeper mod? You end up with a shiny heat exchanger in the front of the car with a FMIC or A/W, and you can paint both of them black if you want.

 

[92awddsm]

What I was trying to say is that AWIC's are used to PREVENT heatsoak in rally cars. I know that A/A is better for drag racing and I thought A/W was prefered for rally. Since 99% of us use are cars for daily's which is the better option?i.e. sitting traffic will cause a A/A to heat soak faster than a A/W cooler? Damn you guys are harsh thats why i'm asking. Just looking for answers. I like to make things so I guess I'll make my own setup and then post my findings.

Actually, most rally cars use a fm a/a ic.

The air to air will not heat soak sitting in traffic. The only way it will heat soak if if you are boosting which also means you should be moving which cools th a/a ic.If you heat soak an ic in stop and go traffic and you can actually tell that it is heat soaked while sitting there, you have more important issues to deal with.

 

[kpt4321]

Actually, when you are stopped in traffic the FMIC is sitting in front of the 200 degree radiator with very little airflow to pull heat away from the two heat exchangers. The FMIC is not going to heat up to the same heat soak equilibrium point you'd see on an extended drap pull (because it's a damned high temperature and heat mass), but it certainly does not keep the core cool the way you want.

If you run air to water with a PROPERLY sized heat exchanger for the water at the front of the car, you're going to have the same issues, because there won't be a place to put it besides in front of the radiator....

 

[gixrman]

Actullay what I was thinking of doing was running 2 heat exchangers were the factor SMIC is and the same on the oposing side and one with a coolong fan with the final heeat exchanger being the one that supplys the AWIC with the coolest water. These are all just ideas and theories with the final goal of acheiving the coolest air charge.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Actullay what I was thinking of doing was running 2 heat exchangers were the factor SMIC is and the same on the oposing side and one with a coolong fan with the final heeat exchanger being the one that supplys the AWIC with the coolest water. These are all just ideas and theories with the final goal of acheiving the coolest air charge.

That wouldn't be enough suface area IMHO. Has anyone ever used the AC condensor? Its large and made to flow a fluid, albeit not water. It would be sleeper as hell and its free. And it has a clean install.

 

[bastarddsm]

use the evaporator as the core and a/c the intake air. that would be slick and waaaaaaay sub ambient temps.

 

[gixrman]

That wouldn't be enough suface area IMHO. Has anyone ever used the AC condensor? Its large and made to flow a fluid, albeit not water. It would be sleeper as hell and its free. And it has a clean install.

To much of an airflow restriction, flowing a fluid and flowing air is different. I believe its been talked about before about having the a/c cool the air and someone stated that the air passed by to fast to be cooled.
I may just try running a short section of double walled water filled tubing directly after the the turbo with cooling fins on the inside for the first 14" as a "pre-intercooler" AWIC with a heat exchanger.

 

[biglady112]

First off, I am in no way a newbie. I am fully confident and capable of my abilities with DSM's. With that said, serious and helpful comments welcome.

Alright. Getting ready to pick up a 95 GSX for the girlfriend. Already have tons of parts and the plan for the car. To squeeze the life out of the 7 bolt. Have 3 spare cars and a 6 bolt short block ready to build.

Anywho, I am thinking of letting her run a PWR air/water IC everyday. I know the syclone's and typhoon's run them everyday. I also know that there are a select few other cars that run these everyday. Now the car is going to be conservatively tuned for her daily driving. As we are going to be putting a GT-42 on it. This is her daily driver, and my race car.

What do you think for this setup. She won't be driving crazy as this is just a commuter for her. Not sure if I am going to run a full 4" exhuast, or a side exit exhuast. If I do the latter, I am going to have to get a p.o. box. As we have emissions and inspections. Car will pass, just not with a side exit exhuast.

Think car will be alright for a conservative tune. Will be running blue windshield wiper fluid in intercooler. Holds temps better.

Steve

 

[Defiant]

The nuisance comes of determining how to cool the intercooler water. More complication and weight than the proven air-to-air IC.

I don't know why you'd think windshield washer fluid, tainted with alcohol, will "hold" heat better than just water. It won't. And you don't want to "hold" it, you want to reject it. The water from the intercooler needs to be cooled.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51862

 

[Steve93Talon]

We're in the process of putting together a water/air setup for the street and strip. We'll be sure to post results as soon as it's on the road. We have a dual channel air inlet temp gauge so we can monitor temps before and after the IC. The keys to a good water/air setup are tank size, pump flow, and radiator size/design. So many people skimp on one of the three and then spread misinformation when it doesn't work well.

http://homepage.mac.com/stevestrzempek/PhotoAlbum19.html

 

[biglady112]

Been doind some thinking. Might just go with a spearco 2-216 core. It would be less trouble for my girlfriend. Plus if shepard can run one, than it will be ok for me. Plus a can mix nitrous to cool it down. Maybe upwards of a 150shot. But we will be getting the car soon, then the retarded turbo can go on.

Steve

 

[98TalonTSi]

I don't understand why people think going with an air to water intercooler is a nuisance, not proven, or worth it...
Before I decided on my PWR setup, I did a lot of debating and thinking. It's not as hard as many would think. There are some tricky parts, but to setting it up, but no need to reinvent the wheel, as you can get "kits" or follow other people's setup.
The two reasons I chose the PWR is price, and they offered a nice kit. For roughly the same cost of a large FMIC kit with piping, I got the barrel, pump, filler neck, plumbing, pipes, and heat exchanger (radiator, which also acts as a resevoir).
Defiant, I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but logical. The water is cooled with the same idea of how a car's antifreeze is cooled, through a radiator, but much smaller.
And it is proven that water transfers heat better than air.
A glycol mix can be used, be the HUGE gains and advantage over a conventional FMIC is the use of ice.
Russ Coxe's setup doesn't even have a heat exchanger. He just runs ice water from a resevoir to through the IC. Obviously not ideal for a daily driver.
I can't post my pics right now, but here's an Aussie site with an idea...
PWR

 

[biglady112]

Well I have a PWR on our race car. So I think one is enough. Plus it will be one less thing I will have to keep up with. I love it on our race car. But, just too much to deal with everyday. Have enough problems and other cars to look after. Too many dsm's of friends. But I would really love to do it. Maybe I will change my mind back once I have Ron Shearer build the manifold for the GT-42.

Steven