2G How far can i go on pump gas?

[AlexGsxCummins]

So i did search and found 2 threads that wasn't much help. as far as i can tell i only have 92 pump gas around me, i currently have a 2g that i enjoy being able to dd or just hop in and cruise, it has a small 16g and im wondering if that alone will max me out on 92 pump gas, or is there a alternative i can use to run something bigger i wanted a hx35 with bep housing but i dont see a point if i can keep the small 16g and make the same power. I wanted to go e85 but the station is really far away sadly, so my questions, 1, how far will i get from 92 pump only, 2, is there any other options to let me run a bigger turbo and have my 10 second dream dd car?

 

[joejoe]

I would say 300-330ish hp. Depends on the rest of your set up and tune.
People have ran in the 10s with fp 3065 and fp 3586 and similar turbos, on just pump... but.... a) they drive like some bats out of hell. B) the rest of there set up is up to par. Also weight reduction.
Also Look into water/meth injection.

 

[doubleclutch]

I hit 300 on 93 last year. Added a front mount this year and expect to hit about 350 after i lean it out more and add some timing. That is with an E316G

 

[Silent_White]

tuned 33lbs on an extended tip 7-blade tdo6h on the dsm.
92 pump gas and meth injection, still had plenty of room to increase the boost but i don't want to spin the guts out of the turbo.

devils own meth pump and 1 gal tank, 2 7gpm nozzles in the throttle body elbow. fill the meth tank with window washer fluid (blue -20deg)

it should only cost ~$300 to piece your own meth system together.

 

[Silent_White]

also tuned an fp black @33lbs, 92 pump and the same meth setup. stopped turning it up due to internals limitations.

 

[AlexGsxCummins]

So when I did look into meth injection, I found alot of people saying dont run it because it can crack your piston, what do you guys think of that, because ideally I would like to run a t3 hx35 but then I was thinking is there even a point if I can already max out my 92 pump with this 16g, but if meth is not as bad as I read i would love to look into it more

 

[mrt0mjones]

2nd Methanol.

I'm running a 500 nozzle with a welded 16G and had plenty of room on the 550's with no knock.

I'd recommend it, but some favor ethanol. (stations are scarce in my area)

 

[Silent_White]

how many people said that it could crack a piston... and then how many people did you find that actually cracked a piston? and how many of those people actually believe that the cracked piston was due to misting window washer fluid in the intake?

The argument behind that is that all of the injected methanol doesn't make it to the 4th cylinder.. which is like saying that air doesn't make it to the 4th cylinder.

If that were actually the case, then EGT's and misfires on the cyl furthest from the TB would make the car un-tunable. That being the case, ANY nitrous shot that was not direct port injection would produce the same issue, and it doesnt.

 

[donniekak]

Multi port injection manifolds are designed to evenly distribute air to the cylinder, they are not a wet manifold. A mist of liquid has different characteristics that a gas. Every car I've ever messed with that was running meth injection had plugs that read differently from cylinder to cylinder.


Now if you go safe on the afrs and don't go much over pump gas boost and timing numbers you'll be ok. But it you go leaning on it like you would with race fuel or e85 it's asking for problems.

I would rate meth injection as a way to somewhat safely go halfway between pump gas and race fuel power levels. But it's not race fuel or e85.

 

[Silent_White]

so your trying to state that the manifold will cyclone the methanol mixture out of the air as it passes through.....

Multi port injection manifolds are designed to evenly distribute air to the cylinder

The methanol injection nozzles atomize the methanol into the air which would then be evenly distributed by the Multi port injection manifold. Unless you are stating that the mist in the intake manifold is so characteristically different that it is not carried by the air in the intake manifold. You also said that its not a wet manifold, however you are not attempting to flow liquid through it. We are discussing an atomized liquid which is suspended in and carried by the airflow. Airflow that is moving quickly and does not allow time needed for the atomized methanol to settle. It gets sucked into each cyl the same. Now when you need to start injecting meth at amounts larger than 15gpm, then you may need to convert to direct port injection as there is a limit of saturation.

I have pulled apart several engines running over 30lbs of boost with methanol in order to forge them, their cylinders all looked the same. I have tuned just as many without issues. I completely disagree that the plug in the furthest cyl looks any different than the one in the closest cyl, and I pull them at every oil change. 2 7gm nozzles, 33lbs of boost. been holding strong for the past 5 years and ran 52K miles with this setup.

Furthermore, there hasn't been any actual tests remotely suggesting that the methanol content is higher in cyl 1 as opposed to cyl 4. Unless you have any actual data other than you think your plugs look different....

Unless im unaware of some test that was done, does anyone have any data testing methanol distribution per cylinder at ~30lbs of boost while injected/atomized at the throttle body?

All that being said, op is pushing a small 16g and talking about an hx35, neither of which will pass the limitations of meth injection at the throttle body elbow.

 

[donniekak]

You can theorize all you want, I've read plugs in meth injection engines.

The manifolds aren't designed to evenly distribute a fuel air mix, so they don't.

You are also assuming 100% vaporization of the water/meth mix.

If distribution wasn't a problem, why make multiport meth injection systems?

 

[Silent_White]

I'm not assuming 100% vaporization. I'm stating that the minute distribution disparity between cylinders is irrelevant. Any disparity at the boost levels OP is referring to could be rectified by injecting slightly more methanol.

A 2.3L engine at 33lbs boost whose max RPM is 8000 should spray roughly 11.8gpm of methanol.

Running 14gpm worth of spray would counter any disparity referenced above, including non-perfect atomization; which should be implied.

Multiport injection systems are designed to deliver higher amounts per calendar. This exact concept applies to nitrous injection, which can be injected at the throttle body; while higher hp jets need a direct port setup.

 

[donniekak]

Most manifolds don't even flow air evenly.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/4g63-smim-test-pdf.138320/

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Most manifolds don't even flow air evenly.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/4g63-smim-test-pdf.138320/

Have any info by chance on the mod they did to the JMF drag to correct the turbulence on number 3 and 4 runners?

 

[ceedawg]

I will tell you this if that meth pump fails under boost and extreme razor edge timing advance you can say bye bye engine that was my fear so I switched to E85 for this reason.

 

[linuxjm]

As the other guys suggest add 50/50 meth mix and get a good tune..HP depends on how far tuner pushes it

 

[Silent_White]

I will tell you this if that meth pump fails under boost and extreme razor edge timing advance you can say bye bye engine that was my fear so I switched to E85 for this reason.

That's not true at all. You make it sound like the engine will bend a rod if the meth shuts off.. All that happens is you get some knock and it backfires, then you let off the gas. I had a fuse fail once, took me 2 or 3 tries before i figured out what was wrong, no damage at all.

Anyone ever had a pump fail and had a motor blow up? Does anyone even know someone that had that happen? or is it just a lot of people that believe everything they read and are afraid of running washer fluid as a result?

If anyone is interested, I also made a safety system that will drop you to wastegate spring pressure in the event that you have a meth failure. I designed to to work off of a float switch but could add additional components to monitor power at the meth pump or line pressure.

 

[Vegas Smith]

I don't personally know anyone that blew up their engine that way, therefore, nobody blows up their engine that way.

 

[Silent_White]

ever even heard of someone that has?

 

[donniekak]

http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...meth-injection-your-pistons-also-cracked.html

 

[Vegas Smith]

ever even heard of someone that has?

I get your point that it's probably not as common as people think, but you don't have to dismiss anyone who worries about it.

 

[Silent_White]

sooo... we have mike who claimed that meth was 100% responsible for an oem piston cracking on a motor that had been detonating for a long time... back in 2010. If you are going to push a stock block, you should at least tune it to not have any knock. We also don't know if the meth system he claims to be at fault was even functioning correctly. He also didn't provide details on any of the other failures he noted.

I encourage anyone who reads that thread to read the entire thread. Meth doesn't cause pistons to crack. If you are tuned for meth, then lack of meth would cause detonation due to heat. Detonation over a long period of time could cause a piston to crack. If you are too stupid to continue driving and putting your foot in the gas when you have that much knock, then the engine failure isn't the fault of meth, its the fault of the driver for ignoring knock. I've had a meth pump fuse pop.... its obvious when methanol isn't flowing. Furthermore, that was 7 years ago. You would have to completely dismiss the advancements in methanol injection failsafe options that are currently available. If deciding not to implement any failsafes and then completely ignoring the presence of knock, backfiring, and sputtering under boost...

If you are the type of person that forgets to fill the meth tank, install a float switch failsafe. If you want to monitor flow, install a pressure switch failsafe.

I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's fear of methanol injection, but a systemic failure in its design and usage that led to the cracking of pistons would be evident over the tens of thousands who use it. Pretty much everyone I know with a larger turbo is running methanol, including myself on multiple vehicles spanning the last 10 years I have been using it. Provided that you set it up correctly, tune your car correctly, and maintain the system, then you should be fine.

 

[GST with PSI]

You make it sound like the engine will bend a rod if the meth shuts off.. All that happens is you get some knock and it backfires, then you let off the gas.

Certainly wouldn't be the first or last rod bent due to detonation.

 

[donniekak]

My point is why spend a ton of cash on a complicated secondary fuel system? I run e85 with a flex fuel sensor. If I get different ethanol concentrations, my timing and fueling compensate automatically based on the maps I wrote in the ecu.

Anyone who tries to say that water/meth injection is as good as race fuel/e85 is wrong. Unless they are running methanol as their primary fuel, then it kicks ass.

There are guys in the 7's on pump e85 with 2.0's, where are all the pump + meth guys?

 

[C'LO]

I plan to run straight pump gas and move to ethanol for simplicity sake, and with a big enough turbo some people have put down decent numbers on 93 octane alone