How do I Add Torque ??

[LaserRST]

Originally posted by autronicDSM
what do you mean by "the easier the launch will be"? sure more torque you have the easier it is to get the car in motion but that's assuming you drive it like it's meant to be. not lunching it at 5k rpm. who cares if you make 100ft/lbs or 1000ft/lbs at lower rpms, if you don't have traction you will smoke the tires. i could be brain dead after a long day of wrenching so please explain what you meant

The point is to get off the line without wasting your entire first gear just getting the car off the line and wasting your clutch. This is what I was getting at. If you have more torque in the bottom end you dont have to launch your car at 5000rpm. This is especially important for FWD vehicles since traction is an issue, and you can use more of your gearing to get you to your quarter mile.

 

[TurBoGs-T]

Originally posted by DrZiplok


You are completely smoking crack here.

What our confused little streetracer needs is one or more of a) more traction (should have bought an AWD ) and b) better clutch control.

The entirety of his wheelspin problem is that he has too much torque and he can't control it.

Most of the rest of your post is just confused and unhelpful. Read more, spout less.

Yes i "Was" confused therefore i posted. But i have read over and over
"Don't give any technical advice unless you have first-hand experience on the subject"
Glad i didn't listen

(TurBoGs-T :Hi5: LaserRST)

 

[HighPsi91]

Originally posted by LaserRST
More torque does not equal more wheel spin...

 

[autronicDSM]

first you say "More torque does not equal more wheel spin...", then you go around and say "When the amount of HP exceeds the amount of traction thats when you have wheelspin." good job on contradicting yourself. more torque = more HP. now if TurBoGs-T goes and upgrades his turbo to make more torque guess what...he will still smoke the tires. and what your precious little formula skips is gear ratios. so what that engine makes 262ft/lbs...torque at the wheel is much higher. go here and read this http://www.car-videos.com/articles/horsepower_torque.asp

i'm still waiting for your explanation of being easier. so far you only said that if you produce more torque in the lower rpm you can move car forward and calculate hp and that's how dynos work...good job

 

[autronicDSM]

while i was typing post 29 there was few more replies...

go read that page i posted, if you have more torque down in low rpm you will still lose traction... i think we're beating a dead horse here or i'm really that tired

 

[LaserRST]

Well first off more torque doesnt automatically make more HP. You can harness more HP through modification such as larger valves, cams, intake, etc etc. Second gear ratios will be tuned and designed for the application of the vehicle since we are on a forum that talks mostly about one vehicle the gearing is relatively the same and we dont need to put in gear ratios. Thirdly a turbo wont help with bottom end torque. He will have to find more torque via air feul delivery, nitrous, CR etc. And lastly to explain how it is easier, well when you get the vehicle in motion with out wheelspin its easier on your parts for obvious reasons. You also have more through the first gear to run through. As I said earlier turbo cars are peaky with their torque curve, meaning they have little torque on the bottom but as the turbo spools it shoots up. You broaden that out and compensate for having to rev so hard to spool the turbo and spinning your tires the whole time just to get off the line in good time. Any way I would suggest do some reading as I cant put an entire semester of physics on this forum.

 

[DrZiplok]

Originally posted by LaserRST
More torque does not equal more wheel spin...

All other factors being equal, there is a torque threshold at which the static friction between tire and road is exceeded.

Once the threshold is exceeded, power transmission to the ground is reduced from ~100% (excluding assumed constant driveline losses) to a level that can be related to the dynamic friction between tire and road.

Until you find yourself in a situation where you develop so much torque at the higher driveline speed that the loss is acceptable, you're better off limiting the torque applied to the drive wheels to a level that doesn't exceed their static friction with the road.

Or, in plain English for those of you that are having a hard time with this; it's better to slip the clutch than spin your wheels unless you are using drag tires.

 

[autronicDSM]

"And lastly to explain how it is easier, well when you get the vehicle in motion with out wheelspin its easier on your parts for obvious reasons."

forgot about the explanation there big guy??? you know....you don't have to explain, you'll probably go off topic again and start writing something you've read in some book but you're not sure what it means. i'm in college right now so what i've learned in physics i still remember but seems like you post a lot of vague info that just gives people headaches from trying to figure out what it has to do with the previous post

 

[LaserRST]

Originally posted by DrZiplok


All other factors being equal, there is a torque threshold at which the static friction between tire and road is exceeded.

Once the threshold is exceeded, power transmission to the ground is reduced from ~100% (excluding assumed constant driveline losses) to a level that can be related to the dynamic friction between tire and road.

Until you find yourself in a situation where you develop so much torque at the higher driveline speed that the loss is acceptable, you're better off limiting the torque applied to the drive wheels to a level that doesn't exceed their static friction with the road.

Or, in plain English for those of you that are having a hard time with this; it's better to slip the clutch than spin your wheels unless you are using drag tires.

This is true when that certain amount of torque is applied in a certain amount of time. When we talk about it that way we move the conversation again to HP. Torque is not the enemy to traction, its HP.

 

[LaserRST]

Originally posted by autronicDSM
"And lastly to explain how it is easier, well when you get the vehicle in motion with out wheelspin its easier on your parts for obvious reasons."

forgot about the explanation there big guy??? you know....you don't have to explain, you'll probably go off topic again and start writing something you've read in some book but you're not sure what it means. i'm in college right now so what i've learned in physics i still remember but seems like you post a lot of vague info that just gives people headaches from trying to figure out what it has to do with the previous post

(sigh) I thought it was obvious... but to further go into it... when you spin your tires you put excessive wear on you tires(duh), the amount of force you put into your driveline, transmission gears, the heat that is transferred to your clutch. If you need more clarification on any portion on what I am talking about I would be happy to explain.

 

[autronicDSM]

no it was obvious before this thread started. i just thought you'd post some more funny off-topic #### and few fancy formulas


and by the way hp is a product of tq so it's tq that's enemy of the traction, not hp. you should know this, you posted the formula yourself... quit trying to impress people with something you think you know

 

[LaserRST]

.... I dont think I can help you. For a final word though the difference between torque and HP is torque is the amount of rotaional force measured in ftlbs and HP is the measurement of 550 lbs moved one foot in one second = 1HP. The difference is time. Torque isnt measured in time just force while HP has time factored in there. That is the big difference between the two. Torque is used to measure HP on a dyno, but when you dyno your wheels are already in motion so traction is never an issue. I really cant think of anything else to add but if you have a specific question about this I will answer it.

 

[autronicDSM]

alright then. so how hp and tq relate to each other, because you can't change hp with out changing tq and vice versa...or can you?

 

[LaserRST]

It is possible to increase HP without increasing torque. What you would have to do is increase your redline. We will go back to the first formula I gave..

HP = torque*RPM/5252

If your car produces 150 ftlbs of torque at 5000rpm you produce around 143 HP. If your able to bump up your redline to 7500 with the same amount of torque you have a max HP of 214 HP!! Thats a difference of 71 HP just by increasing your redline!! Think of torque as the amount of force putting your car in motion and horsepower as the amount of work it does, in our case getting it from 0-100+ MPH in a given time or a given distance. Hope this kinda clears things up.

 

[autronicDSM]

i know you can do that by increasing redline, maybe i should have been more clear. what i was arguing about was down in low rpm. increasing rev limit to 8000 does not affect power you make at 3k. when you perform a mod you usually increase both tq and hp all across rpm (usually, cams for example might lose some on lower rpm). i can see now your point that hp makes wheel spin because it does it faster (that's how i understand it) but let's say car makes 300hp at 3000 rpm and 300ft/lbs and let's say it will smoke the tires. by decreasing tq at that point to let's say 150ft/lbs it probably won't smoke em because tires will be able to handle that much tq compared to 300...right? BUT when you bump up tq to let's say 400ft/lbs you will still smoke em. that's all i was arguing about

last thought to justify my babling for today. i always been told that torque gives acceleration and horsepower gives you speed. you try to accelerate too fast (too much tq) and you smoke the tires.

 

[Stock90GSXT]

Originally posted by LaserRST
It is possible to increase HP without increasing torque. What you would have to do is increase your redline. We will go back to the first formula I gave..

HP = torque*RPM/5252

If your car produces 150 ftlbs of torque at 5000rpm you produce around 143 HP. If your able to bump up your redline to 7500 with the same amount of torque you have a max HP of 214 HP!! Thats a difference of 71 HP just by increasing your redline!! Think of torque as the amount of force putting your car in motion and horsepower as the amount of work it does, in our case getting it from 0-100+ MPH in a given time or a given distance. Hope this kinda clears things up.

im just throwing in my .02. what the guy you raced was saying when you have to much horsepower, he should have said to much HP/Torque for the car. Tire spin is common in the FWD cars, get some good hooking tires (drag slicks), you have the HP and torque, now you have to put it to the ground. Stiffer motor mounts I think will increase traction. Do some research on how to increase traction in the FWD cars. Once you increase your traction, you might have to start investing in stronger CV shafts, and a clutch if you hav'nt already.

 

[LaserRST]

You seem to have an almost clear understanding of the two. Remember the thing is that when "you accelerate too fast" you are actually talking about HP. In your own words HP gives you speed, and its the speed or rate at which torque is produced (HP) causes wheelspin. To redirect this back to the original post. The launch that he made spun his tires through two gears which in the end cost him the race. I would make the assumption that he moved his power band up by revving the engine and dropping the clutch. This is where enough torque is produced to get him off the line but because the engine is designed for HP the HP line leaped and spun his wheels (remember HP is measured by moving 550 lbs one foot per second = 1HP). The vehicle has too much Power causing wheel spin. If there was more torque on the bottom end there wouldnt be a need to rev the engine up so high allowing the wheels to pull the vehicle then HP will follow the torque curve and jump up as the turbo spools. The numbers I was thinkin about to bump up torque is in the bottom end of the power band. 400ft lbs of torque wont spin the wheels when it only has 50HP.

 

[mike9146]

Sigh....

If the guy would have just read *any* of the links offered in the Google search link I posted, we could have spared this whole argument about what torque is or isn't. It was a simple solution to a complex question, offering all the answers, but instead of using his brain, he decided to get all offended that I *only* showed him where to find the answer, and didn't hand it to him on a silver platter. Can we got a emoticon with a guy opening his mouth and someone spooning him? It appears that that is what the DSM world is coming to.

Mike C.

 

[LaserRST]

Originally posted by mike9146
Sigh....

If the guy would have just read *any* of the links offered in the Google search link I posted, we could have spared this whole argument about what torque is or isn't. It was a simple solution to a complex question, offering all the answers, but instead of using his brain, he decided to get all offended that I *only* showed him where to find the answer, and didn't hand it to him on a silver platter. Can we got a emoticon with a guy opening his mouth and someone spooning him? It appears that that is what the DSM world is coming to.

Mike C.

some times thats what it takes.... but to each their own. This is a dificult question to have an answer for here in the DSM world only cuz the answer isnt "bigger turbo", or "feul management".

 

[Wikkedson]

Its kinda pointless to ask questions like this on a forum anyway, It usually just ends up with a big arguement with 10 different people arguing their own views when they have no experience with tuning or even a basic knowledge of cars. Not saying all are that way.....

Then to make it worse.... Its like an on going cycle... The un experienced racer preaches to the newbies, then the newbies grow in their unwise ways to teach others at a later time. Eventually you have 5 million wanna be racers who dont even know what Horsepower is. When all that time, the answers were on the GOOGLE search.

Son of a pita.

 

[DSMJim]

Ok. NOW we are really beating a dead horse. We can all argue till were blue in the face which is all fine and good, a good arguement never seems to bother anybody on this board. I think TurboGS-T has his answer and this thread is going to the shits now.

Time to go...

 

[Dieselboy]

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[LaserRST]

*SMACKS DEAD HORSE SUMMORE*

This is a good topic.

 

[nine5raptor]

a lot of misinformation, but that is what life is, sifting through the junk that others leave behind.

btw 400 ft lbs tq making 6 hp will spin the tires.
Ff=NuS "maximum frictional force equals the normal force multiplied by the coefficient of static friction"
say you have 3300 lb car and uS=.50 with 12 in from the center of your halfshaft to the road. the maximum torque that can be applied to the halfshaft, with motion just impending, would be 1650 ft lbs. any more and the force exceeds the maximum static friction that can be developed by the tires in that given situation and you switch to kinetic friction (slippage)
horsepower will only give you and idea of how quickly you can move your mass, not how much power you make.

 

[Stock90GSXT]

the science of why the tires spin is needless information. its just nice to know. its obvious why his tires spin. you need to give him information on how to harness the power to the ground. If people tell him to look it up himself, then the people who know the imformation are selfish. Thats what this forum is all about, information. So any imformation you have is well needed here.