IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[Defiant]

I don't understand why people think going with an air to water intercooler is a nuisance, not proven, or worth it...

Don't look at me. If you'll read the thread I supplied, you'll see I was all for the idea. I'm very uncomfotable with most FMIC setups: I don't like the air coming into the radiator being pre-heated as well as obstructed (as though the AC condensor doesn't do enough of that), and I sure don't like the five-feet (and more) of intake distance. I much prefer the idea of a jacketed exchanger right in the path of a short intake, then a radiator for its water in where the usual sidemount was. But in reality, it seems to turn into a mess. Resevoired systems don't enter into my consideration, because drag-racing doesn't.

Defiant, I'm not trying to be a smart ass here,

Well, no. You shouldn't try this at home. I am a professional.

but logical. The water is cooled with the same idea of how a car's antifreeze is cooled, through a radiator, but much smaller.

I'm keen on how it works. It's how to get it to work that seems to be the challenge. Then, after complication, the cost enters into it.

And it is proven that water transfers heat better than air.

But when all is said and done, it's still air-cooled. The water's just moving the heat from one radiator to another.

A glycol mix can be used, be the HUGE gains and advantage over a conventional FMIC is the use of ice.

And there you're off the street, which again, isn't in my design criteria.
The thousands and thousands of cars out there with front-mounts don't have a problem with it, so I suppose I shouldn't either.

But I still do.

 

[98TalonTSi]

The reason I was making the post, was to show that I don't think there are complications with it. Especially with a kit from PWR, it's setup it up and go...and you're right nothing restricting the radiator.
As far as glycol, it doesn't bother me on a daily driver...you could use distilled water as well.
It's still air cooled, but much more efficient..in much less space.
I should've know you were a professional...

 

[gsxtacy]

I was thinking about a air to water aftercooler, and can't seem to find one that is compact enought to fit where the stock SMIC fits. I have seen pics in the Gallery so I know other DSMers have thought about/done this modification.


I am only considering this because my current FMIC hinders air flow to my radiator and I want my car to be as reliable/dependable as it was with the side mount.

Anyone?

gsxtacy

 

[DSM90AWD]

Why mount in the SMIC location
I'd place it where the UIP is currently to reduce the amount of piping.

You also realize that a air-water setup will need a separate radiator, pump, resevoir which will also cut airflow slightly, make things a bit tricky to mount and expensive.

Check out Spearco for some options.

 

[Steve93Talon]

I picked up a GMC Syclone water/air IC with heat exchanger for $150. It'll fit in the stock location, just have to mod the in/outlets. All I need is a $100 water pump and a $100 tank and some hose and I'll be ready to go. This IC will easily support 400whp on a Syclone/Typhoon. Spearco has a core (2-231) that should fit the stock location and will support 700cfm.

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/ic_liquidtoair.htm

 

[boostedinaz]

I was thinking about a air to water aftercooler, and can't seem to find one that is compact enought to fit where the stock SMIC fits. I have seen pics in the Gallery so I know other DSMers have thought about/done this modification.


I am only considering this because my current FMIC hinders air flow to my radiator and I want my car to be as reliable/dependable as it was with the side mount.

Anyone?

gsxtacy

If you car doesn't over heat it wont be any less reliable. Does it over heat? Have you tried to fix that before diminishing the performance of your car?

 

[Burnett03]

I was thinking about a air to water aftercooler, and can't seem to find one that is compact enought to fit where the stock SMIC fits. I have seen pics in the Gallery so I know other DSMers have thought about/done this modification.


I am only considering this because my current FMIC hinders air flow to my radiator and I want my car to be as reliable/dependable as it was with the side mount.

Anyone?

gsxtacy

fix the overheating problem and you will be ok. you'll hate the air to water setup. get some different fans for your radiator, new thermostat and you wont overheat

 

[Steve93Talon]

you'll hate the air to water setup.

Exactly what part will he hate? The greater cooling ability? The more compact size? Tha fact that he's no longer blocking the radiator? The practically non-existant pressure drop? I talked Tort into doing water/air over the winter, the car picked up over 3mph on the first trip to the track and pulls better than ever on the street, even with ambient water in the tank. You can choose to believe myths and misinformation, or you can learn the facts and realize why W/A is superior - at the strip and on the street.

 

[sting0004]

Exactly what part will he hate? The greater cooling ability? The more compact size? Tha fact that he's no longer blocking the radiator? The practically non-existant pressure drop? I talked Tort into doing water/air over the winter, the car picked up over 3mph on the first trip to the track and pulls better than ever on the street, even with ambient water in the tank. You can choose to believe myths and misinformation, or you can learn the facts and realize why W/A is superior - at the strip and on the street.

Touche salesman. I too have an uncle

I would suggest fixing the overheating problem with some new fans before going the water route. -Matt

 

[gsxtacy]

I am not "jumping" into doing anything. I merely wanted to know where I could find some info.

I plan on keeping my A/C, or I would have removed the AC condenser, I ducted the bumper cover and plugged up all the holes around the FMIC, I have a 170* thermostat, stock fans ( I hard wired the AC fan to a on/off switch ), Redline Water Wetter and 100% water, and under a 3rd gear pull my datalogger showed 215* by the end of third. WITH both fans on.

If I did a full 1/4 from a stop, my coolant temps would go to a bit over 220*.

Not cool with me. Hotter coolant=Hotter Oil=overall less reliability.

As much as I drive the car, I can easily fabricate a good reservoir with a drain ####, acquire a good pump to circulate the system, and plumbing the system, and intergrating some simple on/off switches should be cake.

I like how a much smaller Air to Water intercooler is more effecient than a noticably larger Air to Air.

I'll have to ponder and research some more, but I am seriously considering it. NM has seen 3 100+* days already this year, and its only June.

Anyone have/run a Air to Water setup that could comment?


gsxtacy

 

[Burnett03]

Exactly what part will he hate? The greater cooling ability? The more compact size? Tha fact that he's no longer blocking the radiator? The practically non-existant pressure drop? I talked Tort into doing water/air over the winter, the car picked up over 3mph on the first trip to the track and pulls better than ever on the street, even with ambient water in the tank. You can choose to believe myths and misinformation, or you can learn the facts and realize why W/A is superior - at the strip and on the street.

the lines he will have to run, filling it with ice water/water, running a "radiator" on some models.. I'd like to see hard evidence on great gains with a normal daily driver. Water to air is not needed on half of the cars in this site. Shepard and many others ran well into the 9s and 8s on a "simple" FMIC.

 

[gsxtacy]

Don't remember hearing about Shep driving the car everyday in 100+ summer temps.

Or sitting at rail road tracks idling, or cruising for hours on end.....or Driving to Dallas, Tx and back 3-4 times a year.

I am talking 100% Daily Driver capability. I know others can daily drive their car with a FMIC in front of their radiator, but for me a Air to Water will be better.

gsxtacy

 

[Burnett03]

Don't remember hearing about Shep driving the car everyday in 100+ summer temps.

Or sitting at rail road tracks idling, or cruising for hours on end.....or Driving to Dallas, Tx and back 3-4 times a year.

I am talking 100% Daily Driver capability. I know others can daily drive their car with a FMIC in front of their radiator, but for me a Air to Water will be better.

gsxtacy

1000's of people run fmics and dont overheat. fix your overheat problem. get bigger/better fans, thermostat, flush the radiator.. im assuming its overheating also because you are running the ac.

 

[thumper]

I think that the cheapest way to fix your problem is get some higher powered fans, capable of a higher flow rate. Although I like the air to water idea it is a bit more pricey than a fan or two. The ability to have greater than 100% efficiency speaks for itself, and as stated above pressure loss is no more if you were to put it in the stock uic piping area. If you did do this i would suggest reloacting the battery to the trunk maybe. That area would probably be sufficient for the cooler. Keep us updated on what you find out as I too am interested.

 

[Defiant]

I am not "jumping" into doing anything. I merely wanted to know where I could find some info.

Well, here's some;
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21589

 

[DSM90AWD]

I think that the cheapest way to fix your problem is get some higher powered fans, capable of a higher flow rate.

Not to mention a decent Radiator (one meant to cool high HP engines) like the Fluidine, Spearco or Griffin.

Out of curiosity what FMIC core are you running? Profile only says "custom"

 

[Wicked91rttt]

could i take a stock smic and weld an aluminum box around it and fill it with ice water to amke a water-air ic?

 

[dsm-onster]

try it! it would be only really useful at the track as it would suck having to keep ice on hand all the time . but it would be "cool" at the track. try it. I did a water to air intercooler on my 1985 T-bird turbocoup... I also went through 2 headgaskets and alot of down time . But i also was trying to make it my daily driver.

 

[Wicked91rttt]

no this will be a track only car, kinda along the lines of the "goodwill" car, everything iss stripped

 

[funniegus]

Sounds like a great idea, do you have any schematics?

 

[Defiant]

Well, we're fifteen years into DSMs. Have you heard before of someone making a winning setup which includes an icewater hopper to shroud the factory IC? Do you suspect you've stumbled onto a breakthrough, all these years later?
If you have an ice container about the size of the passenger seat, you might have some slight gains over air-to-air, until you heat up the water. The air coming out of the IC is hotter than the boiling point of water, so it may heat up smaller amounts rather quickly. And you'd want some kind of circulation other than simple dissipation as that may lead to localized boiling and a loss of transfer effectiveness.
Other racers are doing what works. They may all be dim, but I'd not put a lot of effort into trying to prove it.

 

[Steve93Talon]

I'll all for water/air, and when it's done correctly it's better even on the street than air/air. Using the stock IC, however, would most likely be a waste of time. What you're describing isn't really W/A anyway, you need circulation of the icewater to make it effective.

You can buy a stock IC from a GMC Syclone/Typhoon for like $100, it'll fit in the stock IC location with some tweaking of the in/out tanks. Then you'll just need a heat exchanger (we used a Honda Goldwing radiator), a water/ice tank (we got a 5 gallon fuel cell), and a pump (Jabsco makes 12v pumps designed for constant running - stay away from the intermittant duty ones! You should be able to put it all together for like $400 and it'll perform like a decent size FMIC on the street, then when you put ice in at the track and get sub-ambient charge temps, it'll blow air/air outta the water!

 

[jaredgsx]

i may not be a great car guy but what i do know is physics. If you are actually going to go through with this then using normal ice ( frozen h20) then you wont see any real gains over cool tap water. The only real way to push ice to its limit to get colder ice. How you do this is simple. Turn your freezer up to its max and put salt water in your ice cube trays. it will freeze at -5.9 . also if you use salt water it will take more to get it heated. Since its in such a small area still really wont be enough to last long. its a neat idea but i dont think it would be efficent

 

[gamingguru]

If you plan on running this car on the track only than I think that using a Water to air cooler is a good idea, it helps especially when the weather gets hot outside. The bad idea is using your stock sidemount and then welding a box of water over it. If you want to do it right that you should get something along the lines of a vortech igloo cooler. You could probable even mount it over in the location of the stock sidemount. I don't see your idea getting you any gains you couldn't have if you simple got a front mount.

 

[Defiant]

i may not be a great car guy but what i do know is physics. If you are actually going to go through with this then using normal ice ( frozen h20) then you wont see any real gains over cool tap water. The only real way to push ice to its limit to get colder ice. How you do this is simple. Turn your freezer up to its max and put salt water in your ice cube trays. it will freeze at -5.9 . also if you use salt water it will take more to get it heated. Since its in such a small area still really wont be enough to last long. its a neat idea but i dont think it would be efficent

And, it will lead to the next physical chemistry lesson: Corrosion.