Horrible Miss

[XiKeiyaZI]

Alright, so here we are pulling the car onto ramps to check for indications of bad timing due to a RPM Band wide miss. Come to find out, the car barely wants to pull onto the ramps...Okay. Running a bit rich and great compression, so the timing has to be off. Sure enough I pop the lower timing cover off, line up the mark, I'm off perhaps, at most, a half tooth. Now, while I don't think this would make a major effect, I have to keep in mind that I am running with a decked head and block, so the center relation is a bit off as well as these adjustable cam gears. The Intake cam is Zero'd, but the exhaust cam is 2 small notches retarded. Nice. There's my timing issue.

So, is there a way to simply advance the cam gears without removing the timing belt? I figure if I did this as it is, it would advance the intake cam 2 tiny notches and zero out the exhaust cam. Also, as these are reground 264/272's on a decked head and block.. should they go more? I, unfortunately have no way to degree these cams....and would be fine with just zeroing them out but I'm afraid that they'll actually be retarded so much the car will lack mass amounts of power.

Any input would be great.

Note : Actually looking at the pictures now that I'm not outside being irritated, with the exhaust cam being naturally retarded but advanced as far as the timing notches....I'm off a full tooth on the exhaust cam, huh?

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Now, should I zero them both out and redo the timing and leave them zero'd, Or should I redo the timing with them zero'd and then rotate the entire assembly to put them advanced small notch or two? I suppose leaving them Zero'd until I can get a degreeing tool or hit a Dyno will be the best bet. The only other things I can wonder is if -this- would really make such a loss of power/miss as I've driven a car which was off a full tooth and it wasn't near this bad. Also, wouldn't compression be lower instead of 185PSi across the board?

Now, before I drive this into a field and burn it, or trade it for a Honda, I need to figure out exactly what the hell is wrong with it. It has a bad miss at ALL RPM's. It's stuttering. Smells rich. My Wideband has not arrived yet, however, via link I am cycling between -2/+2 Est AFR. The gas is old and she's low, so perhaps it's fuel condition?

Note, it's missing at IDLE.

- I have swapped the cas around as it was 180* out. No change.
- Tested all injectors. All good.
- Wires are Good
- Plugs are good.
- Haven't been able to test the coil pack.
- AFPR holds at 42psi, so it's not a fuel filter
- Fixed all vacuum/boost leaks
- Timing is correct now
- Car runs best when CAS is adjusted Counter-Clockwise
- Car has ZERO power. It doesn't want to move up ramps
- Resistor and Transistor wiring have all been wired correctly.

Now something about the resistor pack - The PO had 3 2G injectors and 1 1G injectors in the rail. Would this cause issues or possibly burn up the resistor pack? If it was bad, would the car even run at all?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

And just to update, I believe I've tested everything I can besides the coil pack...but for some reason I don't feel like that'd justify it having basically zero power, would it?

Note : Tested the coil pack... I believe it's bad. I also believe, however, that the proper wiring noted here http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g95-96M2.htm was bypassed and the CAS plug was wired up directly with the old 2G Cam Angle Sensor plug. I'm not sure yet, but we'll find out. Can anyone give some input on the stock plug locations so I can back-trace these wires and confirm everything is correct.

Also,

The spark coil signal is inverted. Looking at the coils, label each wire A,B,C,D. Change the spark plug wire locations: A is now C, B is now D, C is now A and D is now B. Another way to do this is to change the trigger wires to the coil, (3 wire triangle plug, next to the igniter). Switch the two blue wires. One is blue with red stripe, the other is blue with black stripe. The third wire that remains unchanged is black with white stripe.

Does this mean looking at the front of the engine and A being cylinder 4 and D being closest to the timing belt? If so, that would mean -
ABCD
CDAB

By the coil pack, reversed as so -
4123
3214
By stock values related to RRE's instructions -
A - 4, B - 3, C - 2, D - 1 ... So,
1 = D, 2 = C, 3 = B, and 4 = A

This would mean that, after the CDAB swap =
1 = B, 2 = A, 3 = D, and 4 = C which translates to...
This picture

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However since Link offer the ability to swap the signal wires internally with the Invert CAS Signal Option... there is no sense in following RRE's version save for just the wiring Diagram for the plug, correct?

What a waste of time on my part. Guess I just wanted to type that out to calm my nerves.

Anyhow, with Link I shouldn't need to swap wires at the ECU. I just enable the Inverted CAS options. However, the wiring at the plug itself could be incorrect, correct? However, the CAS was originally 180* out and I reversed that.. yet it made no difference. -snuff- I'm growing impatient.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

Keiya, I would wait for a wideband before you get all strung out right now. Have you checked the make sure all your fuel injectors are functioning properly?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

All injectors checked out fine. Pull a plug - Car bogs. Check my second post.... I'm already strung out Dave. Can't you tell by my wasting time typing out what most people already know?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Coilpack shows no resistance across the coils themselves and a little too much at the plug.. if that were so, how would the vehicle even run at all?

 

[MichaelSuch]

You have link right? Post a log. I've had 2 coil packs go bad. Both time it lost spark in two cylinders. Car had no power, idle would be around 500 rpms, and it wouldn't go above 3500 rpms. It ran really rich as well from unburnt fuel filling up in two cylinders. I don't think that's your case if you pull each plug wire and the engine bogs down each time you pull one. I guess it could be weak spark from the coils, but weak spark would probably be from the power transistor.

 

[deviousgst]

Bad maf?

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[XiKeiyaZI]

I have the filter off the MAF as the filter was too clogged to do any good. If I place my hand in the opening, the car wants to die, as it should. All MAF readings via link seem to be fine, but I suppose that's always a possibility.

Here is a log.

I'm leaning towards a coil,. but I don't think I'm checking the resistance correctly. -shrug- I'm going to toss on a new CAS when I get home just to cover that ground.

Here is the most recent log, already posted elsewhere on the boards.


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=129053&d=1319161672

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Swapped in a working CAS of the same style - Issue is still there. Down to it just being coils or the exhaust timing being off a tooth. I'll change the timing tonight, redo it just for safe measure. As for the coils I won't know on those for a few days. The car has absolutely no power. You can give it half throttle to move it forward and it wants to slowly accelerate. Suppose it'll be a combination of mechanical timing and ignition.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Bingo. Ran the car for 1:40, popped out the plugs. All are blackened (Not completely black, just the consistency of overly chocolate chocolate milk, and there is unburnt fuel standing on the pistons. Something is up with either my ignition or could it possibly be mechanical timing?

So we're down to that - I'm running rich enough to not burn all of the fuel in the cylinder. I have no power and bad misfire - Causes?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

#### this car. #### it in the ass. #### it. I'm burning it. I just did the timing 5 times, each time I attempted a different way and EACH time it ended up like the picture above. I'm done. I know the timing is the issue and I cannot get it right, after countless timing jobs and never having an issue, this is the payment?

I've tried lining up the cam marks perfect and then applying the auto-tensioner.
I've tried advancing the exhaust cam to set the exhaust further back
I've tried putting each cam half a tooth off.
I've tried putting the exhaust cam, zero'd out, further clockwise.

Each time, as soon as I pull the pin on the auto tensioner, BAM, they sit out of line, just like the picture in my first post.

So, does anyone have any insight for ANY of these issues, or are we all just stumped? Seriously getting sick of talking to myself here.

 

[snowborder714]

If you rotate the crank slightly so that the cam marks line up, are the crank/oil pump really far out, or are they still pretty much in line?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

The crank is in perfect position. If I rotate it 5 times, the crank will fall out 1 full tooth before the cams are aligned. I know about VFAQS stating to rotate the exhaust cam below the head plane and the intake cam above as the tensioner will want to pull the cams forward, but I've tried this about 5 times now and it still offsets me.

I'm wondering if the head and block being decked are screwing with it this bad.

 

[snowborder714]

I thought you were supposed to put both below the plane and when you tensioned the belt it'd pull them up. I could be remembering wrong as it's been a while since I've done a timing belt job.

I know nothing about timing after machine work, so I won't touch that one.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Redid it another 2 times. Now I have them within 1MM of perfect alignment. We're going to try this. It was lastly off by almost 2 teeth, this should be within tolerance. The machining of the head and block have obviously done this.

 

[volcomsnow245]

Sounds like a similar problem I had awhile back if you find it's not your timing or ignition let me know I had a A/F problem awhile back that ended up being a o2 sensor. There was alot of gas like your saying too.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

It was an 02 sensor?

I just tried changing MAFs as well. Idled smoother, it wasn't hunting for an RPM. It was still missing, however. Could you elaborate on your issue? Was it lacking power as well?

 

[volcomsnow245]

Pretty much everything you said but I had so much fuel in the combustion chamber that it was smoking grey . I had no power like it was just missing like insane and wouldnt drive at all I had to limp it home by like slowly letting the clutch out just to get up to 20mph. Changed the o2 everything went back to normal. You should check it. O and I did the same thing when I Changed the maf. I was told by a dsmer that the reason its missing and so much fuel is because the ecu cant moniter the a/f ratio so it trys to soak the cat in fuel to stop it from catching fire.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Hm. Interesting. I'll pick up an 02 and give that a shot.

 

[volcomsnow245]

wouldn't hurt lemme know how it goes.

 

[snowborder714]

For a quick check, you might be able to unplug the front and use the LC-1 and v3 to simulate the front sensor. Not sure where your LC-1 sensor is in the exhaust.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Still waiting on my new one to arrive, otherwise I'd ahve already done that. I'll give it a shot if it arrives before I can can a new 02.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Read up a few posts. Already swapped MAFS. Thanks for the input though.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

For the Record :

I believe the issue has been discovered. I am speaking with Bogus about the problem and it seems like it's going to be a very simple yet nerve-racking resolution. I'll be doing a video and write-up on this based on the results and outcome. Let's just say.. timing is a bit more complicated with a built, decked, and shaved engine.

 

[delta448]

Zero the cam gears, scribe a mark on the center portion of the gears that lines up with the timing mark on the cogged portion, use a dowel in the plug hole to find true TDC, install belt, pull the pin, adjust cam gears so that inner scribed mark on the cam gears will align as you normally would for a T-belt job.

From the look of your pictures above and the statement that the intake cam lines up, I'd guesstimate you'll be advancing the exhaust cam gear to about +4 to +6 degrees.

This will get you started, but you should degree them whenever you can.